Security/police video's

[davido]

Is this allowed, thought it might be fun and also a learning tool.
we deal with alot of skaters, so I like to see them get busted up and bloody. :D

[davido]

I was going to post that one, the guard goes a little far but the skater did touch him first. when I deal with them I ask them to leave and if they don't I go inside and call PD and have them arrested for trespassing.

http://media.putfile.com/hosting83

[Arff312]

Ok i have a few problems with your original post. First off i used ot skate and BMX as a kid and guess what i was also a Police And fire Explorer captain. I have never been in trouble with the law and never disrespected any guard or any one. Niether did any of my friends. So your approach seems to be extremely hostile. If you like to see people get busted up and bloody maybe you should be working in a jail. I never get into fights with skaters or BMXEr etc... Most of them dont want to fight if you ask them not to skate on your property many will say ok and stop. I dont even kick them out i just tell them hey man you cant be skating on mall property. Many of them appoligize and leave on there own or they go into the mall and shop. You dont have to get confrontational with them all the time. Remember you are a security guard not a cop and just skateboarding is not a crime. If they are just riding through on the sidewalk not doing tricks leave them alone they will eave. If they are doing tricks then advise them they are not allowed to if they say **** off or something then escalate. But your attituide that all skaters are evil and so one as other posts have said will just get you hurt, sewed or fired. Please take into account that they are kids who are chosing a recreational activity rather then drugs. Also dont talk down to them treat them like adults. As some are I still ride a little amd im 20 if a guard gets a attituide with me i will take his name and badge number and call his agency. Remember you represent your company, clinent and all other officers so dont give a bad image.

[davido]

Ok i have a few problems with your original post. First off i used ot skate and BMX as a kid and guess what i was also a Police And fire Explorer captain. I have never been in trouble with the law and never disrespected any guard or any one. Niether did any of my friends. So your approach seems to be extremely hostile. If you like to see people get busted up and bloody maybe you should be working in a jail. I never get into fights with skaters or BMXEr etc... Most of them dont want to fight if you ask them not to skate on your property many will say ok and stop. I dont even kick them out i just tell them hey man you cant be skating on mall property. Many of them appoligize and leave on there own or they go into the mall and shop. You dont have to get confrontational with them all the time. Remember you are a security guard not a cop and just skateboarding is not a crime. If they are just riding through on the sidewalk not doing tricks leave them alone they will eave. If they are doing tricks then advise them they are not allowed to if they say **** off or something then escalate. But your attituide that all skaters are evil and so one as other posts have said will just get you hurt, sewed or fired. Please take into account that they are kids who are chosing a recreational activity rather then drugs. Also dont talk down to them treat them like adults. As some are I still ride a little amd im 20 if a guard gets a attituide with me i will take his name and badge number and call his agency. Remember you represent your company, clinent and all other officers so dont give a bad image.

the skaters I come into contact with are skateing on private posted property,and it's posted in plain site and they know it, there is also an city ordinance, so for awhile I would go and say in a nice voice, there isn't skateing here you need to leave the area.... so I get the Skater attitude **** you etc etc.....So now I do it different. anywho they cause about 50,000 dollars damage a year to the granite around our property, and there are at leaste 5 skate parks in the area.

[Arff312]

I know at least where i lived and maybe we were the minority when we were asked to not skate or ride someplace we simply left and found another palce to ride. We didnt give the **** you attitudie or anything but then again maybe we are one of the few. We were respectful and would often build our own ramps and stuff on our own property. Well my point is that not all skaters are evil and alot of times if you ask nicely they will leave. But there are those who need more then just asking to ge the job done.

[N. A. Corbier]

Watch this one, you can really learn something from it:

http://www.guzer.com/videos/guard_vs_skater.php

(I envision that this is the way "The_Mayor" acts. http://forums.offtopic.com/images/smilies/kekekegay.gif)

I found this video useful the first time I saw it. Wasn't the guy just an idiot, the one who tried to put the armed (with a skateboard) skater in a headlock, failing miserably?

If your going to engage someone, for whatever lawful reason, know how to do it, and recongize that a kid with a skateboard is armed. That kid would of been a canidate for OC if he had to go, with me, but in that incident, he didn't have to go down yet.

[The_Mayor]

HAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAAAAAHAHAAHAHAHA ROFLMAO...Thats a cool video :D

I didn't witness any misconduct on part of the Officer. Its all just your opinion that he was out of line.

Kicking skaters off of private property.....wow sounds like a dirtbag to me :rolleyes:

I wouldn't have argued with them..if the skater touched me first.. then i would apply a wristlock, restrain him, and make an arrest. I'd love it if they were taping it....just documents that I was assualted first and that I defended myself. :D

[The_Mayor]

It's official - you now have ZERO credibility here. Not that you had any to begin with...

You wanna talk credibility? Are you an emt, a firefighter, a wannabe cop..a security officer what the hell are we even supposed to call you?!?!?! :confused:

Not to mention that you say that you dont "care" about your work! :rolleyes:

[The_Mayor]

I'm all of the above. EMT/Firefighter = volunteer. Aspiring cop Oh yeah, so your just a superhero huh?! Fight fires, ride in an ambulance, secure property, enforce the law....yeah thats credible I beleive that :rolleyes:


(Lord knows what yours are, making 10 bucks an hour working mall security at your age).

You already tried baiting me with that. I'll let you know.. I make $ 13.75 an hour...and I do my job honestly and I care...maybe I'm 'lil passionate about my work...but at least I care. You dont care... and you dont deserve your job.


I'm not going to try to be a cop until I finish my degree - something you'll never know about. Yes, college!

I'm in college j**k off. The only difference is that I do my homework when I'm at home...and I actually work at work.....give it a shot sometime. :rolleyes:



Stealing someone's property when he had no right to do so,
Its not called stealing..and btw I dont know of anyone who has the right to steal. Its called "confiscation ". Look up the definition college boy. :D



pushing the skater and then punching the kid back when he tried to fight him instead of just restrain him? Those were all the right things to do?

