Weapon choice.

[mh892]

What sidearm do you wear while on duty? What would be your choice of duty weapon?

Do you carry a security shotgun or rifle? What would be your choice of shotgun/rifle?

[darrell]

When I was armed I carried a Glock 22 .40 and a Remington 870 Shotgun..

[T202]

I use to carry a .40 Sig, now I carry a stainless steel coffee mug.

[Charger]

I use to carry a .40 Sig, now I carry a stainless steel coffee mug.

LOL Nice...

I carried a Walther P99 9mm when I was armed.. Currently I'm a mug Officer as well... I'm thinkin of upgrading to a full thermos here soon though.. ;)

[N. A. Corbier]

Originally, I was armed with a Motorola HT-1000 with an extended battery. It was heaver than the ASP and bullet resistant.

Then I was armed with a Smith and Wesson Model 10 .38 caliber revolver. That got switched out to a Taurus Model Hell If I Know .357 Magnum with .38 caliber amunition.

Never (officially) touched a Remington 870 with Federal Reduced Recoil buckshot.

I want, as indicated previously, the Springfield Armory XD in either .40 or .45 ACP. Florida gets the 9mm since Florida regulates what security officers may carry.

I also want the Remington 870 with Speedfeed Orange "tactical" buttstock, loaded with PepperBall brand 12ga less-lethal munitions. Its considered lethal force when we shoot someone with less lethals, but there's no law against deploying them against a suspect who still generates "fear of death or great bodily injury," such as those armed with melee weapons, or motor vehicles.

I also (heh) want a Bushmaster Patrolman's Carbine, 16 inch barrel with a quad rail handguard and VTOR (I think) collapsable stock. Throw a Surefire Millinium weapon light on the bottom rail, a EOTech Holo Sight on the handguard rail (M4A3 design), and those First Samco rail pads on the left and right rails.

I'd also like a Bushmaster Patrolman's Carbine in 16 inch barrel with a Sully Stock, M4A3 configuration with tritium post, quad rail with laser on bottom, 15 dollar plastic grip behind it, high powered weapon light on the side with thumb button, and an ACOG on the front rail.

:)

Did I mention I like Bushmaster?

[HotelSecurity]

I'd like to be able to carry & use pepper spray! Currently I'm "armed" with a walkie-talkie, Mini Mag flashlight & handcuffs. Oh yea, I also have a large set of keys :o

[N. A. Corbier]

I'd like to be able to carry & use pepper spray! Currently I'm "armed" with a walkie-talkie, Mini Mag flashlight & handcuffs. Oh yea, I also have a large set of keys :o

Can you carry a stick on your keys? Actually, scratch that. Get a keychain that has a weighted "Monkey Fist" knot on the end. You now have a key flail.

[mh892]

Originally, I was armed with a Motorola HT-1000 with an extended battery. It was heaver than the ASP and bullet resistant.

Then I was armed with a Smith and Wesson Model 10 .38 caliber revolver. That got switched out to a Taurus Model Hell If I Know .357 Magnum with .38 caliber amunition.

Never (officially) touched a Remington 870 with Federal Reduced Recoil buckshot.

I want, as indicated previously, the Springfield Armory XD in either .40 or .45 ACP. Florida gets the 9mm since Florida regulates what security officers may carry.

I also want the Remington 870 with Speedfeed Orange "tactical" buttstock, loaded with PepperBall brand 12ga less-lethal munitions. Its considered lethal force when we shoot someone with less lethals, but there's no law against deploying them against a suspect who still generates "fear of death or great bodily injury," such as those armed with melee weapons, or motor vehicles.

I also (heh) want a Bushmaster Patrolman's Carbine, 16 inch barrel with a quad rail handguard and VTOR (I think) collapsable stock. Throw a Surefire Millinium weapon light on the bottom rail, a EOTech Holo Sight on the handguard rail (M4A3 design), and those First Samco rail pads on the left and right rails.

I'd also like a Bushmaster Patrolman's Carbine in 16 inch barrel with a Sully Stock, M4A3 configuration with tritium post, quad rail with laser on bottom, 15 dollar plastic grip behind it, high powered weapon light on the side with thumb button, and an ACOG on the front rail.

:)

Did I mention I like Bushmaster?

You appearantly don't do much 'close up' security? LOL.
P.S. In FLorida a G licensee can carry the .38 cal. revolver, .380 or 9mm semi-auto. And if trained and required for the job, a security shotgun.

[N. A. Corbier]

If I pull a long gun, its going to be in the woods doing wild lands management and protection, or its going to be during an active shooter response.

I carried a .38 caliber and .357 with .38 rounds in Florida. :)

In WI, we can carry anything we can qualify to NRA Private Law Enforcement Regulations with.

[Taser]

Glock 21 currently, may be switching to a Kimber 1911 Custom Stainless TLE II soon. I use 230 gr. Federal Hydrashocks. My gun likes them and I like them too.

[Taser]

Oh yeah, no rifle and no shotgun. Though if I had a choice for a shotgun, I'd take the Benelli M2 Tactical. For a rifle, how about an HK416?

[ff000525]

I'd really like to see some reviews on the new Springfield Armory SOCOM II.
Its chambered in .308 (aka 7.62 NATO) and only weighs a few pounds more than a M16. I talked to a few military buddies and they told me that a .223 takes a few shots to drop someone, unless you get them in the noggin. A .308 would probably drop someone like a rock. I'd love to get my hands on a SOCOM, but alas, they cost about $2000 bucks.

[N. A. Corbier]

I'd really like to see some reviews on the new Springfield Armory SOCOM II.
Its chambered in .308 (aka 7.62 NATO) and only weighs a few pounds more than a M16. I talked to a few military buddies and they told me that a .223 takes a few shots to drop someone, unless you get them in the noggin. A .308 would probably drop someone like a rock. I'd love to get my hands on a SOCOM, but alas, they cost about $2000 bucks.

I've heard nothing but good things about the SOCOM series from SA. Everyone has AR fever. :) I like the M1A system, I had an M1 when I was a kid.

The only issue I can think of in an urban rifle situation is over-penetration. Remember, the .223 is designed to wound, not kill. The .308 is designed to kill. So, the .223 round's light weight isn't going through a trailer home like a .308 is.

But, up here, there's a case for the SOCOM. Just not in town.

[Ten32]

I'd really like to see some reviews on the new Springfield Armory SOCOM II.
Its chambered in .308 (aka 7.62 NATO) and only weighs a few pounds more than a M16. I talked to a few military buddies and they told me that a .223 takes a few shots to drop someone, unless you get them in the noggin. A .308 would probably drop someone like a rock. I'd love to get my hands on a SOCOM, but alas, they cost about $2000 bucks.

I've fired it! It's amazing, and the recoil system is just great. But what your millitary buddies told you about the .223/5.56 is not entirely true. At close to medium range, the .223/5.56 can actually be more deadly. It's all in ballistics, and what the mission is. I don't wanna start a big debate, but look up some ballistics reports for each cartridge and you'll see what I'm talking about.

Anyway, I'm in love with my HK USP 9. For larger calibers, I'm crazy about my Kimber Classic Custom in .45. Both are extremely reliable and never jam, as long as you take care of it and know how to shoot it!

As a concealed backup, I carry a .38 Smith J-Frame. All my weapons are loaded with hydra-shocks, because of thier expansion. Stopping power and the fact that they have 'less' chance of actually going through the target and hurting someone else, makes them a must in my opinion.

[Sierra 1]

N.A. Corbier,

No round is designed to "wound", especially a round that is to be used in an offensive weapon (rifle or in this case a carbine-.223 caliber). Without getting into a debate regarding external and terminal ballistics- the .223 caliber/5.56 mm creates a large permanent wound cavity when it impacts with it's target (soft tissue). There are benefits to using the .223 regarding over-penetration in urban environments (another discussion). Wounding is not this rounds purpose.

