UnderCover LED Dash/Visor Lights GEN II +P

[CTecElectronics]

Hello,
If anyone is interested in high quality north american built LED warning lights please check out www.c-tecelectronics.com. We have just released the Aduro (http://www.c-tecelectronics.com/aduro.htm) and it is a very powerful warning light that is easily hidden for under cover work. The optional mounting kit allows you to mount the light to almost any area inside your vehicle. We also carry the Responder (http://www.c-tecelectronics.com/responder.htm) which has the same dimensions as the Aduro but uses Gen I lights. The Gen I lights still deliver excellent light output.

There are lots of videos on the site showing our lights in use. As you will see in the videos, we have excellent products that deliver excellent visual results.

If anyone has any questions please let me know.
Thanks,
James
C-Tec Electronics
info@c-tecelectronics.com

[1stWatch]

One question to consider here is what do you believe security would do with those lights? Would they be used for traffic control, constant use as marker lights or visiblity, or would they be pulling over cars?

[CTecElectronics]

We have found that many Security Professionals are also Reserve Law Enforcement Officers, or Volunteer Fire Fighters. These are the people that need proper lighting when responding to calls but do not want to spend excessive amounts of money for personal vehicle lighting.
There are also LP members that need to conduct road side compliance checks and require extra lighting on the rear of their vehicle for safety when stopped on the side of a roadway.
Thanks,
James

[N. A. Corbier]

Light bars are good. Dash lights are OK. Visor lights are generally useless in marked security vehicles, I'm afraid.

Have to ask, what's an LP member?

[CTecElectronics]

Loss Prevention Member..... in that I mean a member of the forum who is classified as a Loss Prevention Investigator. Guess that sounded a little weird now that I look back at the post, sorry.

Visor lights are great as supplemental lighting or primary lighting in personal vehicles. They tuck up out of the way when not in use so they do not make the vehicle stand out.
All our lights can be either dash/deck/glass or visor mounted so they are rather versatile.
Thanks!
James

[N. A. Corbier]

Loss Prevention Member..... in that I mean a member of the forum who is classified as a Loss Prevention Investigator. Guess that sounded a little weird now that I look back at the post, sorry.

Visor lights are great as supplemental lighting or primary lighting in personal vehicles. They tuck up out of the way when not in use so they do not make the vehicle stand out.
All our lights can be either dash/deck/glass or visor mounted so they are rather versatile.
Thanks!
James

There are also LP members that need to conduct road side compliance checks and require extra lighting on the rear of their vehicle for safety when stopped on the side of a roadway.

Its always good to have an obvious primary warning system if your driving a marked security vehicle. Having an unmarked security vehicle with dash lights is an invitation for harassment from the police, since it "resembles a police car."

As to the second quote above, I have never heard of a "roadside compliance check" in loss prevention. You may be confusing one job function for another. Loss Prevention members work in retail enviornments, being on the side of the roadway is usually the provience of a patrol operator, and usually only then when broken down - the roadway is public property.

Also, do you have restrictions on what colors you sell to what states?

[Lawson]

Yeah, please tell me you arent selling red and blue to just anyone who can afford it.

[1stWatch]

The best tools for marked security vehicles, in my opinion, are a full sized lightbar that is amber or yellow when activated and back windshield lights that are also yellow. Generally, we have no business with most sorts of dash lights or anything red, white, or blue, as these colors (in most states of the U.S.) are illegal for private vehicles and we can be brought up on charges of impersonating a police officer for using them. Other colors such as orange, green, and purple are permissible in some states since they are not defined in the transportation code, but I guarantee if we start using them very much they will be criminalized as well.

It should also be noted we can be brought up on those charges in most places and under most circumstances for pulling a car over. This has received a lot of negative attention lately. Many believe it is commonplace for people who do our job to conduct "traffic stops", but that is simply not the case. That is a police function.

It is also illegal in most states to stop on a roadway, more so if the flashing lights are activated, or to direct traffic unless you are a police officer with a registered emergency vehicle.

[Mr. Security]

The best tools for marked security vehicles, in my opinion, are a full sized lightbar that is amber or yellow when activated and back windshield lights that are also yellow.

It is also illegal in most states to stop on a roadway, more so if the flashing lights are activated, or to direct traffic unless you are a police officer with a registered emergency vehicle.

I agree with 1stWatch regarding the light bar. In Connecticut, one may use flashing amber, blue, and green lights on a POV that is operated on public roads if you have been granted a flashing light permit. Blue for volunteer firefighters (red for the Fire Chief), green for ambulance volunteers, and yellow for tow trucks, snow plows, security, etc.

[Lawson]

What light designates Police in CT?

[Mr. Security]

What light designates Police in CT?

Red/Blue combination.

[Lawson]

So a private citizen can operate one or the other?

[Mr. Security]

So a private citizen can operate one or the other?

Basically. See below.