I wasn't there..you were not there..none of us here were there. We saw a choppy videotape which did not capture everything. If the Officer beleived that he had to strike one of the subjects in order to neutralize him.. so that he could deal with the other subjects..then that is his discretion.

But here you are playing monday morning quarterback..blah..blah...blah your talk is cheap. If you actually dealt with perps more often...you would relate......but you.. No your off in some corner doing your math homework. :rolleyes:

[Arff312]

[QUOTE=The_Mayor]Oh yeah, so your just a superhero huh?! Fight fires, ride in an ambulance, secure property, enforce the law....yeah thats credible I beleive that :rolleyes: [Quote]

Ok im gonna step in here and say this. I am a FULL TIME Firefighter and i work part time in security. Yes i will probasbly wind up being a cop and volunteer firefighter. Why becuase i enjoy both. Yes it is credible and i have the certs to prove it. You know what i am also excellent at both y you ask because i stirve to be the best i can at all i do so before you go saying that it isnt likely or credible for some one to be a firefighter and security think again. Am i trying to save the world no im trying to better myself for the carrers i adventually want. Dont take this as me taking sides i just dont think it is fair to critize someones choice of professions.

[N. A. Corbier]

You know, I'd comment, but its definately tl;dr.

There is only one thing I will note, though. Not all states require a square badge. (I had to look up what the hell state uses those things.) So, The_Mayor may not have a square badge to turn in.

That's about all I can comment on, because the rest of it is just argument.

On the other point, a security officer is a private citizen, and has no police power of confiscation. As I've said before, taking cigarettes from children, taking skateboards from "punks," both are petit theft, and the other person has the legal RIGHT to use force to retake them.

A good illustrative point is a disarm attempt. Police officers usually have a felony law stating that it is a felony to attempt to deprive them of their weapon or communication device. They may arrest on the spot for your attempt. PRIVATE CITIZENS, it is grand or petit theft ONLY, you have the right to defend yourself from the attack, recover your lawful property, and possibly detain the individual for the petit theft.

In Florida, guess what? You cannot arrest (There is no common law arrest, only common law felony detainment) someone if they try to take anything but your gun or radio. Why? Radio is felony theft, and the firearm is felony theft. Anything else, all you can do (until the new law) was recover your property then RETREAT. Now, you can stand there and beat them down till they give it back, I'm told.

Up here, in Wiscosnin, the definition of citizen's arrest is any ordinance violation, misdomeanor, or felony committed in your presence, about to be committed, or with the probability that they will recomitt it. (Which, in case law, several off duty police officers acting as private citizens used to arrest DUIs)

I'll quote something from spetactical over on officer.com: Always remember, you are one decision away from death, unemployment, or prison.

[The_Mayor]

Yes, I know this. It was sarcasm. I work in a state where badges have to be square. We realize they look absolutely ridiculous, so we simply don't wear badges.

Your company probably has badges..they just dont want to embarass themselves and have you wear one. :D

On the west coast we have a higher minium wage..we even have a fast food restaurant where the starting wage is $9.25. Seriously, its called In-N-Out...if you lived here thats where you'd work.

I only say this to show that the cost of living is high is the Bay Area and I do make $13.75 an hour!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! hahahhaahhahahahahaha :D :eek:

[Charger]

^^^ Agreed... that guard was WAY out of line with the comments he was making... if the caption at the top is correct "was fired for unprofessionalism", I'd be glad... THIS type of behavior is the reason that security gets such a bad rap these days... Unacceptable.

[The_Mayor]

I don't work for a company, perhaps you've erroneously directed this comment to someone else? :confused:

Oh...ok so you dont work for a company because no security company will hire you...I cant say that I am surprised. :rolleyes:

So this religous college just put a uniform on you..and... Abracadbra your a "security guard"? :confused:

Do you even have a certification?

It sounds like your more of a security secretary to me:..you never do anything.. no patrol...just sit in a booth....your just there to call the cops if something happens?

Sounds proactive to me. :rolleyes:

[The_Mayor]

You say that you dont deal with perps because its a religious college and the kids dont misbehave that bad. You never encounter any subjects? I mean: no drunks wander onto the campus and start trouble, no skaters ever...etc...

What goes on during your shift..is there anything that you have to deal with per se? I'm just curious..I mean, hey..if you dont have a lot of action thats kind of a good thing...means your more safe. :)

[Bill Warnock]

I have been fascinated with the conversations regarding mall security and what a private security officer can confiscate from people visiting the mall. N.A. Corbier is on the money stating a security officer could rightly be arrested on a complaint filed by a person from whom the goods were taken.

Any security officer knows he has the same powers as an ordinary citizen. Those powers or additional policing powers will differ from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.
Are rules of behavior, possession or control over contraband and prohibited items clearly posted at all entrances to the mall? Are penalties clearly defined? Contraband by definition is anything that is illegal to possess by anyone at anytime.

Questions that should be of interest to the security officer may include:
What do the officer?s patrol or stationary post orders state as to what he his span of control of mall visitors (invitees)? The orders must be plain and clearly worded. They must be signed by an ?official? of the company.
Do the security officers fully understand the orders? Understanding of such orders are functions of both the security company and mall management.
If there is a serious infraction of posted mall rules or a series of nuisance infractions, mall management at its discretion, can issue the perpetrator a temporary or permanent debarment letter. A copy of the letter is journalized with the local jurisdiction, and depending upon state or commonwealth law, posted at all entrances to the mall. If the subject of the letter enters the mall, local law enforcement is notified and the individual can be arrested for unlawful trespass.
The jurisdiction along with mall management where the security officer performs duties will determine what actions should be taken as regards to possession of contraband or prohibited items on mall property.

Enjoy the day,
Bill

[N. A. Corbier]

I have been fascinated with the conversations regarding mall security and what a private security officer can confiscate from people visiting the mall. N.A. Corbier is on the money stating a security officer could rightly be arrested on a complaint filed by a person from whom the goods were taken.