I replied to your posting due to your frequent replies to other members of this forum. You are obviously involved in private contract security work and regarded as knowledgable in the field. However, the topic of firearms and the selection/use of ammunition frequently refers back to the use of such weapons in a duty environment and the possible use of deadly force. Your statement regarding the use of the .223 is (in this case) incorrect. Again, do not take this the wrong way. I assume that a large amount of professionals in our field that post here regard your opinion as fact. When discussing or giving advice on the use of firearms, one must be very cautious.

My Opinion

[ff000525]

I have also heard that the 1st reasoning for the .223 was to wound. The arguement was that when you wound one soldier, you actually put three out of commission, 1 wounded, two to carry him. You then have a greater chance of taking all three out because many soldiers will risk thier own life to save a comrade. As opposed to one shot one kill. But I don't think you could ever get any branch of the military or LE agency to put that in writing. "Wounding" implies suffering, which implies torture, which implies allegations of inhumane treatment and unfair fighting.....

[Charger]

I've also heard of rounds that were designed to wound rather than kill, but I'm definately no expert so I won't try to debate the specifics of it. ;) FMJ isn't used for regular duty ammo, because of the over-penetration issue, and the fact that it travels through your target rather than mushrooming and/or ricocheting around inside it. Obviously, a FMJ round isn't going to cause nearly the same level of injury to a person as Hydrashocks and all the other 'good' rounds. So you could almost argue that FMJ rounds are just 'wounding' rounds.

Sierra:

It's not that we take N.A.'s statements strictly as fact, but he IS extremely knowledgable on most security/law enforcement subjects, and he usually cites other sources to back up what he says. Like I said, I'm no expert, so I'm not going to try debating the .223 with you. But rather than just coming in and saying "you're wrong", perhaps you could cite some valid examples we could see? :)

[ACP01]

.45ACP with high cap mags (models have varied
.25ACP as a hideaway (have carried .38, .32ACP also

[N. A. Corbier]

Ok, here's the rationelle behind the .223 being a "wounding" weapon, as explained to me by two Use of Force instructors. One being a former City of Detroit Firearms Instructor, and the other being a former City of Largo DT Instructor. I have found this line of reasoning on the .223 from several Discovery Channel shows. Keep in mind, this is referring to military ball ammo, which I want to say is M108, but I think M108 is 7.62mm

The NATO 5.56mm round (.223 +P?) creates a smaller temporary wound track than the 7.62mm. When struck with the 5.56mm round, the enemy does not immediately die. Other enemies will attempt to rescue the combatant. This will make 4-5 enemies combat ineffective. One shot, four litter bearers.

Now, the question is, is this a "wives tale?"

[Echos13]

ARs have always been the mainstay I think for any purpose. Though I really like the P-90. I got to hold one at a show last month. Always liked bullpup models. Has anyone seen the new .50 caliber in AR design. My brother bought one a few months ago. It kicks like a mule but it shoots pretty sweet.

http://www.gunblast.com/50Beowulf.htm

[OccamsRazor]

My increasingly worthless and erratic opinion...

If someone told me a caliber/round was 'designed to wound', and that I had to carry it, I'd tell them where to put it.

I go home after work.

If, Dog forbid, I have to throw rounds at a person, the only way they're going to be wounded is if I'm having an 'off' day, they're extremely lucky, or for some irrational reason, I decide to wound them.

Not likely, not likely, and not likely.

[Michael Ledgerwood]

Here where I work, we carry the S&W Sigma .40 :rolleyes: and currently use a Benelli pump action shotgun (not sure on model). We are supposedly switching to a yet undetermined rifle but that is meant to be seen. The Sigma for me has been good, but other officers tell me there have been a lot of problems associated with them. I guess we have gone through 3 versions of the weapon. We also carry pepper spray and used to carry the taser though the taser got taken away :confused: Oh well, Im just a guard not in management.

[ff000525]

What sidearm do you wear while on duty? What would be your choice of duty weapon?

Do you carry a security shotgun or rifle? What would be your choice of shotgun/rifle?

Ok, so we've gotten a little off topic on this one. Comparing apples to oranges, 9mm to .40, .223 to .308. Those are the issues that always come up when people ask what gun they should carry. So to answer mh892's original post I will say, the only handguns in my house are of the .40 caliber persuasion. The .40 is a heavier bullet (165-180 grains, personally I have 180 JHP in my XD and PT140), its proven to have the "knock down power", and its a good cross between a "fast, light" bullet like the 9MM and the "heavy,slow" bullet of the .45.
The questions to you are, how much do you have to spend, how often will you carry it, how long are your shifts, and what do you want to mount on it? I walked out the door with my SA XD for $500 flat after taxes. The only problem I've found is that its hard to find a left-handed holster for it with above Level I retainablity. The Glock 22 (.40) I looked at was $150 more, but much lighter (as in weighed less) (I am currently an unarmed guard so I wasn't really worried about the weight), which will be noticable when you've got it on your hip for an 8 hour shift. If you're going to be working 2nd or 3rd shift (or first for that matter), do you want the capablity to mount a light/laser on your gun, if so make sure that that the firearm that you buy has a rail that allows that, the trigger guard lasers are cheaper, but they've been known to become un-aligned (is that a word?) easier. So check your pocket book and if you are still really unsure, go down to your local gun range and rent a couple of guns, talk to a cop or two in your area and when you do get a gun, practice, practice, practice!

[dla4122]

I currently carry a MK-IV, but on a Bad Day a 37 mm with a full compliment of SKAT Rounds and multiple grenades! :D

[histfan71]

My personal choice for a duty handgun is a .45 ACP and I am partial to Smith & Wesson pistols. However Sig, Kimber, Springfield, and H&K all make fine products as well. I personally dislike Glocks and would only carry one if forced, but I think that Glock does make a quality product.

On Kwaj the Army dictates what weapons we may carry, so personal choice does not matter. We carry Beretta 9mm handguns, Remington 870 pump shotguns with both buckshot and slugs, and M-16's for patrol rifles.

We currently do not have any less-lethal shotgun round such as beanbags or "foam batons" but we are trying to get that changed. If I had my way, all the department shotguns would carry less-lethal only and our M-16's would be our only long guns.

Our SRT (Special Response Team) unit carries MP-5's in 9mm and I do not know the make or model of our sniper rifle.

[N. A. Corbier]

Probably a Remington, they're relatively cheap, easy to maintain, and match accurate. You can buy a sniper rifle now days at Wal-Mart, it just costs a bit more for them to special order the Remington 720 instead of the 710 they normally carry. :)

[HotelSecurity]

Probably a Remington, they're relatively cheap, easy to maintain, and match accurate. You can buy a sniper rifle now days at Wal-Mart, it just costs a bit more for them to special order the Remington 720 instead of the 710 they normally carry. :)

Wal-Mart is still selling rifles down there? Michael Moore didn't get through? :eek:

[N. A. Corbier]

I'm not at liberty to discuss my feelings towards Michael Moore and his sensationalist "journalism." Calling Bowling for Columbine a "documentary" is like calling that Insecurity thing on CBC a documentary.

[1stWatch]

I liked that one scene in that rather vulgar movie Team America where they depicted Michael Moore as a communist traitor to the United States and he blew himself up with dynamite attached to a vest. The whole movie was ridiculous, but that one scene was priceless.

[Special Investigator]

I carry, or have with me:

Glock 17 - 9mm
Armalite A2M4 - 5.56mm
Remington 870 magnum - .12ga (sabot 1oz slugs & 000 Buckshot)

[Arff312]

I Carry a Glock 19 9mm when i am working armed. If i need more power i have a H&K USP 45 that i can carry at higher threat sites.

[Mall Director]

I am old skewl..LOL.. my preferance, Springfeild Armory 1911 45. I am most familiar with this model..

Glocks scare me, you cant control the hammer! But I hear they are the easiest to clean and maintain.

