Defending against knife attacks

[ff000525]

Here's a clip that I found while on packing.org. It shows how fast a suspect can harm someone even if they are a considerable distance away. Granted, I wouldn't be standing directly infront of that person and I'd like think that I'd move when they did...... Also notice that every officer goes for a two handed full draw, I would think a situation like this would call for quick one handed, shoot from the hip reaction (which should be practiced) and the officer immediatley moving


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1459052511793821456&q=gun&pl=true

[N. A. Corbier]

The 21 foot rule comes into mind here.

1. If someone is within 21 feet of you and decides to do a suicide charge - you will not deliever rounds on target before you are cut from the static draw position.

2. If someone is running at you with a knife, MOVE. Either retreat and seek cover, place obstacles, etc. "Bringing a knife to a gun fight" works because he's armed, and your not.

3. Through training, knife disarms are possible, but you need to know what your doing and train to keep knowing.

Me, I perfer getting behind some cover. You can draw from there, if you're going to. The static draw gets folks killed.

[Defensive tactics]

if you are unarmed and can not create distance control the elbow "shoot in for the elbow" then deliver knee strikes shoulder strikes and headbutts in rapid succesion to get them to drop the knife. at which point you will physcially "guide" them to the ground.

stay safe
Ben

[ozsecuritychic]

i drove ten hours from my house to do a spontaneous knife defence course.because where i live security guards only know things like karate if that.i would say funny thing is but its not really funny they dont realise that if they try to kick someone that has a knife that they are going to get cut very badly.the course i did was ppct and how to move out of the way quick.i am hoping to get enough people together to get 1 of the instructors to come to wagga to do defencive training.

[N. A. Corbier]

It depends on how your kicking them. Unless you are a serious student of a martial art or defensive tactics course that teaches grappling, you are going to get cut resisting. But, better to be cut than be killed.

Getting in close, controlling the weapon elbow, and striking the vitals of the attacker is what I call "attacking the man, not the weapon." This is in the same vein as attacking someone directly instead of wrestling over the gun in your holster. If they're trying to pull it out, clamp down with one hand, and attack them viciously with the other - throat chops, eye rakes, shin stomps, etc. Make them defend themselves instead of attacking your weapon.

Same with the knife. If you can get in, lock the weapon limb up so that there is little range of motion and no power in the slashes, then attack the target viciously - they will stop attacking with the knife and start defending themselves.

Its the same situation when they attack you. If you are defending, your not going on the offensive and disrupting their ability to attack. Their attacking, you want to defend long enough to be able to attack.

As far as PPCT, keep in mind an old axim in DT training: 4 hours makes you proficient, 8 hours makes you advanced, 40 hours makes you an instructor.

You need to take what you learned in the PPCT course and regularly maintain that knowledge through continued training. Taking a once a year course, and expecting to remember it in stress situation without further training and practice will fail you. Only through consistant training and practice will you retain proficiency.

[ozsecuritychic]

i try to practise as much as possible but i find it hard to do a brachial stun to someone who hasnt done something wrong(my fiancee for example)i find it hard because he knows what i am going to do and takes of running.i havent actually had to do it to defend myself yet.but i will be doing more training.my biggest priority is getting home to my family and staying safe.

[1stWatch]

...You need to take what you learned in the PPCT course and regularly maintain that knowledge through continued training. Taking a once a year course, and expecting to remember it in stress situation without further training and practice will fail you. Only through consistant training and practice will you retain proficiency.

Most people I have ever met would not be able to successfully defend themseves bare-handed against a knife attack. The difference between old-school martial arts and ppct here is symantical to me since we all have only two arms and two legs. That statement quoted above, however, is the most true thing about any system. Only constant conditioning will properly prepare you for an actual attack, especially one made more stressful by the presence of a weapon. A certain amount of physical conditioning is necessary for success here, as well as proper tactics.