Any security officer knows he has the same powers as an ordinary citizen. Those powers or additional policing powers will differ from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.
Are rules of behavior, possession or control over contraband and prohibited items clearly posted at all entrances to the mall? Are penalties clearly defined? Contraband by definition is anything that is illegal to possess by anyone at anytime.

Questions that should be of interest to the security officer may include:
What do the officer?s patrol or stationary post orders state as to what he his span of control of mall visitors (invitees)? The orders must be plain and clearly worded. They must be signed by an ?official? of the company.
Do the security officers fully understand the orders? Understanding of such orders are functions of both the security company and mall management.
If there is a serious infraction of posted mall rules or a series of nuisance infractions, mall management at its discretion, can issue the perpetrator a temporary or permanent debarment letter. A copy of the letter is journalized with the local jurisdiction, and depending upon state or commonwealth law, posted at all entrances to the mall. If the subject of the letter enters the mall, local law enforcement is notified and the individual can be arrested for unlawful trespass.
The jurisdiction along with mall management where the security officer performs duties will determine what actions should be taken as regards to possession of contraband or prohibited items on mall property.

Enjoy the day,
Bill

Not sure how they do it up here, yet, but in Florida, the debarment letter is called a "Notice and Warning of Trespass," and can only be issued by a law enforcement officer, in the presence of the subject. This is how it works, which is hilarious to me, because the statute indicates that the LEO is NOT the one issuing it:

You have someone who needs to be removed. You call law enforcement. Law enforcement arrives, detains the individual. You then instruct the person that they are not wanted on the property, not allowed to return to the property. Then, the law enforcement officer writes a form, sets a specific amount of time till the person can come back, and enters it into the incident report on the laptop. The person is then let go.

Things that astounded me are:
1. State statute indicates that the property owner must warn (and remove) the trespasser. It gives statutory authority to the property owner (or agent) to do so, as well.
2. Nowhere in statute does it give the police the authority to limit the amount of time the subject is prohibited from returning, yet police departments usually issue a trespass warning for 30 days only.
3. A trespass warning is valid only when a LEO is present to witness the warning. Nowhere in statute does it require a LEO's presence.

So, to write a form, you have to call the police, hope the guy is still on property when they get there, and hope the officer believes that you have a "good reason" for removing the individual. Because if you don't, he won't write the form.

[The_Mayor]

EMTFirefighter, thats cool that you work such a safe atmosphere..I bet were you work the students talk to you..and its nice working a more relaxed environement. I'm a little envious.


I have been fascinated with the conversations regarding mall security and what a private security officer can confiscate from people visiting the mall. N.A. Corbier is on the money stating a security officer could rightly be arrested on a complaint filed by a person from whom the goods were taken.

I dont know if this is neccessarily the case. I have only confisicated an open alchohol bottle..and the drunk did not call the cops on me to complain and get it back. I dont plan on ever confiscating anything again though. When I go to baseball games at the Oakland Collesium (I go to like 5x a year) I always see Security Officers confiscating laser pens. When you walk in there are signs that warn not to bring them in and that specify the criminal statute that prohibits pointing them in the players eyes. I never see any cops giving the laser pens back, or warning Security not to confiscate. But then again my eyes are on the game.

In the case of skaters, if there are muncipal codes in place that prohibit skating on private property..then I would think that you could confiscate the skateboard and return to the owner once he is one foot of the property. I wouldn't do this...but I cant see how it would be illegal to confiscate in this circumstance.

Like if a there were a few skaters on the property and some business owners and citizens complained...I couldn't imagine a cop showing up (when the skaters are in violation of the law) and warning the Security Officer for doing such a good job at stopping the problem. I'd envision the cop kicking them off the property, then having the Security Officer return the boards back to them.

What do you think?

[jmaccauley]

I'll step in here at this point. EMT and Mayor, you should both be fined for unsportsmanlike conduct. Please knock it off and act like adults.

[The_Mayor]

I'll step in here at this point. EMT and Mayor, you should both be fined for unsportsmanlike conduct. Please knock it off and act like adults.

Thanks for the help Jerry. :)

[Bill Warnock]

As a corollary to N.A. Corbier?s piece above, a case of mall security or the lack thereof made it way through the court system. The crux of the suit against the mall was the perimeter signage and placement of CCTV cameras. The signs stated the mall property was patrolled by security and surveillance system was in place. A woman was viciously attacked in the mall parking area. A shopper ran into the mall to report the incident to mall security and another shopper used a cell phone to call 911. Two other shoppers managed to scare the attacker off. Mall security officers did not go to the scene of the attack.
The woman later died in hospital. Her husband sued the mall for not providing adequate security in that shoppers were assured of reasonable security due to the posting of signage and the presence of a CCTV system.
In disclosure phase, it was learned mall security did not patrol the parking area and both the signage and cameras were place there as ?deterrent against mischief.? The mall management stated shoppers were not to infer from the signage and cameras they had assurances of reasonable safety of their persons or property. Further it was disclosed the security officer?s written patrol/post orders forbad security officers from leaving the confines of the mall for any reason. Disruptions in public order within the mall or those in the parking lot were to be reported to the local police. The orders, printed on plain bond paper, were neither signed nor dated. Further, phone numbers for local police and fire departments were not contained in the orders. Additionally, many cameras were dummies, monitors were either in disrepair or never turned on beyond initial installation and the security console was never manned by security personnel.
The suit was decided in the husband?s favor. The insurance carrier declined to pay damages due to the mall?s ?unreasonableness to foresee events or make unwarranted assumptions with regard to safety and security.?
The insurance carrier subsequently paid damages because the court wrote in judgment the carrier had reviewed mall?s documentation in its entirety, determined legal sufficiency and subsequently insured the mall.
It is a lesson for all of us in the security profession; if you advertise security, provide it, for failure to do so is done at your peril.
Enjoy the day,
Bill

[N. A. Corbier]

EMTFirefighter, thats cool that you work such a safe atmosphere..I bet were you work the students talk to you..and its nice working a more relaxed environement. I'm a little envious.