[Lawson]

I am an HK fan through and through. I own/carry an HK USP .45 and it has just been a dream from day one. It doesnt require a lot of maintenance, I havent had any jams that were not operator error and it seems I can shoot straighter and more accurate than with any other gun Ive ever used.

[Dam Guard]

Glock 19c is what I am issued. We can't have a shotgun or rifle. :mad:

[Special Investigator]

I currently carry a MK-IV, but on a Bad Day a 37 mm with a full compliment of SKAT Rounds and multiple grenades! :D


MK-IV what? Are you LE? LE's don't use 37mm's.

????

[N. A. Corbier]

MK-IV what? Are you LE? LE's don't use 37mm's.

????

He's a sworn State of Texas correctional officer.

[Special Investigator]

He's a sworn State of Texas correctional officer.


Ah-h-h. Thanks. LEO's that I know usally use 40mm

[N. A. Corbier]

Ah-h-h. Thanks. LEO's that I know usally use 40mm

Yeah, the thing is, (If I remember correctly) he works for CCA, and is a contract correctional officer. Still sworn, etc, just works for CCA instead of the Texas Prison System direct. So, they may not want to have 40mm and the associated Destructive Device taxation with the things, and only keep gas on hand.

Between the two, I would rather pay the tax stamps and have 40mm rounds including Direct Impact. Nothing says, "don't make me kill you" like a 40mm foam baton to the chest.

[Special Investigator]

The 37mm threw me off. Thinking about it, 37mm does offers more of a variety of non-lethal products/munitions than the 40mm. I can see corrections personal useing it more now a days.

;)

[N. A. Corbier]

You can load 37mm rounds into a 40mm launcher, if I remember correctly. They'll fire just fine. Its just the problems associated with the fact a 40mm is a "destructive device," and the 37mm launcher is a "flare or signal gun."

I learned awhile back about legal civilian ownership of 37mm launchers and rounds, cause the concept of having a 37mm M203 clone on your M4 clone is rather cool. :) Totally legal in most states so long as the 37mm is never fired at a human target, or used to destroy property. You can gas and flare all you like, just never fire a projectile at a target.

I think the website that best explains civilian ownership of "flare or signal guns" is 37mm.com.

[FDG06]

Duty:
Beretta p92 9mm, 3 - 15rnd mags,
Patrol car - Rem 870 12 ga. & RockRiver M4 w/ 3 rnd burst.

Off Duty:
Springfield or Kimber 1911
NAA 25 BUG

BIG fan of the 45 acp in 1911 platform and would carry such on duty if ever possible...Yoda

[Charger]

I think I've posted it somewhere before on here, but I might as well do it again.

Don't currently carry, but when I did it was my Walther P99 9mm with the OD green frame. Still have it, still play with it whenever I can (evilgrin), just not armed at this site.
I'm also a fan of the HK USPs, and the S&W Sigma series.... Can't stand Glocks, as they just don't feel right in my hands... But that's just personal opinion.. I'm sure they're great weapons, or they wouldn't be so popular...

On a side note though, I recently visited Walther's website, and found out they're not offering it in the OD green anymore... They have a desert tan now instead... bastards! LOL :D

[Eric]

Carried a S&W 38, we even had 6 shots for it. :D

[cp73]

I currently carry a Glock 23, .40S&W, three standard cap. (13rds) mags.

I have carried:
Springfield XD 9mm, very nice weapon. I'm trying to get one in .45 now.
Ruger P95 9mm, POS.
Ruger P90 .45, actually not a bad weapon. I would carry another one no prob.
S&W Mod. 15 .38 revolver, probably the most accurate handgun I've owned so far.


Technically, as long as the company okay's it, and I can qualify with it, I can carry anything I set my twisted little mind on. There aren't any caliber, make, model, size limits here. I don't think I'll be carrying around a Desert Eagle .50, though..... :D

[SecureTN]

I currently carry,
One T-Mobile Cell Phone
One Cricket Cell Phone
One Motorola Radio, (No shoulder/Lapel Mic)
One Set of 15-20 keys
One Radio Shack Scanner
Latex Gloves
Hatch "Specialist" Duty Gloves.
Gerber Serrated Paraframe Pocket Knife.

I just want Baton, Spray, and Cuff's right now and I'd be happy.

[Special Investigator]

I currently carry,
One T-Mobile Cell Phone
One Cricket Cell Phone
One Motorola Radio, (No shoulder/Lapel Mic)
One Set of 15-20 keys
One Radio Shack Scanner
Latex Gloves
Hatch "Specialist" Duty Gloves.
Gerber Serrated Paraframe Pocket Knife.

I just want Baton, Spray, and Cuff's right now and I'd be happy.


How do they expect you to defend yourself? It shows your employer doesn't care if you get hurt or killed.

[N. A. Corbier]

How do they expect you to defend yourself? It shows your employer doesn't care if you get hurt or killed.

He isn't. He's supposed to not be confrontational, and if he does come under attack, to run away. If he gets hurt? Its his fault, he was told to not become confrontational.

[SecureTN]

Exactly. I am a "Visual Deterrent" only. I am only authorized any Use of Force if I personally come under attack, and have no viable means of retreat. Apparently I can also use Force to break up an assault on someone else... but how?

[N. A. Corbier]

Exactly. I am a "Visual Deterrent" only. I am only authorized any Use of Force if I personally come under attack, and have no viable means of retreat. Apparently I can also use Force to break up an assault on someone else... but how?
Beat them with your radio? :)

[SecureTN]

and then get in trouble for damaging company property.

[Special Investigator]

He isn't. He's supposed to not be confrontational, and if he does come under attack, to run away. If he gets hurt? Its his fault, he was told to not become confrontational.


Then why work a security job? If you have to run away, why be there?

[Jackhole]

Carry a Glock 21 at work, not sure what ammo we're using, I know it's Winchester hollowpoint .45 ACP. Looking at a Glock 36 for off-duty carry.

I have a shotgun right now, but I have to give it back when I'm done with the academy. The state says we have to qualify with it, but our department doesn't issue them.

[Jackhole]

Then why work a security job? If you have to run away, why be there?
Because the job of most security officers is to observe and report, but you already knew that, didn't you?

[HotelSecurity]

Then why work a security job? If you have to run away, why be there?

Because only a very very small percent of my job involves dealing with crime or criminals. Most of it is enforcing hotel rules, preventing & dealing with fires & safety issues. Most of these forums tend to focus on the crime & crime prevention duties which for some of us are not that big part of our jobs.

[Bill Warnock]

Because only a very very small percent of my job involves dealing with crime or criminals. Most of it is enforcing hotel rules, preventing & dealing with fires & safety issues. Most of these forums tend to focus on the crime & crime prevention duties which for some of us are not that big part of our jobs.
HotelSecurity:
Prevention should come before enforcement. Fire and safety issues reply upon education and prevention as you stated. I believe you will find methodology similar to crime prevention and crime scene preservation. If you know how to preserve a fire scene, the fire marshal's office can determine if it is arson, the wilful or malicious burning of property; a crime. The two professions often dovetail.
There is nothing worse than being responsible for screwing up a crime scene.
Several recent graduates of the police academy were fire marshal personnel; sworn law enforcement.
Enjoy the day,
Bill

[N. A. Corbier]

Because only a very very small percent of my job involves dealing with crime or criminals. Most of it is enforcing hotel rules, preventing & dealing with fires & safety issues. Most of these forums tend to focus on the crime & crime prevention duties which for some of us are not that big part of our jobs.

Something a lot of people fail to understand in contract security is that the security guard's job is NOT to enforce property (client) rules, deal with fires or safety issues, or otherwise intervene. It is to simply observe the situation and report it to the client.

Many times, I've seen uniformed security ask someone to stop smoking, and the person ignores them. The security guard's only recourse according to their company? Call the police. This is not a job for a police officer, folks. This is a job for an agent of the owner to tell the person to put out the cigarette, or leave.