Think of the boxer who runs 5+ miles per day, lifts weights, does hundreds of situps, spars 10+ four minute rounds, and jumps rope for 30+ minutes daily to train for a match that has only three 3 minute fights with gloves on. The daily training regimen is intense not only for cardiovascular preparation, but to program the nervous system to respond properly while under stress.
Try this drill to test the theory: have someone hold up one flat striking pad. Hold both your hands up and then jab repeatedly with your lead hand as forcefully as you can into the pad for three minutes. Three minutes, that's all. Provided you don't do that kind of thing regularly, you'll notice how quickly fatigued all your muscles will become, breathing will become short, and your hands will want to drop. This is a small sample of the real thing.

The main thing to rehearse in the knife situation is proper mobile footwork. Principles to consider are your angle from the opponent, the number of steps to take away from and toward the opponent, the type of steps (short stepping, side stepping, circling, push stepping, slide stepping etc), the geography and obstacles surrounding you, broken rhythm, and cadence (your mental sense of your opponent's speed).

A quick retreat of steps may be necessary to avoid being initally cut. This creates a reactionary gap, but in order to shut down the attack, you will have to close the gap and employ some type of really aggressive tactic to stop the opponent's capability of attacking and remove the knife.

Some really really serious practitioners of systems like jeet kune do I have met were able to use some really fast non-conventional kicking motions to neutralize a knife wielder. One I saw used a straight toe-up kick to the wrist that was holding the knife. Another one I saw was a very low side-kick to the ankle (not knee joint) of the assailant. This was only successful because his foot was travelling at more than 150 mph with no telegraphing whatsoever. Most people who practice karate and the like cannot do such a thing. These movements were also not circular, hooking, or round kicks, which seem to be the most popular ones.

Control of the elbow, as Corbier stated, is the key to shutting down the knife attack. I am more apt to use limb destruction tactics than joint locks if there is a melee weapon involved, such as close the gap and hit the wielder's elbow with a right cross. That would probably cause a fracture. I would not recommend ppct's brachial stun as an initial tactic while the assailant is still holding the knife considering its close quarters range. Regardless of which stopping technique you use though, you should only have 3 or 4 that are consistently practiced. That will make it where your response is consistent and your mind won't revert to a sense of second-guessing while you are trying to take care of business.

Back to the elbow though. The elbow is the key thing to look at to know where the opponent's hand is going to move. Looking at the hand can deceive you. The main area of telegraphing usually comes from the center of the body itself, but the elbow gives away the true position and intent of the hand and the vulnerable openings of the body.

That was lengthy, but I hope it helps some.

[ACP01]

Something to keep in mind about knife attacks is the attacker will not generally be even 21 feet away. Most knife attacks on PD or SOs occur at normal working distances (2 arm length etc) where the knife is pulled and IMMEDIATELLY put into action. (This is what happened to me..ended up getting stabbed in the leg of all places).

You HAVE to pay attention! Get out of the way! Counter and secure the weapon or the arm and hand. (I lossed control of the wrist). Punish the attacker until situation is controlled.

[N. A. Corbier]

Something to keep in mind about knife attacks is the attacker will not generally be even 21 feet away. Most knife attacks on PD or SOs occur at normal working distances (2 arm length etc) where the knife is pulled and IMMEDIATELLY put into action. (This is what happened to me..ended up getting stabbed in the leg of all places).

You HAVE to pay attention! Get out of the way! Counter and secure the weapon or the arm and hand. (I lossed control of the wrist). Punish the attacker until situation is controlled.

Yeah. :) The running lunge isn't going to happen often. I forgot to stress that the standard is up to 21 feet away, with folks leaning heavily towards 30 feet away. That goes from 0 feet to 30 feet, folks.

A lot like lethal force does not just mean shooting someone with a gun, nor does the authority to deliver lethal force mean you can only shoot them. If you are justified to use lethal force, you can do just about anything you want to them to get to them to stop attacking you. Anything.

[1stWatch]

...Counter and secure the weapon or the arm and hand. (I lossed control of the wrist). Punish the attacker until situation is controlled.