I dont know if this is neccessarily the case. I have only confisicated an open alchohol bottle..and the drunk did not call the cops on me to complain and get it back. I dont plan on ever confiscating anything again though. When I go to baseball games at the Oakland Collesium (I go to like 5x a year) I always see Security Officers confiscating laser pens. When you walk in there are signs that warn not to bring them in and that specify the criminal statute that prohibits pointing them in the players eyes. I never see any cops giving the laser pens back, or warning Security not to confiscate. But then again my eyes are on the game.

In the case of skaters, if there are muncipal codes in place that prohibit skating on private property..then I would think that you could confiscate the skateboard and return to the owner once he is one foot of the property. I wouldn't do this...but I cant see how it would be illegal to confiscate in this circumstance.

Like if a there were a few skaters on the property and some business owners and citizens complained...I couldn't imagine a cop showing up (when the skaters are in violation of the law) and warning the Security Officer for doing such a good job at stopping the problem. I'd envision the cop kicking them off the property, then having the Security Officer return the boards back to them.

What do you think?

Sitting in a parking lot, right now, a few blocks from me is a security vehicle from an unarmed "security and janitoral company" which will remain nameless, with a Federal Signal PA-300 siren in it. This is in violation of Wisconsin law. Will the police do anything about it? Probally not.

A police officer has the authority to decide how and where he will enforce what laws, usually. He may (and will, at times) overlook a misdomeanor violation if it serves the greater good.

As far as the Oakland Colloseum, they may be acting at the direction of a law enforcement official, which gives them more power than ordinary citizens. Or, they may be relying on custom or implied consent. You are denied entry if you possess this, so therefore, you are "asked" to give it to the security department to gain entry. If someone refused, they would most likely be ejected - but get to keep their laser pen.

I can imagine a cop showing up and giving a security guard a hard time for doing anything, including telling the kids to leave. Because all three parties are human beings, subject to politics, personal preferences, etc. I've seen police officers try to play politics against other LE, security, even the fire department. I've seen security officers try to politic the police, etc. Usually it just creates a roadblock that we have to dismantle.

But, on the other end, I have seen the sergeant and two entire squads of local police treat security officers AS police officers, to the point that they call the ones they trust on their cell phones to request assistance or backup when the police are in trouble, or need additional manpower. Is the security officer working for the client then? No. But, its been done before.

[jmaccauley]

Not sure how they do it up here, yet, but in Florida, the debarment letter is called a "Notice and Warning of Trespass," and can only be issued by a law enforcement officer, in the presence of the subject. This is how it works, which is hilarious to me, because the statute indicates that the LEO is NOT the one issuing it:

You have someone who needs to be removed. You call law enforcement. Law enforcement arrives, detains the individual. You then instruct the person that they are not wanted on the property, not allowed to return to the property. Then, the law enforcement officer writes a form, sets a specific amount of time till the person can come back, and enters it into the incident report on the laptop. The person is then let go.

Things that astounded me are:
1. State statute indicates that the property owner must warn (and remove) the trespasser. It gives statutory authority to the property owner (or agent) to do so, as well.
2. Nowhere in statute does it give the police the authority to limit the amount of time the subject is prohibited from returning, yet police departments usually issue a trespass warning for 30 days only.
3. A trespass warning is valid only when a LEO is present to witness the warning. Nowhere in statute does it require a LEO's presence.

So, to write a form, you have to call the police, hope the guy is still on property when they get there, and hope the officer believes that you have a "good reason" for removing the individual. Because if you don't, he won't write the form.
The reason there has to be a law enforcement officer to write the trespass warning, is that the criminal charge is "trespass after warning." Without a legitimate warning ( signs are rarely considered, unless it's a construction site), the case can't be prosecuted successfully.

[Mr. Security]

Its all just your opinion that he was out of line.

..if the skater touched me first.. then i would apply a wristlock, restrain him, and make an arrest. I'd love it if they were taping it....just documents that I was assualted first and that I defended myself.

With statements like that, the skateboarder's attorney would have a field day during your deposition. Hope your employer has great insurance :D

[N. A. Corbier]

The reason there has to be a law enforcement officer to write the trespass warning, is that the criminal charge is "trespass after warning." Without a legitimate warning ( signs are rarely considered, unless it's a construction site), the case can't be prosecuted successfully.

My problem with the warning system is that you get police officers who do not believe that you should be removing the person, for whatever reason. The statute is based on a legal right of an owner to control their property, through themselves or their agent. Just because the responding LEO hates writing trespass forms dosen't mean that the property owner's right to remove a person should be infringed.

Several street level officers in different municipalities informed us a year or two ago that if we have to call LE to remove, that 775's statutory authority to use force to terminate trespass was "debatable," and that the security officer who removed the trespasser "will probally go to jail."

You can see my issue with it when someone in LE starts twisting the statute to remove the property owner's authority under 810 and 775.

We had agencies that would successfully arrest and prosecute for Trespass After Warning if we issued the warning, filled out our own warning form, took a polaroid picture of them at the scene, and had their DL information. We would detain for the offense, (Not sure if it was a lawful detention or not, honestly, but PCSO, HCSO, and TPD counted it as lawful) have the paperwork ready, and the person would be then arrested by TAW.

[bigdog]

just antagonizing someone is no excuse to assault them. do u really think if the cops showed up u could say he was messin with me so i hit him and it be justified force?