[HotelSecurity]

Nathan

I have very limited experience in contract security & it was a very long time ago so maybe things have changed but at time I WAS required to take action when things were happening & even then & there most of my work was not concerning crime or crime prevention. We did punch clock patrols. I was always told that this had to do with fire prevention. It was in a sugar refinery. There were pieces of equipment that had to run 24 hours a day even when the refinery was closed down. If something stopped there were alarms. We were required to push the reset buttons on the machines. If they did not reset then we were to call the engineer that was on duty.

My other experience with contract was working at the Montreal Alouettes football games. We physically stopped people from running out onto the field etc.

[WKSecurity]

currently armed with a ASP 21" expandable baton(I love these) ,and my streamlight ultrastinger flashlight.

My weapon of choice would either be the 9mm Glock 18 :D(not practical but who gives a crap...lol) , .40 cal glock 22 or .40 cal Beretta 90-two

[Andy Taylor]

currently armed with a ASP 21" expandable baton(I love these) ,and my streamlight ultrastinger flashlight.

My weapon of choice would either be the 9mm Glock 18 :D(not practical but who gives a crap...lol) , .40 cal glock 22 or .40 cal Beretta 90-two

Glock 18 is not legal either, never mind the practical issues.

[officergossman]

What sidearm do you wear while on duty? What would be your choice of duty weapon?

Do you carry a security shotgun or rifle? What would be your choice of shotgun/rifle?

I would carry my fav handgun which is a Glock .9mm...now when it comes to vehicle rifle, AR-15 :cool:

[Lawson]

Many times, I've seen uniformed security ask someone to stop smoking, and the person ignores them. The security guard's only recourse according to their company? Call the police. This is not a job for a police officer, folks. This is a job for an agent of the owner to tell the person to put out the cigarette, or leave.

I wouldn't see a problem with calling the police so long as they are advised they are no longer wanted and are now trespassing should the party not comply.

[N. A. Corbier]

Here we get the problem of...

Police show up 30 minutes later, man is gone or is still standing there.
Police: "You want him gone, why?"
You: "He won't stop smoking, and the front desk says he has to go."
Police: "Sir, put out your cigarette."
*Man complies for police*
Police: "So, what's the problem?"

[Lawson]

Here we get the problem of...

Police show up 30 minutes later, man is gone or is still standing there.
Police: "You want him gone, why?"
You: "He won't stop smoking, and the front desk says he has to go."
Police: "Sir, put out your cigarette."
*Man complies for police*
Police: "So, what's the problem?"
Well, thats too bad, out here we would tell the officer we informed the smoker they are no longer welcome on the property and are refusing to leave.

[SecureTN]

My preffered would be a Smith&Wesson M&P .40 Caliber. Remington 870 Shotgun, and (however "unneeded") Mini-14 Ranch Rifle. (I'm gonna hear it on this one, lol)

[Lawson]

http://i14.tinypic.com/2dw8cbt.jpg

[SecureTN]

Does that come with the extended magazine or the standard?

[N. A. Corbier]

Does that come with the extended magazine or the standard?

Since all they seem to make anymore is LEO only, I'd say extended. :)

[N. A. Corbier]

My preffered would be a Smith&Wesson M&P .40 Caliber. Remington 870 Shotgun, and (however "unneeded") Mini-14 Ranch Rifle. (I'm gonna hear it on this one, lol)

Its not a money pit (AR platform), and the Mini-14 is a good weapon system. Although... If we went non-AR, I'd want a M1 SOCOM. :)

[SecureTN]

I've always been a fan of S&W, even used their cuffs(don't shoot me), and the Mini-14 has also been a personal favorite.

[Mr. Security]

Here we get the problem of...

Police show up 30 minutes later, man is gone or is still standing there.
Police: "You want him gone, why?"
You: "He won't stop smoking, and the front desk says he has to go."
Police: "Sir, put out your cigarette."
*Man complies for police*
Police: "So, what's the problem?"

No problem. Just grab a fire extinguisher and put it out for him. :D

[Lawson]

No problem. Just grab a fire extinguisher and put it out for him. :D

Or dabble some water on your head like you've been sweating and slowly walk in front of him, with your muscles tightened like youre about to get hit... be like, "I can't believe you're smoking at a time like this" .... "You mean you didnt hear about the gas line break in the back room?"

[HotelSecurity]

Well, thats too bad, out here we would tell the officer we informed the smoker they are no longer welcome on the property and are refusing to leave.

Exactly what I would do.

[warrior_oh58d]

S&W model 64 w/corbon 110grain .38spc +p at 1235fps thats right faster than a 9mm lol. Mossberg 500 w/hornady tap fpd 00buck and colt HBARII M4

[N. A. Corbier]

S&W model 64 w/corbon 110grain .38spc +p at 1235fps thats right faster than a 9mm lol. Mossberg 500 w/hornady tap fpd 00buck and colt HBARII M4

We did the Corbon +P and +P+ gimmick too... It compensated for the fact that we were only allowed to carry .38 Specials.

Who has you carrying a wheel gun with an M4?

[FederalSecurity]

What sidearm do you wear while on duty? What would be your choice of duty weapon?

Do you carry a security shotgun or rifle? What would be your choice of shotgun/rifle?


The sidearm that I use for duty at my main position is a Glock 22.

Recently though, I have been hearing some disturbing accounts about this

weapon system when used in the larger calibers. A couple of my instructors

have stated that they have had several Glocks fall apart after so many

rounds. Some of the issues were split barrels, split slides, and broken slide

rails. The duty weapon that I would choose would be a 1911. I would prefer

a Kimber model. As for my M4, I've recently upgraded from a smaller Surefire

Weapon Light to a larger Surefire Millennium M500A. I've also replaced the

EOTech with an Aimpoint.

[warrior_oh58d]

We did the Corbon +P and +P+ gimmick too... It compensated for the fact that we were only allowed to carry .38 Specials.

Who has you carrying a wheel gun with an M4?

It just depends on the site i work, we have a Nuke power plant down towards the coast which requires that you be armed to the teeth...i happen to prefer the wheel gun to an automatic (don't kill me please). You cant take a revolver out of battery, think about that....

[N. A. Corbier]

My problems with the wheel gun as a primary weapon:

- You usually get .38 Special, and .38 Special only. Other calibers are usually not authorized by state licensing bodies.
- You have six rounds. If you have multiple targets to engage, or you cannot engage the target in vital areas six times, you are out of ammo until you reload.
- It is heavy. Worse than 1911 heavy.
- It is huge. Worse than 1911 huge.
- It has high recoil potential. Makes it harder to train with, and harder to control the sharp recoil.

As a secondary weapon, its great. It never jams, never goes out of battery, etc. As a primary weapon, something that's less recoil, better ballistic performance (without overpenetration and with a larger dynamic wound cavity), and holds more ammunition (Not everyone is going to hit the target's 1 inch square. Especially since even with law enforcement, they hit only 6 times out of 10 according to an NIJ study) is better to me.

[ACP01]

Its not a money pit (AR platform), and the Mini-14 is a good weapon system. Although... If we went non-AR, I'd want a M1 SOCOM. :)

Due to the price differance if I were to go to the SOCOM I would go to the M1A SOCOM 16. The SOCOM2 doesn't seem to have enough extras to warrent an increace of about $1000. True it has a niftry Picanny forearm but that doesn't cost a Grand.

Also think about the AK-47 line. 7.62x51mm isn't as available as it once was whereas 7.62x69mm is everywhere you don't want to be. :rolleyes: Spare mags are easy to come by and inexpensive.

As to the Mini-14...a friend of mine has one for sell I have been thinking about. The biggest problems I have heard are price of the mags, NOT taking M-16 mags (pins in rear of mag well) and slowing reloads, some critical replacement parts are not available to the general public. On the other hand others claim they have no problems at all.