Sec. 14-96q. Special restrictions on lamps. Flashing lights. (a) Any lighted lamp or illuminating device upon a motor vehicle, other than head lamps, spot lamps or auxiliary driving lamps, which projects a beam of light of an intensity greater than three hundred candle power shall be so directed that no part of the beam will strike the level of the roadway on which the vehicle stands at a distance of more than seventy-five feet from the vehicle.
(b) No person shall drive or move any vehicle or equipment upon any highway with any lamp or device thereon displaying a red light visible from directly in front of the center thereof. The provisions of this subsection and subsection (c) shall not apply to authorized emergency and maintenance vehicles.
(c) Flashing lights are prohibited on motor vehicles other than school buses, except (1) as a means for indicating a right or left turn, (2) flashing blue lights used by members of volunteer or civil preparedness fire companies, as provided by subsection (b) of section 14-96p, (3) on certain emergency and maintenance vehicles by written permit from the commissioner, (4) flashing or revolving yellow lights on (A) wreckers registered pursuant to section 14-66, or (B) vehicles of carriers in rural mail-delivery service or vehicles transporting or escorting any vehicle or load or combinations of vehicles or vehicles and load which is or are either oversize or overweight, or both, and operated or traveling under a permit issued by the Commissioner of Transportation pursuant to section 14-270, (5) flashing red lights (A) on a motor vehicle accommodating fifteen or fewer handicapped students used only during the time such vehicle is stopped for the purpose of receiving or discharging such handicapped students, (B) used by members of the fire police on a stationary vehicle as a warning signal during traffic directing operations at the scene of a fire, (C) on rescue vehicles, (D) used by chief executive officers of emergency medical service organizations as provided in subsection (a) of section 14-96p, (E) ambulances, as defined in section 19a-175, or (F) used by local fire marshals or directors of emergency management, (6) flashing green lights used by members of volunteer ambulance associations or companies as provided in subsection (c) of section 14-96p, or (7) flashing white lights or flashing lights of other colors specified by federal requirements for the manufacture of an ambulance used in conjunction with flashing red lights or flashing head lamps and a flashing amber light on an ambulance responding to an emergency call. The prohibitions in this section shall not prevent the operator of a motor vehicle who while traveling on a limited access divided highway, because of the grade, is unable to maintain the minimum speed of forty miles per hour, or who while traveling on any other highway is operating such motor vehicle at such slow speed as to obstruct or endanger following traffic, or the operator of a disabled vehicle stopped on a hazardous location on the highway, or in close proximity thereto, from flashing lights, installed on the vehicle primarily for other purposes, in any manner that the operator selects so as to indicate that such vehicle is traveling slowly, obstructing traffic or is disabled and is a hazard to be avoided. The commissioner is authorized, at such commissioner's discretion, to issue special permits for the use of flashing or revolving lights on emergency vehicles, on escort vehicles and on maintenance vehicles, provided any person, firm or corporation other than the state or any metropolitan district, town, city or borough shall pay an annual permit fee of two dollars for each such vehicle, provided vehicles not registered in this state used for transporting or escorting any vehicle or load or combinations of vehicles or vehicles and load which is or are either oversize or overweight, or both, when operating under a permit issued by the Commissioner of Transportation pursuant to section 14-270, shall not require such permit. Such annual permit fee shall be twenty dollars.
(d) Use of lamps and flashing lights except as authorized by this section shall be an infraction.

[1stWatch]

I agree with 1stWatch regarding the light bar. In Connecticut, one may use flashing amber, blue, and green lights on a POV that is operated on public roads if you have been granted a flashing light permit. Blue for volunteer firefighters (red for the Fire Chief), green for ambulance volunteers, and yellow for tow trucks, snow plows, security, etc.

My state doesn't have such a structured flashing light permit for private vehicles. I think they just assume the like of security vehicles and utility vehicles will just use yellow since that is most common. We have had some flap about security companies using white and blue lights. Some say it is legally permissible on private property because of a vague clause in the tr.c. about non-applicability of certain statutes on private property. I avoid the whole issue and don't use them at all.

[Mr. Security]

This area just LOVES to regulate everything and anything. Thus, the SQUARE badge laws. It gives the legislators something to do. :(

[HotelSecurity]

Quebec has very strict laws on this. It takes a permit for any kind of flasher. (Guess what? Permits cost money :D ). Security can get permits for yellow lights. Police & only police use red & blue. (They forced a local fire department to remove a blue light they had on a truck). We have a few organizations in Montreal that the public think are police but actually are security/bylaw enforcement units. You can tell that they are not police because they have red flashers but no blue. Other emergency services use red, red & white, red & yellow.

Volunteer firefighters presently are not allowed to use anything. But apparently they are looking into allowing them to use green lights but they won't be able to flash or rotate. (Those are used for command posts).

[Tennsix]

Red/Blue
Police, Funeral Escorts, Coroner

Red
Corrections, DOT, Hospital (other than EMS), EMS, Fire, Volunteer Fire Chief in POV

Blue (no siren)
Volunteer Fire. Blue lights are not considered emergency vehicle.