[Bill Warnock]

Bigdog. If we use the reasonably prudent man theory to enforce the rules, ordinances or laws set forth for a particular space or place, duely journalized in the local county having law enforcement jurisdiction, we surely have met established standards of conduct. If however, you walk up to a man and whisper into his ear about his wife or mother that is offensive and he reacts as you had hoped, then you are the aggressor and have no legal standing. Reckless endangerment along with simple assault would be yours to defend against.
Enjoy the day,
Bill

[bigdog]

Bigdog. If we use the reasonably prudent man theory to enforce the rules, ordinances or laws set forth for a particular space or place, duely journalized in the local county having law enforcement jurisdiction, we surely have met established standards of conduct. If however, you walk up to a man and whisper into his ear about his wife or mother that is offensive and he reacts as you had hoped, then you are the aggressor and have no legal standing. Reckless endangerment along with simple assault would be yours to defend against.
Enjoy the day,
Bill

in florida you can only use force to defend your self so if i came up to u and call ur wife a bitch and u hit me you would be guilt of battery.on the other hand i wouldnt have commited a crime.

[N. A. Corbier]

in florida you can only use force to defend your self so if i came up to u and call ur wife a bitch and u hit me you would be guilt of battery.on the other hand i wouldnt have commited a crime.

Please reread FSS 775, Use of Force. You may use force to:

- Protect yourself from attack
- Protect another person from attack
- Use force to terminate criminal or tortious interference with property

The last one is the basis for using force to terminate trespass, or to detain someone for a violent felony. By using force to detain the individual, including force to overcome their resistance, you are protecting yourself and the public from further attack, and protecting the offender from the ever increasing amount of force that would need to be used to terminate their attack.

These principles are documented in plain english in the Security Officer's Handbook, available from the Department of Agroculture and Consumer Services, Division of Licensing, at any regional service center.

Remember, in Florida, you may pepper spray someone to make them stop trespassing. (OC may be used against anyone committing a public offense, which you are using force to terminate the offense on the property you have a legal duty to protect.)

While most people don't consider the legal duty a "swearing in," in Florida, at least, it is a criminal offense to abandon your post, or to willfully act or fail to act to discharge that legal duty. Can we say "sworn position?" Because you have the same responsibility to the client that the police do to the city.

[bigdog]

[QUOTE=N. A.
Remember, in Florida, you may pepper spray someone to make them stop trespassing. (OC may be used against anyone committing a public offense, which you are using force to terminate the offense on the property you have a legal duty to protect.)

i asked a deputy with pcso aboyt that he said it would be a battery to use oc unless under attack.

[N. A. Corbier]

[QUOTE=N. A.
Remember, in Florida, you may pepper spray someone to make them stop trespassing. (OC may be used against anyone committing a public offense, which you are using force to terminate the offense on the property you have a legal duty to protect.)

i asked a deputy with pcso aboyt that he said it would be a battery to use oc unless under attack.

Pinellas? Interesting. This came from a company use of force policy in the Tampa Bay area. It has been successfully done, several times, with no arrest by the person for battery. The 'victim' was usually written for a trespass warning, and then offered EMS by responding police.

Then again, it depends on the deputy your asking. I've heard some deputies say one thing, another deputy say another, and the sergeant present tell them both they're wrong, its "this way." Usually its the sergeant who's right.

You may use enough force to remove a person from your property or to terminate their tortious or criminal interference with the property (or persons on it) that is required to overcome resistance. OC is considered able to be used at "passive resistance," at the same level that you go hands on. If you make the decision to forcibly remove a person from the property you control, you have the option of OC, joint locks, or joint locks with baton (If certified).

Source(s): FSS 776.031 "A person is justified in the use of force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to prevent or terminate the other's trespass on, or other tortious or criminal interference with, either real property other than a dwelling or personal property, lawfully in his or her possession or in the possession of another who is a member of his or her immediate family or household or of a person whose property he or she has a legal duty to protect... A person does not have a duty to retreat if the person is in a place where he or she has a right to be." Empasis Added

Notice how there is no statement that "the force must be lesser or equal." The reasonableness standard applies. Is OC a reasonable force option when dealing with an opponent who you are justified in using force on? This is not a cut and dry "yes or no" answer, just as it isn't for a police officer. Perhaps the guy is huge. Perhaps your huge. Either way, its less "equal or lesser" and more "would a reasonable person used that amount of force to control the situation and gain compliance?"

[davido]

http://media.putfile.com/skater-spray

[Arff312]

see now thats just funny no matter who it is there skater or not.

[N. A. Corbier]

see now thats just funny no matter who it is there skater or not.

Truth. That was funny.

[bigdog]

My problem with the warning system is that you get police officers who do not believe that you should be removing the person, for whatever reason. The statute is based on a legal right of an owner to control their property, through themselves or their agent. Just because the responding LEO hates writing trespass forms dosen't mean that the property owner's right to remove a person should be infringed.

Several street level officers in different municipalities informed us a year or two ago that if we have to call LE to remove, that 775's statutory authority to use force to terminate trespass was "debatable," and that the security officer who removed the trespasser "will probally go to jail."

You can see my issue with it when someone in LE starts twisting the statute to remove the property owner's authority under 810 and 775.

We had agencies that would successfully arrest and prosecute for Trespass After Warning if we issued the warning, filled out our own warning form, took a polaroid picture of them at the scene, and had their DL information. We would detain for the offense, (Not sure if it was a lawful detention or not, honestly, but PCSO, HCSO, and TPD counted it as lawful) have the paperwork ready, and the person would be then arrested by TAW. the statute is 776 not 775 . 775 is definitions of crimes

[N. A. Corbier]

the statute is 776 not 775 . 775 is definitions of crimes
Yes, I think I had to post 776 to counter someone's point that use of force is illegal against a law violator on a property that the security officer has a legal duty to protect, demonstrating it is indeed legal.

[davido]

thanks on the video, I did the spraying, He was in our fountains bending the spouts to the fountain and i ran and turned on the water...lol

[Zebra One]

HAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAAAAAHAHAAHAHAHA ROFLMAO...Thats a cool video :D

I didn't witness any misconduct on part of the Officer. Its all just your opinion that he was out of line.
That is because you distinctly lack professional ethics or depth.

My guess is you are not much older than the kids on the scene.