[N. A. Corbier]

AK's are great weapons. Reliable, manufactured the world over (If you've fought a foreign adversary in the past 50 years, you were probally being shot at with an AK!)

The only problem with the AK platform is that the media and other venues (Counterstrike, anyone?) have ingrained in past and present generations that AK == Bad Guy. PR nightmere right there if you don't handle it correctly.

As to the SOCOM II... Cheaper than Dirt. Rails. 20-40 bucks. Seriously. :) That huge rail platform makes it look like it'd be hard to get a good grip on the rifle, anyway.

[Special Investigator]

Also think about the AK-47 line. 7.62x51mm isn't as available as it once was whereas 7.62x69mm is everywhere you don't want to be.


In Wisconsin, your weapon choice shows your "intent" to the court if you have to shoot someone.

Example: If you shoot someone with a .45, you can face a homicide charge because a .45 is a "killing" caliber. If you shoot someone with a 9mm, chances are you will not face any charges because the 9mm is a "wounding" caliber. A prosacutor can, and often will say that because you used a larger, killing caliber, you intended on killing someone while if you use a smaller wounding caliber, such as the 9mm, it shows you did not intend on killing someone when & if you are forced to shoot someone.

The AK is a bad choice because it is a "killing" caliber. The AR15 uses a 5.56mm "wounding" caliber and a good defense attorney will use these facts in a courtroom.

Wounding calibers such as the 9mm wins in court.

[davis002]

In Wisconsin, your weapon choice shows your "intent" to the court if you have to shoot someone.

Example: If you shoot someone with a .45, you can face a homicide charge because a .45 is a "killing" caliber. If you shoot someone with a 9mm, chances are you will not face any charges because the 9mm is a "wounding" caliber. A prosacutor can, and often will say that because you used a larger, killing caliber, you intended on killing someone while if you use a smaller wounding caliber, such as the 9mm, it shows you did not intend on killing someone when & if you are forced to shoot someone.

The AK is a bad choice because it is a "killing" caliber. The AR15 uses a 5.56mm "wounding" caliber and a good defense attorney will use these facts in a courtroom.

Wounding calibers such as the 9mm wins in court.

Please direct me to a site or some sort of documentation that defines a 9mm as a "wounding caliber". There is no such thing in LE/Security as "shooting to wound". If I had a nickel for everytime someone said, "why don't you just shoot them in the knee?"... I would be wealthy man. Fact is, a 9mm is no less dangerous than a 45 cal. Both leave holes in the body, and last time I checked... any size hole is bad. If you have reached the point where you have no other option than to draw your weapon and fire, odds are it's for a darn good reason. At that point, I would be far more concerned with neutralizing the threat than I would be with "wounding" them. If they are trying to take my life or someone elses, then I react in kind.

[FederalSecurity]

I believe that deadly force is just that...deadly force. There are no

varying degrees of deadly force depending on what caliber was used.

[T202]

The only wounding rounds that I am aware of are rubber and beanbag.

http://mysteekmeg.buzznet.com/user/video/play/71525/

[ACP01]

The only wounding rounds that I am aware of are rubber and beanbag.

http://mysteekmeg.buzznet.com/user/video/play/71525/

These rounds are also deadly in some situations. Just ask the IDF.
They have had a lot of bad press because those shot with them at close range have died.

As far as one round being a "wounding" and another a lethal.....I guess most of the militaries in the world are using the 9mm because it is PC?

[GCMC Security]

Back in the mid 90's I went through a Non-Lethal Weapons and Tactics class with the Marine Corps. We shot a bunch of those rubber bullets at cardboard targets and they ripped the targets apart! Never seen their effect on the human body first hand but I dont think it would be a good thing up close.

[Curtis Baillie]

Back in the mid 90's I went through a Non-Lethal Weapons and Tactics class with the Marine Corps. We shot a bunch of those rubber bullets at cardboard targets and they ripped the targets apart! Never seen their effect on the human body first hand but I dont think it would be a good thing up close.Non-lethal weapons in the USMC? Doesn't sound like the Marine Corps I was in. :eek:

[N. A. Corbier]

Non-lethal weapons in the USMC? Doesn't sound like the Marine Corps I was in. :eek:

NATICK gives Marines fun toys to play with these days as part of their humanitarian peacekeeping role.

Marines have also tried out "sticky foam," microwave guns, laser dazzler weapons, and who knows what else...

[Special Investigator]

Please direct me to a site or some sort of documentation that defines a 9mm as a "wounding caliber". There is no such thing in LE/Security as "shooting to wound". If I had a nickel for everytime someone said, "why don't you just shoot them in the knee?"... I would be wealthy man. Fact is, a 9mm is no less dangerous than a 45 cal. Both leave holes in the body, and last time I checked... any size hole is bad. If you have reached the point where you have no other option than to draw your weapon and fire, odds are it's for a darn good reason. At that point, I would be far more concerned with neutralizing the threat than I would be with "wounding" them. If they are trying to take my life or someone elses, then I react in kind.

Fact is the 9mm is not as fatal as a .45! The prisons are full of gangbangers who survived 9mm wounds. You will not find many who survived a .45 gunshot. Do some research.

Most medium pistol calibers such as .38, 9mm, 5.56mm are concidered "wounding" calibers, plain and simple. Factors to be concidered are cavitation, penetration and caliber. Shot placement is another factor.

In the eyes of most courts, especialy here in Wisconsin, the 9mm & 5.56mm calibers are looked at as a wounding caliber. I'll give an example.....

A couple of years ago a security guard, armed with a .45, shoot and killed someone. Because he went armed with a .45 caliber, he was charged with intentional homicide. The prosacutor claimed that because he went armed with a .45 caliber, which is concidered a killing caliber, he intended on killing whomever he shot using that caliber. In the end he was found guilty.

Meanwhile, everyone I know who shot and killed someone using a 9mm caliber and was charged, was found not guilty or no charges were brought against them BECAUSE a the 9mm is not concidered a "killing caliber" and going armed with a 9mm, the court will look at it and say because they used a smaller caliber such as a 9mm there intention was not to kill, even though the shot was fatal.

Botton line....9mm wins in court!

Note: The 5.56mm was specificaly designed as a "wounding caliber".

[Charger]

Fact is the 9mm is not as fatal as a .45!

And yet the 9mm round has killed more people than any other round, outside of military service.


In the eyes of most courts, especialy here in Wisconsin, the 9mm & 5.56mm calibers are looked at as a wounding caliber.

Further proof that WI needs to SERIOUSLY review their laws. I've never heard of different calibers being referred to as more or less fatal, only having varying rates of "stopping power." If you want to talk about what types of rounds are more/less fatal, you need to look at the jacketing. FMJ rounds are normally considered "wounding" rounds, because they tend to pass straight through the target, thereby causing less internal damage than a JHP round that shreds and bounces all over inside. Most of the modern "PC" militaries uses FMJ rounds for this reason. And yet every LEO I've met, (and every armed SO for that matter) carries JHP rounds BECAUSE of that higher ability to stop the threat.

Bottom line: (Anyone who's been in LE work knows this) Make sure that you (and your fellow Officers) go home at the end of your shift.

Interesting note: In this neck of the woods, there is no requirement to carry a certain caliber for your qualifications. 9mm, 40, 45.. Doesn't matter. You either qualify for armed work, or you don't. Your weapon choice is up to you. Only exception is that some areas require additional certs before an SO can use a shotgun/longgun on duty.

[Curtis Baillie]

NATICK gives Marines fun toys to play with these days as part of their humanitarian peacekeeping role.

Marines have also tried out "sticky foam," microwave guns, laser dazzler weapons, and who knows what else...Give me an M79 grenade launcher any time, "guns up". "Sticky foam"....is that napalm? :D

[davis002]

Fact is the 9mm is not as fatal as a .45! The prisons are full of gangbangers who survived 9mm wounds. You will not find many who survived a .45 gunshot. Do some research.