Many people will, in order to secure the arm holding the weapon, use a grappling hold to try to neutralize it. This is vaguely possible in my opinion, but keep in mind that hand holding the knife can turn anywhere within a circle's radius and the knife can and most likely will cut you. This is why I prefer the method of swift limb destruction - hard fast striking to the wrist, top of the hand, and biceps as well as kicks to the shins first.

[Mr. Security]

Something to keep in mind about knife attacks is the attacker will not generally be even 21 feet away. Most knife attacks on PD or SOs occur at normal working distances (2 arm length etc) where the knife is pulled and IMMEDIATELLY put into action. (This is what happened to me..ended up getting stabbed in the leg of all places).

You HAVE to pay attention! Get out of the way! Counter and secure the weapon or the arm and hand. (I lossed control of the wrist). Punish the attacker until situation is controlled.

If you are dealing with an individual that may have a knife, why not have your baton already extended? A 26" ASP should be enough to keep some distance between you and the knife.

[N. A. Corbier]

If you are dealing with an individual that may have a knife, why not have your baton already extended? A 26" ASP should be enough to keep some distance between you and the knife.

You'd think, but there's a great story about a guy who used a PR-24 against a knife wielding suspect. He has scars on both arms, eventually shot the BG to death. Horriffic scars over most of both arms, he was carved up.

A motivated individual will ignore the pain of a baton strike. Unless you can get a lucky shot in and cause the hand to drop the knife, he can still slice and dice you while your hitting him with a steel rod.

[Mr. Security]

You'd think, but there's a great story about a guy who used a PR-24 against a knife wielding suspect. He has scars on both arms, eventually shot the BG to death. Horriffic scars over most of both arms, he was carved up.

A motivated individual will ignore the pain of a baton strike. Unless you can get a lucky shot in and cause the hand to drop the knife, he can still slice and dice you while your hitting him with a steel rod.

Like the guy whose doped up and keeps coming at an officer who has already used deadly force. Thank goodness I don't have to deal with those kinds of individuals.

[N. A. Corbier]

Like the guy whose doped up and keeps coming at an officer who has already used deadly force. Thank goodness I don't have to deal with those kinds of individuals.

Drugs are bad, but someone pumped up on fear or rage is determined enough to defeat a baton attack just long enough to cut you. How bad depends on their level of training and your's.

[bigdog]

knife equals deadly force if baton is out strike for neck or head.

[1stWatch]

You'd think, but there's a great story about a guy who used a PR-24 against a knife wielding suspect. He has scars on both arms, eventually shot the BG to death. Horriffic scars over most of both arms, he was carved up.

A motivated individual will ignore the pain of a baton strike. Unless you can get a lucky shot in and cause the hand to drop the knife, he can still slice and dice you while your hitting him with a steel rod.

There is also a bit of a time delay in order to pull the baton out of the scabbard and extend it. That time is usually not available during a fast paced knife attack. It is a bit shorter with a stick or PR24 in a ring, but it is still there.

[1stWatch]

knife equals deadly force if baton is out strike for neck or head.

I agree. Being able to draw and shoot is best, since that minimizes the danger to you, but if it comes to having to melee against the knife I like the idea of limb striking followed up by a throat punch, an elbow strike, or foul tactics (ripping of extremities, ears, eyes, testicles, etc.).

[Bill Warnock]

Nathan et al:
I am to this day, nearly 40 years ago I offered a solution to handle a subject with a knife. The guest instructor was from the Highway Patrol. He belittled what the Air Force taught me in 1968, the 21-foot rule.
Two weeks later, to the day, he was knifed to death as he tried to draw his service weapon, well within the 21-foot rule.
Gangs in this part of the world are something to really fear. The LEO and Security Officers have to have eyes in the back of their heads. Pity the poor civilian or poorly trained person coming up short in such an encounter.
Nathan, I'm coming around to your way of thinking, 0-30 feet.
Until you have been stabbed, you don't know the meaning of "fear."
Again and again I'm reminded, this is not the era of my youth.
Enjoy the day,
Bill

[N. A. Corbier]

I got the 30 foot rule from Police Magazine, as referenced by Samuel from Officer.com/SPE Forums. Several other folks have suggested it, as well, that most consider to be competent in the subject, such as Jerry Mcaulley. (Who I wish I could remember if its McC or Mca)

I like the rule because it makes sense. People are fast.