By the way, have you ever tried one of those wristlocks on someone who wanted to kick your scrawny butt? They only work on passive resistant subjects. Of course, you don't possess the real life experience to know that.

That security officer?s mouth is what escalated that incident. There were at least three points of contact when the kid was leaving as told, but the officer decided to reengage with inflammatory statements.

I would have started the termination process as soon as I became aware of the video.

[Zebra One]

I only say this to show that the cost of living is high is the Bay Area and I do make $13.75 an hour!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! hahahhaahhahahahahaha :D :eek:
Equivalent to minimum wage in reasonable places without the over inflated cost of living the Granola State has caused. Not too much to be bragging about, if you possess any iota of economic sense.

[Zebra One]

http://media.putfile.com/skater-spray
Yep, that was funny!

[The_Mayor]

My guess is you are not much older than the kids on the scene.

Nice assumption there Squirt..but more than that. :D



By the way, have you ever tried one of those wristlocks on someone who wanted to kick your scrawny butt? They only work on passive resistant subjects. Of course, you don't possess the real life experience to know that.

I have practiced Aikido for four years. I have defended myself successfully in 2 real life situations. One when I was teenager, prior to my martial arts experience. And second, after 2 years of martial arts, against a shoving I applied an armbar. I am 6'2 and 270 lbs.

"scrawny butt"...no "real life experience"...speak for yourself really. :rolleyes:



I would have started the termination process as soon as I became aware of the video.

Really..guess what........I don't care.

[davis002]

Nice assumption there Squirt..but more than that. :D



I have practiced Aikido for four years. I have defended myself successfully in 2 real life situations. One when I was teenager, prior to my martial arts experience. And second, after 2 years of martial arts, against a shoving I applied an armbar. I am 6'2 and 270 lbs.

"scrawny butt"...no "real life experience"...speak for yourself really. :rolleyes:



Really..guess what........I don't care.

Did you even bother to read what he states his experience is?

[Tennsix]

Originally Posted by The_Mayor
Its all just your opinion that he was out of line.

..if the skater touched me first.. then i would apply a wristlock, restrain him, and make an arrest. I'd love it if they were taping it....just documents that I was assualted first and that I defended myself.
I got a good laugh from that video. I have a definite loathing toward skateboarders a.k.a. curb squirrels. In as much as I enjoyed the officer?s method of justice, it was wrong. Some would argue it was criminal. In my state, there are statutes that support a criminal complaint agianst the officer. Two examples are:

Indiana Criminal Code 35-42-2-3:
Provocation
A person who recklessly, knowingly, or intentionally engages in conduct that is likely to provoke a reasonable man to commit battery commits provocation, a Class C infraction.

Indiana Criminal Code: 35-45-1-3
Disorderly Conduct
A person who recklessly, knowingly, or intentionally:
(1) engages in fighting or in tumultuous conduct; (2) makes unreasonable noise and continues to do so after being asked to stop; or
(3) disrupts a lawful assembly of persons;
commits disorderly conduct, a Class B misdemeanor. However, the offense is a Class D felony if it adversely affects airport security and is committed in an airport (as defined in IC 8-21-1-1) or on the premises of an airport, including in a parking area, a maintenance bay, or an aircraft hangar.

[N. A. Corbier]

I got a good laugh from that video. I have a definite loathing toward skateboarders a.k.a. curb squirrels. In as much as I enjoyed the officer?s method of justice, it was wrong. Some would argue it was criminal. In my state, there are statutes that support a criminal complaint agianst the officer. Two examples are:

Indiana Criminal Code 35-42-2-3:
Provocation
A person who recklessly, knowingly, or intentionally engages in conduct that is likely to provoke a reasonable man to commit battery commits provocation, a Class C infraction.

Indiana Criminal Code: 35-45-1-3
Disorderly Conduct
A person who recklessly, knowingly, or intentionally:
(1) engages in fighting or in tumultuous conduct; (2) makes unreasonable noise and continues to do so after being asked to stop; or
(3) disrupts a lawful assembly of persons;
commits disorderly conduct, a Class B misdemeanor. However, the offense is a Class D felony if it adversely affects airport security and is committed in an airport (as defined in IC 8-21-1-1) or on the premises of an airport, including in a parking area, a maintenance bay, or an aircraft hangar.
Given enough time with Florida Statue, I could come up with a few for Florida, as well. I'm SURE I could come up with some in Wiscosnin.

If your gonna get all hard and try some "street justice," at least MAKE A MARK ON THE ENEMY. Sheesh, this "fight" was a draw at best.

[N. A. Corbier]

That is because you distinctly lack professional ethics or depth.

My guess is you are not much older than the kids on the scene.

By the way, have you ever tried one of those wristlocks on someone who wanted to kick your scrawny butt? They only work on passive resistant subjects. Of course, you don't possess the real life experience to know that.

That security officer?s mouth is what escalated that incident. There were at least three points of contact when the kid was leaving as told, but the officer decided to reengage with inflammatory statements.

I would have started the termination process as soon as I became aware of the video.

I'd of called corporate counsel the moment I saw the video. :)

[N. A. Corbier]

Did you even bother to read what he states his experience is?
Did anyone notice that The Mayor stated he was shoved (still passive resistance, not active attack), and applied a wrist lock?

[Zebra One]

I have practiced Aikido for four years. I have defended myself successfully in 2 real life situations. One when I was teenager, prior to my martial arts experience. And second, after 2 years of martial arts, against a shoving I applied an armbar. I am 6'2 and 270 lbs.

"scrawny butt"...no "real life experience"...speak for yourself really. :rolleyes:
Thanks for the laugh, I enjoyed it.

So, as a teenager you got in a hair pulling contest and one year later someone tries to shove you. I must admit, your life experiences are overwhelmingly awesome. (Can anyone else pick up the sarcasm? :rolleyes:)

Make up your mind, either you are a shrimp, as stated in an earlier post of yours, or you are a Fat Body. Which one is correct? Let me know and I will address you appropriately. ;)

[N. A. Corbier]

Thanks for the laugh, I enjoyed it.