Most medium pistol calibers such as .38, 9mm, 5.56mm are concidered "wounding" calibers, plain and simple. Factors to be concidered are cavitation, penetration and caliber. Shot placement is another factor.

In the eyes of most courts, especialy here in Wisconsin, the 9mm & 5.56mm calibers are looked at as a wounding caliber. I'll give an example.....

A couple of years ago a security guard, armed with a .45, shoot and killed someone. Because he went armed with a .45 caliber, he was charged with intentional homicide. The prosacutor claimed that because he went armed with a .45 caliber, which is concidered a killing caliber, he intended on killing whomever he shot using that caliber. In the end he was found guilty.

Meanwhile, everyone I know who shot and killed someone using a 9mm caliber and was charged, was found not guilty or no charges were brought against them BECAUSE a the 9mm is not concidered a "killing caliber" and going armed with a 9mm, the court will look at it and say because they used a smaller caliber such as a 9mm there intention was not to kill, even though the shot was fatal.

Botton line....9mm wins in court!

Note: The 5.56mm was specificaly designed as a "wounding caliber".

I appreciate the response, but you still have yet to provide any supporting documentation other than your word. No offense, i'm just fact checking. If WI does label the 9mm as a "wounding" caliber and the .45 as a "killing" caliber, all I ask for is some sort of supporting documentation stating that. Further, do you have any news clipping that discusses the story you mentioned above?

[Bill Warnock]

I appreciate the response, but you still have yet to provide any supporting documentation other than your word. No offense, i'm just fact checking. If WI does label the 9mm as a "wounding" caliber and the .45 as a "killing" caliber, all I ask for is some sort of supporting documentation stating that. Further, do you have any news clipping that discusses the story you mentioned above?
Many federal and state agencies have dropped the 9mm in favor of .357, .40 and .45 calibers. When you have to use extreme force, you don't want the bad guy to shoot back which in many cases that happens.
Many Special Ops folks in Iraq are requesting .45s and the Army is going to their wharehouses and reissuing the .45-1911A1 to supply them.
Enjoy the day,
Bill

[Special Investigator]

And yet the 9mm round has killed more people than any other round, outside of military service.

Further proof that WI needs to SERIOUSLY review their laws. I've never heard of different calibers being referred to as more or less fatal, only having varying rates of "stopping power."

FMJ rounds are normally considered "wounding" rounds, because they tend to pass straight through the target, thereby causing less internal damage than a JHP round that shreds and bounces all over inside.
9mm's are use more often in shootings than .45's.

I agree 100% that WI needs to "get up to date" with a lot of there laws. A lot has to do with the attitudes of our law makers. Most of the law makers have a anti-gun attitude and believe that ONLY law enforcement should be able have a firearm. Your "legaly" not allowed to protect your property with any force and protecting your life or the lives of others runs along a thin line.

Thats true about FMJ's. The type of "bullet" you use also will determine what, if any 'trouble' you might find yourself in.




I appreciate the response, but you still have yet to provide any supporting documentation other than your word. No offense, i'm just fact checking. If WI does label the 9mm as a "wounding" caliber and the .45 as a "killing" caliber, all I ask for is some sort of supporting documentation stating that. Further, do you have any news clipping that discusses the story you mentioned above?
I suggest doing some research yourself. Sorry, but I currently don't have the time to do the research for you. I go by personal experience and knowledge of those who found themselves in that situation(s) here in Wisconsin. I go by actual cases that I have knowledge of. Ask anyone who is a expert on ballistics, a 'gun-nut' at your local range, gun shop, police officer, etc. There is all sort of info on the net reguarding the 5.56mm being specificly designed as a wounding caliber, into on the 9mm you might have to do a little more looking. IN WISCONSIN, the 9mm & 5.56mm is concidered a "wounding caliber" by the courts and most prosacutors.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm



Many federal and state agencies have dropped the 9mm in favor of .357, .40 and .45 calibers. When you have to use extreme force, you don't want the bad guy to shoot back which in many cases that happens.
Many Special Ops folks in Iraq are requesting .45s and the Army is going to their wharehouses and reissuing the .45-1911A1 to supply them.
Thats the police. They are allowed to use any caliber their agency deems fit. They can get away with it. P.I.'s & security fall into a totaly different catagory in this state. The thing to remember is that the police can use whatever caliber they deem necessary.

Every state/jurisdiction is diffrent in attitudes in what caliber you use in a shooting.

The agency I work for is thinking of bumping up to .40's for supervisors but regular personal will still be restricted to 9mm......because 9mm wins in court.

[SecureTN]

Granted I am not an Armed Officer, and have limited experience using Firearms in comparison to some Officers on this Board... but the concept of live ammunition being considered a "wounding" caliber seems pretty strange to me.
Isn't that why they created Rubber Bullets, bean bags, and the like? Like I said, my experience is very limited, but that's my 2 cents.

[davis002]

I apologize, but I still disagree with the theory that the 9mm is a "wounding" caliber. I was unable to get in touch with one of the county attorneys in Milwaukee this afternoon, but I was assured that I would be contacted in regards to my request for information. I'm am by no means whatsoever going to call you a liar, but I feel this issue needs clarification from the sources you are citing.

I was however able to speak with a county attorney from my area that we have worked with in the past. When I explained to her the concept of a prosecutor charging a private person (security officer) with intentional homicide based whole or in part on the caliber of the weapon that individual used, she literally laughed on the phone.

She put it this way. If a private person is in a situation where another person intends to use deadly force and/or cause great bodily harm against them, then simply put that private person can respond in kind. Whether that private person uses a 9mm or .45 or even a .50 has no relevance. Bottom line... you are reacting to deadly force with deadly force. That person intends to kill you, and your life is at stake if you don't kill them first.

In response to your quote that "The 5.56mm was specifically designed as a 'wounding caliber". Honestly, you are right to a certain point on this one. The concept behind the smaller caliber 5.56 is this... On a battlefield, it is at times wiser to wound than kill. When you kill an enemy, you have taken one enemy out of the battle. When you injure an enemy, you have taken out up to three enemies... one wounded, two to carry that person to safety. Does that way of thinking always apply? By all means NO, and to any of you that have served any amount of time in the sandbox, I feel that you will agree.

Once I have heard back from the Milwaukee county attorney, I will expand on this topic. Until then, remember... if someone is trying to kill you, why on earth would you not respond in kind? Our goal at the end of the day whether we are Police Officers, Security Officers, or even bus drivers is simple... go home at the end of the night to your families and enjoy life.

[Special Investigator]

No need to apologize.

Like I said, the weapon you choose shows your intent in the eye's of the prosacutors. It is the attititude of the prosacutors, weather they think you intended to kill someone because you choosed to use a large 'killing' caliber weapon such as a .45 caliber instead of a smaller caliber such as a 9mm. It's different every where you go.

Any caliber can be a killing caliber if the shot is placed right. You can say a .22LR is a killing caliber with proper shot placement too. The 9mm, along with the 5.56mm was specificly designed to wound on the battlefield so it would take 2 other combatants off the battlefield who would have to tend to the wounded individual.

Just my silly 2 cents.....

[davis002]

the weapon you choose shows your intent in the eye's of the prosacutors.

That is exactly what I intend to confirm with the Milwaukee County Attorneys Office. The county attorney from my area is also very interested to hear if this is true, as she too has never heard of such a thing. Would I be overly shocked if this truly is a reality in Wisconsin? Absolutely not. At the current moment though, I don't believe it is nor do I believe it to be the least bit logical.

Just for giggles... Do you personally agree with it? If someone is trying to kill you, would you not want to neautralize the threat facing you rather than wound that person, which in turn gives them the opportunity to continue the attack? Simply wounding them does not mean that person will stop, and places you and those around you in even more danger.