[DMS 525]

Something to keep in mind about knife attacks is the attacker will not generally be even 21 feet away. Most knife attacks on PD or SOs occur at normal working distances (2 arm length etc) where the knife is pulled and IMMEDIATELLY put into action. (This is what happened to me..ended up getting stabbed in the leg of all places).

You HAVE to pay attention! Get out of the way! Counter and secure the weapon or the arm and hand. (I lossed control of the wrist). Punish the attacker until situation is controlled.

I got stabbed in the leg, too, early in the game. At a traffic stop; he whirled around in the seat(passenger) and lunged at me before I knew what was happening.

(Knock on wood) The only time since someone drew a knife on me, I backed up two long strides, and drew my firearm. Made it clear to him if he didn't drop it right there, I would neutralize him. He didn't try to call my bluff.

That 21 foot rule was called "Truller Drill", after SGT Dennis Truller of the Salt Lake City PD. He was the first to prove how a knife is deadly within 21 feet.

You should see that movie "Surviving Edged Weapons." Made me leave the room for a couple of minutes.

[N. A. Corbier]

I was able to watch all of Surviving Edged Weapons. My first encounter with a knifing victim was a 68 year old guard who was a friend of mine on a post.

We were talking, and he related the story (I may of told it before) about his own firearms vs. knife encounter. He was on guard duty, in the Marines, during WWII.

During his night watch, a Japanese soldier came into camp. He challenged the soldier, and his reward was a bayonet up his left arm from the wrist to the elbow, then another slice from elbow to shoulder. Deep gashes. After fighting with the soldier, he reached his .45 and shot the enemy soldier dead.

His Sergeant arrived to determine the cause of the gunshot, and noted grimly, "Next time you kill a <japanese soldier>, don't wake the whole camp." He was then, of course, treated for his wounds.

His rifle was useless, he noted, because the soldier was on him like "that." His sidearm was only useful after a prolonged struggle.

I think everyone in both professions should meet someone who's survived a knife attack. Its one thing to watch the movie, but its another to see the scars they leave on another human being - and realize both the power of the blade, and that you can achieve victory in close quarters combat with a knife-wielding opponent.

[Bill Warnock]

I got stabbed in the leg, too, early in the game. At a traffic stop; he whirled around in the seat(passenger) and lunged at me before I knew what was happening.

(Knock on wood) The only time since someone drew a knife on me, I backed up two long strides, and drew my firearm. Made it clear to him if he didn't drop it right there, I would neutralize him. He didn't try to call my bluff.

That 21 foot rule was called "Truller Drill", after SGT Dennis Truller of the Salt Lake City PD. He was the first to prove how a knife is deadly within 21 feet.

You should see that movie "Surviving Edged Weapons." Made me leave the room for a couple of minutes.
DMS 525:
Sir, could you please give me a date of Sgt Truller's discovery?. The Air/Security Police Academy had been teaching this for several years before 1968, I'm told. I went through in July 1968.
I'd appreciate it.
Enjoy the day,
Bill

[ACP01]

You'd think, but there's a great story about a guy who used a PR-24 against a knife wielding suspect. He has scars on both arms, eventually shot the BG to death. Horriffic scars over most of both arms, he was carved up.

A motivated individual will ignore the pain of a baton strike. Unless you can get a lucky shot in and cause the hand to drop the knife, he can still slice and dice you while your hitting him with a steel rod.


The guy that stabbed me ended upin the same ER except I left after a few stitches..He went into surgery ie skull fracture, broken clavicle, and broken jaw. Once he stabbed me I bounced his head off the pavement, then got the baton into service and he was still trying to scuffle.

[T202]

Once investigated an assault where one guy stabbed the other in the leg with a knife. Got a warrant and on Christmas morning we went to arrest him. Guess what he got for Christmas from his wife? A new knife. Go figure.