So, as a teenager you got in a hair pulling contest and one year later someone tries to shove you. I must admit, your life experiences are overwhelmingly awesome. (Can anyone else pick up the sarcasm? :rolleyes:)

Make up your mind, either you are a shrimp, as stated in an earlier post of yours, or you are a Fat Body. Which one is correct? Let me know and I will address you appropriately. ;)

Now, now, lets all be nice, and remain professional. And whatnot...

[Zebra One]

Now, now, lets all be nice, and remain professional. And whatnot...
Sorry, but it is like being bilingual. I have to speak a language he will understand. :D

[The_Mayor]

Make up your mind, either you are a shrimp, as stated in an earlier post of yours, or you are a Fat Body. Which one is correct? Let me know and I will address you appropriately. ;)

Stop lying and putting words into my mouth..If I ever called myself a shrimp..then highlight that part in quotes.

I am waiting...... :rolleyes:

[The_Mayor]

Sorry, but it is like being bilingual. I have to speak a language he will understand. :D

Mr. Retired Cop justifies being rude...and has the audacity to speak of "ethics" :rolleyes:

[Zebra One]

Stop lying and putting words into my mouth..If I ever called myself a shrimp..then highlight that part in quotes.

I am waiting...... :rolleyes:

Let's see, by taking a look at the below post, two possibilities come to mind.

One, you were referring to yourself as a shrimp.

Two, you are absolutely incompetent at articulating correctly in the English language.

Since you are now saying you are not a shrimp, my vote is on your terrible writing skills. :D

http://forums.securityinfowatch.com/showpost.php?p=343&postcount=6

[S/O245]

If feel that in many incidents you dont have to be a ass about it. For example i just came back from the gas station rest room come back to my assignment and i pull in a pick up truck is sittin in the back throwing stuff into the back of the truck. SWhen I pulled up i did not yell hey what the hell are you doing here. I did not know if he was a employee or not etc. So i pull behind his truck with my bright lights on and i said whats up to start off our convo. Then he told me he had permission to get pallets but he could not tell me the name of the guy. So after a few mins i tell him the best thing to do would be to come back tomorrow in the day time and get them. Then i advised him i was not saying her had permission or did not and that i was not trying to cause him any trouble. At that time i was ytold nothing about the pallets. If he had taken them i would of had to call PD. But i talked to him very nice as i could and just explained how it would be better to come back during the day. he let me see his id and gave me his name and number which i put in my report. Now had the incident been worse example he made a threat or some kind etc then i would have taken a different approach to the entire thing.

I agree with the S/O that if the incident requires you to be more tougher then you have to. After all the suspect determines the outcome right ? But also keep in mind that you need to treat people fair. I have heard from expiernece police officers that your mouth can cause you problems sometimes. I think that means if the incident requires a more soft approach then do so. If you see it requires a more hard approach then again the suspect determines what happens not you.

Stay Safe All :)

[The_Mayor]

Let's see, by taking a look at the below post, two possibilities come to mind.

One, you were referring to yourself as a shrimp.

Two, you are absolutely incompetent at articulating correctly in the English language.

Since you are now saying you are not a shrimp, my vote is on your terrible writing skills. :D

http://forums.securityinfowatch.com/showpost.php?p=343&postcount=6

You still have yet to provide what you have stated..seems to be your typical spew, run, and hide cycle. :D

[BoxerGuard]

fire that guard, hell yeah. I would have knocked that skaters ass out.

[S/O245]

Ok i seen the video but did not have the speakers on for the entire thing so i did not hear what all was said. I however did feel that the S/O did wrong at least 2 to 3 times by trying to grab the skateboard etc. I also feel that he is not that bright on tactics. Look how many times he got right up on them he was way too close. If any subjects had weapons he could have been stabbed just like that. I think he should have used more distance and after telling that to leave then say you got so many mins to go or the police will be here etc. Not sure if i would have fired him or not. I guess more would depend. He would have been suspended at least. But i just thought it was dumb of him he kept getting right up on them i dont know how many times. If they had a knife or other weapons how well could he have retreated to get away from the attack ?

Stay Safe All :)

[Tennsix]

Ok i seen the video but did not have the speakers on for the entire thing so i did not hear what all was said. I however did feel that the S/O did wrong at least 2 to 3 times by trying to grab the skateboard etc. I also feel that he is not that bright on tactics. Look how many times he got right up on them he was way too close. If any subjects had weapons he could have been stabbed just like that. I think he should have used more distance and after telling that to leave then say you got so many mins to go or the police will be here etc. Not sure if i would have fired him or not. I guess more would depend. He would have been suspended at least. But i just thought it was dumb of him he kept getting right up on them i dont know how many times. If they had a knife or other weapons how well could he have retreated to get away from the attack ?

Stay Safe All :)
You are correct to first consider the safety aspect of the encounter. However, the officer should have let it alone when they left his area of responsibity. Furthermore, the officer caused the incident to become physical. He should have been fired.

[S/O245]

I could not tell if they were still on property or not.

How i would have done if after i told them they had to leave 3 times then i would have said alright then i would have called the police in and maybe they would have been cited for a crime or not and taken a ride in the back seat lol. Anyways yeah he did things stupid. He should of called the PD if they would not leave. Then PD could have made a arrest if needed.

Stay Safe All :)

[AASC Colorado]

A few terms to consider;
-Reasonable Force
-Escalation of Force
-Officer Safety
-Verbal Judo

This SEO didn't have control of the situation, nor himself. He said it best himself, "look cool in front of your friends." If this guy was professional he could have let the kid save face and all would have been a non-event. The SEO was more worried about himself saving face. As for who threw first punch, it looked to me like the guard did when he grabbed the camera. On private property or not, this guard was definately out of line.

When you learn to control the situation, very often a physical confrontation can be avoided.