[Special Investigator]

In my opinion, if you find yourself in a situation where you have to shoot, if possible, shoot to wound but in most cases you don't have the time or oppertunity to make that 'wounding' shot. It's usally a split-second decision to use deadly force. But every situation is different. I'm trained to shot "center mass". I also believe that I should be able to use any caliber I feel fit in order to stop the threat.

Also in Wisconsin, if you shoot someone, you will loose your firearm and you cannot get it back. This is wrong in my opinion especialy if it is a "good shoot". It makes someone decide to carry a cheap, possibly unreliable firearm.

[ACP01]

A .45ACP is more APT to kill than a 9mm but the 9mm is still a killing round.
Many Allied soldiers died in WW2 from 9mm.

There is a saying from WW1 that when the Germans came into the American trenches on raids (they usualy only carried their sidearms which were 9mm) and started shooting, the WOUNDED GI would draw his 1911 and KILL the German then troddle off to the aide station where he may still die but he would die knowing he killed the guy that killed him.

The larger temp and permanant wound channels from a .45ACP is what makes the differance . A heart, brain, or spine shot from either can/will kill you outright.

[gonzo1510]

As an armed guard/ Armored Car Guard in California, I carried a 9mm Beretta for about 10 years. For the last 8 months I have carried a Glock 22 in 40 cal.
The only reason I switched over was because I found the Glock to be lighter in weight even when fully loaded with high cap mags* and M3 light attached. I still carry a 2-inch Rossi .357 concealed* along with a knife. I will be switching over to the Glock 23 as a back up soon.

In regards to the 9mm vs 45 argument, there really is no arguement. Shot placement is more important than caliber. We recently had an attempted robbery with shots fired. Our guy shot two of the three suspects with a Glock 21 45 ACP. After it was over, one was in serious condition with major injuries, the second suspect received minor injuries and the third got away. The second suspect should have received major/fatal injuries, but was wearing heavy clothing so the 45 rounds didn't penetrate the clothing.

As far as the prosecutors go, when asked why you chose to use hollowpoint ammunition in whatever caliber, simply say that because law enforcement has found that this round is more effective in stopping threats which is why you are seeing a drop in the number of rounds fired in law enforcement related shootings as opposed to using ball rounds which can overpenetrate the target and hit a bystander.






* As an armored car guard in California, I am exempt from the 10 round limit on magazines and I am allowed to carry concealed without a CCW while on duty only.

[AlliedEMTguard]

For the company I work for now, my site is strictly not armed guard yet we are capable of using OC foam spray and cuffs.

Militarily, I have been trained in firing:

Berreta 9mm
Sig Sauer P226 Navy Edition in the 9mm(my favorite by far)
M4 Assault Rifle 7.62 NATO
M16A2 Assualt Rifle 7.62 NATO Full Metal Jacket
M249 Caliber SAW (smaller version of the M60)
M60
.50 Caliber BMG (by the way, its hella fun and no lie the BMG stands for big mofo gun)

[ACP01]

For the company I work for now, my site is strictly not armed guard yet we are capable of using OC foam spray and cuffs.

Militarily, I have been trained in firing:

M4 Assault Rifle 7.62 NATO
M16A2 Assualt Rifle 7.62 NATO Full Metal Jacket
M249 Caliber SAW (smaller version of the M60)


M-4 and M-16A2 in 7.62?!? How about 5.56?
The SAW is also a 5.56
There is a small version of the M-60 in 7.62 but it is not the SAW. Can't for the life of me remember its designator...M-???

[AlliedEMTguard]

I actually went back to my manuals and realized you were right. Sorry bout that i didnt mean for the mixup. When it comes to the smaller version of the 60, according to the book it is the M249.

[EMTjon]

I actually went back to my manuals and realized you were right. Sorry bout that i didnt mean for the mixup. When it comes to the smaller version of the 60, according to the book it is the M249.

I actually had this conversation with one of my co-workers last Wedensday evening - he did 2 tours in Afganistan. He said that the M240 is 7.62, and when carring that they could not engage an enemy with it, only vehicles... he said they could use it against other humans only if they had no other weapon (and that folks had gotten into trouble for using it before).

The M249 is 5.56 NATO as well.

The "rules of war" in the Geneva and Hague conventions is the nominal reason the US uses 9mm and 5.56 Ball or full metal jacket ammunition. supposedly hollow poit rounds are "not humane" for the battlefield, but OK for cops and everyone else to use :confused:

[GCMC Security]

M240g is the "replacement" for the 60. I don't think it's much smaller personally. The M60E3 is a smaller cut down version of the 60, that is seeing wide use nowadays especially in your more mobile units

[Special Investigator]

Once I have heard back from the Milwaukee county attorney, I will expand on this topic.


I suggest checking with Dodge, Washington, Jefferson and Walworth Counties. These counties do look at what caliber you use. In a lot of cases, Jefferson County will usally arrest you for going armed. They don't like armed security at all. They only allow armored car personel to operate in their county. (yea I know it is selective enforcement.) They don't care if you are licensed to carry. The reason they do is because nobody who has bees arrested for going armed has challanged them in court yet. If Jefferson County were to be challanged, they would loose.

Don't expect Milwaukee County to get back to you any time soon.

[ACP01]

The Geneva Conventions does not rule against hollow points but rather against Dum Dums. This is cutting an X in the nose of a bullet.

Also the reason the U.S. uses 9mm is compatability with other NATO armies.
The 5.56 was adapted as a short to medium range jungle, short action, light weight platform for jungle warfare. Neither has anything to do with hague or the Geneva Conventions.

[FederalSecurity]

Regardless of the lethality of the 9mm as compared to the .45, the best

method of covering your @$$ from legal troubles is to be certain that you

have properly utilized the training that your company or agency has given

you when the time comes to act. This way, if anyone with legal authority

comes to you and says "What in tarnation have you done?!", all you should

have to do is respond by saying "Look, I've done what my organization has

taught me to do. If you have a problem with my training, then talk to my

Training Officers and Instructors." If you were correct in how you responded

with force, any decent instructor would back you up in court.

[N. A. Corbier]

Ah! But, in the world of private security, 9/10 times, someone else (outside of your organization) trained you in how to shoot and certified you (to the state) that you can shoot.

Will those people back you? Anyone know of an instance where a firearms certificate instructor would back a student after a shoot?

Your organization usually gives administrative policies on when to shoot, etc, in compliance with law. But they leave the "how to shoot" to a certified freelance instructor.

[FederalSecurity]

Touche' N.A.! I guess I was assuming that a firearms instructor would cover

the Use of Force Continuum, at least the part that has to do with his

instruction.

[FederalSecurity]

By the way, N.A....What is your opinion on the 9mm being seen as a wounding

round? If I remember correctly, you are also from Wisconsin.

[ACP01]

Regardless of the lethality of the 9mm as compared to the .45, the best

method of covering your @$$ from legal troubles is to be certain that you

have properly utilized the training that your company or agency has given

you when the time comes to act. This way, if anyone with legal authority

comes to you and says "What in tarnation have you done?!", all you should

have to do is respond by saying "Look, I've done what my organization has

taught me to do. If you have a problem with my training, then talk to my

Training Officers and Instructors." If you were correct in how you responded

with force, any decent instructor would back you up in court.

Your in-house trainers would most likely be subpoenaed if an action were to go to trial. You outside trainers could be.
Your problem arises if you go against your training standards and/or equipment use. If you are issued weapons firing a .17WMR that is what your are required to use unless you have permission to use something else. If you are told if an event occurs to unload your weapon and use it as a club....(just examples folks).

[N. A. Corbier]

By the way, N.A....What is your opinion on the 9mm being seen as a wounding

round? If I remember correctly, you are also from Wisconsin.

No, I'm from Florida. I only live in Wisconsin. :)

There's a trial going on in Kenosha (where I live) right now that centers around if a woman was "criminally negligent" in discharging a 1911 into her sister. Its basically hinging around the fact she had no training with a firearm.

Forget attempted murder, they're going after criminal negligence because she purposefully shot someone and wasn't "trained" with a firearm.

[Special Investigator]

The Geneva Conventions does not rule against hollow points but rather against Dum Dums. This is cutting an X in the nose of a bullet.



aka, Split Jacket hollow points.

As far as I know of, ALL 9mm hollow point ammo I've seen on the commercial market have 'splits' in the copper jackets.

"Dumb-dumbs" are just that, hollow points, weather the jacket has splits in it or not.

[ACP01]

aka, Split Jacket hollow points.

As far as I know of, ALL 9mm hollow point ammo I've seen on the commercial market have 'splits' in the copper jackets.

"Dumb-dumbs" are just that, hollow points, weather the jacket has splits in it or not.

JHPs are indeed "split" but it is not a FMJ or soft nose with an X cut into it which is what a Dum(b)-Dum(b) is.

[casec1]

Taurus PT-111 Millenium 9mm w/ Winchester 147gr. JHP Little gun that packs a helluva punch. Loved it;gonna get a new Millenium Pro (PT-111) as soon as I get the money. My rangemaster said, "You're gettin pretty good with that little thing." :0)

P.S. The Taurus has a 3 & 1/4 inch barrel and will fit perfectly inside a Safariland Raptor II, as will a full-size Glock 17...

[T202]

Taurus PT-111 Millenium 9mm w/ Winchester 147gr. JHP Little gun that packs a helluva punch. Loved it;gonna get a new Millenium Pro (PT-111) as soon as I get the money. My rangemaster said, "You're gettin pretty good with that little thing." :0)

P.S. The Taurus has a 3 & 1/4 inch barrel and will fit perfectly inside a Safariland Raptor II, as will a full-size Glock 17...

I have one of PT-111 9mm Millennium also. It's not a bad gun however a full magazine has a loud rattle. Sounds like a pocket full of change when you're walking down the sidewalk. I don't want to sound like a know it all but Taurus doesn't recommend anything bigger than a 124 gr. FMJ so use care with those Winchester 147gr. :)

[investigator1usa]

I carry a Ruger P-95,Pepperfoam and either a expandable baton or 6-cell maglite.

[casec1]

I have one of PT-111 9mm Millennium also. It's not a bad gun however a full magazine has a loud rattle. Sounds like a pocket full of change when you're walking down the sidewalk. I don't want to sound like a know it all but Taurus doesn't recommend anything bigger than a 124 gr. FMJ so use care with those Winchester 147gr. :)


I've heard that about the 147 gr. round...At the range for PC832 certification, i fired 600 rounds of FMJ through it and it jammed once. I have probably fired at least 700 rounds of JHP thru it and it never jams or misfires with the heavier round...love the gun.

[Charger]

The PT-111 is also my wife's weapon of choice... (She has small hands, so it fits her a lot better than my Walther P99.. lol)

After playing around with it a bit, I'm considering carrying one as my backup. Thoughts on it as a backup weapon?

[T202]

The PT-111 is also my wife's weapon of choice... (She has small hands, so it fits her a lot better than my Walther P99.. lol)

After playing around with it a bit, I'm considering carrying one as my backup. Thoughts on it as a backup weapon?

I believe the gun is reliable enough, but it would depend on how you were going to carry it. Ankle or pocket holster, I would rather have a small hammerless revolver. But with a shoulder holster or smart carry, I would take the PT 111, more rounds. (They are fun to shoot, very loud bang.) :)

[Charger]

I prefer the ankle for carrying a backup... I can get to it a lot quicker than one tucked in a pocket or on my vest.. Duty gear tends to limit access to the trouser pockets, and you have to tear open your shirt a-la The Hulk to get to one strapped on your vest... :D

[ACP01]

Duty gear tends to limit access to the trouser pockets,

Yeah, I had to change my BUG from pocket carry when I rearranged my belt.

[N. A. Corbier]

I could never get to my pockets, honestly, in gear. My radio or my holster prevented it.

Florida prohibits security from carrying a backup weapon (unless exposed) and limits the number of firearms you may possess on duty (2), so I never carried one.

I would follow the "standard" test battery for where my BUG goes. That means drawing it from the standing, sitting, and prone positions, including on my back, on my stomach, and each side. With either hand, so that if one is out, I know the other one functions.

This will help you know if the holster and location will allow presentation of the weapon when you need it most: You're losing the fight and the bad guy is gonna f-ing kill you.

[PAofficer]

I work for a contract agency and we provide our own gear. My sidearms include Ruger Security Six .357 mag loaded with Federal .38 spl 158 gr swhp, Taraus PT 99 .9mm loaded with Federal Hydroshok or Nyclad +P's and a 1911 in .45ACP with Federal Hydroshok's in 230 gr. I still carry the revolver and never feel under armed. I know many people no longer believe in the 9mm and I understand the agrument invovled in the caliber issue. I train and feel that shoot placement is the real key issue. Enough said. Why do I have several to choose from, contracts end and new ones start and I might change weapons and duty rigs as the site requires. Also at times depending on the site and job you'll find a Mossberg 500 in the cab of the truck in an electric rack. I have used Mossbergs for over 30 years and find the operating system (thumb safety) easier to use.

[Charlie Fox]

I carry a Glock 19 loaded with Remington standard velocity JHP's. We have two Mossberg 500's but they're mostly safe queens (I don't know what we'd do with them anyway!)

As for the lack of 9mm power I'll just say what an old Navy Chief told me..."If I put two through your heart and one into your brain it really doesn't matter what caliber it is, now does it?"

Ole'

[doulos Christou]

Carried the Rossi .38 usually. I have carried a variety of handguns, read the other posts to see.

As far as what I would like to be carrying, give me a Thompson sub .45. I was looking at one of the old archive photos of my current company back in the 30's. Three officers by the truck, .30-.30 Winchester, Remington? 12-ga., and a Tommy Gun. Damn you, security board...

Honestly, I would prefer an HFN FNP-40 and a Springfield SOCOM II that I can alternate with a Benelli M4 in black...

[Mr. Chaple]

Will those people back you? Anyone know of an instance where a firearms certificate instructor would back a student after a shoot?

Several of the larger, more reputable fire-arms instructors will back up their training in court, if one of their students is involved in a lethal force situation, and acted in compliance with their training.
Massad Ayoob often works as a expert witness in self-defense trials. He will not only testify regarding his students but anyone who is forced to use justified lethal force.
His Judicious Use of Lethal Force classes are excellent for anyone carries arms and/or believes they may have to kill in defense of themselves/others.

[Bill Warnock]

Mr. Chaple both he and Retired Sgt Dennis Tueller are both excellent on the witness stand. They are a prosecuter's nightmare and a well prepared defense lawyer's dream come true.
I had an opportunity of reading transcripts of a trial pitting Massad Ayoob against a federal expert. The government's expert was chewed to pieces.
Enjoy the day,
Bill

[N. A. Corbier]

How many of you are getting your state security guard firearms permit from a celebrity (they're that big, they have celebrity status in the gun world) instructor, though?

That's what I'm talking about.

[Bill Warnock]

How many of you are getting your state security guard firearms permit from a celebrity (they're that big, they have celebrity status in the gun world) instructor, though?

That's what I'm talking about.
Nathan not trying to second guess Mr. Chaple train of thought but I believe he was pointing out Massad Ayoob's bona fides as opposed to your hometown range instructor. By no stretch of the imagination, are we casting aspersions at those men and women teaching the "art" of combat shooting or conducting courses of "shoot" "no shoot." These two gentlemen were instrumental in refining combat shooting at the FBI Training Academy.
You always want to learn from the best and if you got to trial, have the best in your corner.
Enjoy the day,
Bill

[Mr. Chaple]

I was using Mr. Ayoob as a specific example of a general type of instructor. The type who are willing to back up what they teach. Not necessarily him or anyone he has certified.
Although he does, personally, often testify for people who have not completed any of his programs.