As for trespass. You can not detain a trespasser - that would legally result in an "invitation or inability to leave the property," ergo suspect is no longer trespassing.

[N. A. Corbier]

It really dosen't make sense to hold a trespasser, unless they're guilty of the crime of trespass after warning, which then can be proven that they are wilfully trespassing without permission, were informed earlier that they were not welcome on the property, and chose to return. Then it becomes a misdomeanor breach of the peace, some states allow arrest/detention for such.

But till they're warned and paper, why would you keep them on the property to have a police officer remove them, doing your job?

[S/O245]

as for my post we really are not told what to do in that case. I had trespassers and i just called the PD. We dont have any warning tickets or at least i dont have any. I think other posts may and patrol posts. I dont really know if i have any powers to make them leave. I mean I do have powers if i need them to leave i can call PD. And I could ask them to leave. But other than that is all i can do. If they wont leave or they are doing somethin i call PD.

Stay Safe All :)

[N. A. Corbier]

as for my post we really are not told what to do in that case. I had trespassers and i just called the PD. We dont have any warning tickets or at least i dont have any. I think other posts may and patrol posts. I dont really know if i have any powers to make them leave. I mean I do have powers if i need them to leave i can call PD. And I could ask them to leave. But other than that is all i can do. If they wont leave or they are doing somethin i call PD.

Stay Safe All :)

It should be addressed in your company orders (General Orders) and post orders what your authority is to remove a trespasser. Does your state (I forget where your from, to be honest, sorry) have state-wide training for security?

The property owner and their agent (You) have the RIGHT to tell someone to leave, and to ensure they leave using any reasonable level of force to remove them. (Calling the police would be a reasonable level of force.) Usually, calling the police is enough, unless the trespasser is wigging out and there's no real time to call them before he does something that will severely negatively affect you, your client, or some poor bystander.

[S/O245]

we have orders in our handbook but they are in general orders. as for the post they dont even have post orders. shows you how well some operations is ran lol. Im not saying anything bad about the big bosses but they do need to get better on some things. I could not be incharge right now so i cant say i would do better or not. I dont have the experience for such a rank. I could only offer ideas to help if they asked.

But yeah we can ask them to leave then if they give us any trouble i can call in the boys lol.

Im in Ohio. Really i belive what the requirement is right now is orientation training. Which we all know alot of security companies orientation training is not good enough. At least thats me. Now that Ohio Homeland Secuirty has control of security and pi's they are working on more training and working on making other operations better. You can already tell things are better. It's just going slow. From word of mouth from our training boss i hear ohio homeland security is probably going to require each S/O to do so many in service training hrs each yr like police and fire do etc. As far as what the training topics will be i have no idea.

Another thing they have to drug test 15 to 20 % of our personnel each yr. This is done by a computer system picks your last digits from the soc number. If you number comes up you have to test. They said we may not test at all or up to 4 times. I have a problem with that. even that i know i will pass all 4 i feel this is wrong. Why should a person who has never touched a drug in his life be subject to a drug test 4 times. Also of course you know if we get hurt or anything we have to take a drug and alcohol test. Which i agree with that. Thats fine. But up to 4 times. I think Ohio gives money back to a security company if they do this drug test thing every yr. Everyone from the head man to us can be tested.

[Bill Warnock]

S/O 245. N.A. Corbier and I are of one mind. You should have post or patrol orders. Not having them gives the company an out should you do something that makes them look bad or raises a liability issue. "This employee acted beyond the scope of his employment." You may counter, "I did not have specific instructions." The upshot of this may be you are left out there twisting in the breeze. You may be faulted for accepting an assignment without instructions. The phrase "use your common sense" may work, but in a specific situation your common sense may not fit the bill if you are not seasoned for that type of incident.
Enjoy the day,
Bill

[N. A. Corbier]

I've got a dealer who sells instant drug field drug kits. Not nik-paks, but urinate in the cup, swab in the mouth, alcotest as well. We're going for 100% drug test upon hire, random screening per year, immediate for-cause alcohol screening (to .02% DOT level, nobody said "drink till impaired," they said "Don't drink on duty"), and routine screen after accident.

Unforunately, I haven't found a local insurance company that will touch the liability insurance (They fear guns and low income housing projects), but my insurance agent tells me that its things like that which lower liabiliity. To me, its things like that which increase officer and public safety.

[Bill Warnock]

For some strange reason, we seem to enjoy seeing the horse pushing the cart instead of pulling it.
Enjoy the day,
Bill

[UncleDooly]

[QUOTE=EMTFirefighter]Watch this one, you can really learn something from it:

http://www.guzer.com/videos/guard_vs_skater.php

I watched the video several times. From what I saw, the kid was a smart-ass but was complying with the Officer's instructions to leave the property.
The Officer was unnecessarily antagonistic while escorting the subject offsite thus making it personal. I would have fired him for that (anticipating future problems with the officer's attitude).

Judging from the cars parked at the curb of what appears to be a business area, and assuming the presence of a sidewalk, not to mention city or county right-of-way (a certain distance from the center of the street and usually including the sidewalk) from which you cannot remove anyone, the Officer was off post and on public property. I observed several instances of assault by the officer.

The Officer is a disgrace!

[N. A. Corbier]

[QUOTE=EMTFirefighter]Watch this one, you can really learn something from it:

http://www.guzer.com/videos/guard_vs_skater.php

I watched the video several times. From what I saw, the kid was a smart-ass but was complying with the Officer's instructions to leave the property.
The Officer was unnecessarily antagonistic while escorting the subject offsite thus making it personal. I would have fired him for that (anticipating future problems with the officer's attitude).

Judging from the cars parked at the curb of what appears to be a business area, and assuming the presence of a sidewalk, not to mention city or county right-of-way (a certain distance from the center of the street and usually including the sidewalk) from which you cannot remove anyone, the Officer was off post and on public property. I observed several instances of assault by the officer.

The Officer is a disgrace!

I stole this for training purposes. :) Others should too.