Green W/Siren
Volunteer EMS in POV�s. Off-Duty EMS in POV�s. Vehicles with green lights and siren are considered private emergency vehicles.

Flashing White Light
Any authorized emergency vehicle.

Amber
Security, DOT, Wreckers

Sheriff or BMV may designate any private vehicle as an emergency vehicle. Said vehicles may run red or red/white with siren

[Mr. Security]

This area just LOVES to regulate everything and anything. Thus, the SQUARE badge laws. It gives the legislators something to do. :(

Plus, it usually means revenue for the state. ;)

[Michael Ledgerwood]

I tend to disagree with the posts in this thread. First, c-tec is, I believe, a canadian company, so there laws may be different. Also, C-tec tends to post a lot on another forum I belong to (elightbars.org) and while no where near the big guys (whelen, fedsig, etc.) still gets favorable reviews from its members. Second, while it is true that most states regulate lights for security I do see a need for undercover lighting in security vehicles. I personally think that unmarked security cars are more professional than lightbar equipped cars. A comment was made that "slick top" cars look too much like the police. How can that be? One would thing that a lightbar would make it look more like a police car as it is more obvious. Keep in mind, that at least in my area, it is rare for security companies to drive crown vics. In fact more crown vics are driven by street trash than security here. I recently saw an obvious gang banger driving an old black and white, still had the spotlights and pushbars too. Keep in mind that security is about crime PREVENTION. whats the best way to prevent crime but to make people think a cop is on scene. And no I am not telling people to run around pretending to be cops. Rather, go with the perception. Every security company I have worked for I have been mistaken for the cops. It doesn't matter what my car looks like, or my uniform, no one takes the time to read it anyways. The bottom line is don't look at your equipment as "impersonating". You are only impersonating if you SAY you are a cop. Otherwise, jails would be full of impersonators. There is a need for "covert" type security vehicles and c-tec is merely saying they are out there if you want. Its up to you if you want the lights, no one is making you buy them. This is a vendor forum so Im not sure why these debates always rise when someone offers lights for sale.

[N. A. Corbier]

Here's the problem with slick tops. I drove one, and have been pulled over for "verifying that I'm not impersonating."

1. A marked security company vehicle with light bar will say something other than "Police" on it. This instantly denies any concept of impersonation.

2. Some states hit REAL hard on Impersonating by driving Police Vehicle. I actually observed several deputy sheriff's order a vehicle operator to remove from his vehicle a dash light, two deck lights, and an A-Frame Spotlight. After he did that, they cited him for a multitude of infractions, then released him. If he had not complied, he would of been arrested for "impersonating a police officer." This is because one deputy saw the guy pull in, and thought he was a deputy sergeant. Found out he wasn't, and was pissed off, then the real sergeant showed up, and shared the view.

[N. A. Corbier]

Here's the problem with slick tops. I drove one, and have been pulled over for "verifying that I'm not impersonating."

1. A marked security company vehicle with light bar will say something other than "Police" on it. This instantly denies any concept of impersonation.

2. Some states hit REAL hard on Impersonating by driving Police Vehicle. I actually observed several deputy sheriff's order a vehicle operator to remove from his vehicle a dash light, two deck lights, and an A-Frame Spotlight. After he did that, they cited him for a multitude of infractions, then released him. If he had not complied, he would of been arrested for "impersonating a police officer." This is because one deputy saw the guy pull in, and thought he was a deputy sergeant. Found out he wasn't, and was pissed off, then the real sergeant showed up, and shared the view.

[1stWatch]

...This is a vendor forum so Im not sure why these debates always rise when someone offers lights for sale.

The lights being for sale aren't really a point of objection to me, but looking at the subject matter posted by those here there is a strong and legitimate warning against purchasing the wrong type of lights. The correct type of lights for security vehicles should be marketed to the security business in general. Generally speaking, those that could be used to initiate traffic stops are too much of a temptation for those overzealous security officers who would not be able to resist the temptation to improperly use such equipment.

[Michael Ledgerwood]

I agree that it could be temptation for a security officer. But I thing that that responsibility rests with the officer and the vendor. My point is just that every time someone offers lights for sale it starts this huge debate. Truth be told, I could care less what the laws are in Michigan or California or anywhere else as thats not where I am at. I know the laws of my area and should only buy things accordingly. Granted, there will be those that will go out and abuse it.

N.A.Cobier, I understand what you are saying. My point is a police car in itself doesn't mean you are impersonating. Obviously if you drive a crown vic with 'police' on it thats a different story. You are impersonating only if you actually say you are a police officer. The story you mentioned, if it happend to me I would have told the officers to shove it as they have no legal authority. If the dash light was amber then theres no problem, I am not aware of any state that outlaws spotlights. It sounds like the cop was doing something wrong and affraid he got caught by his sgt.

[N. A. Corbier]

I agree that it could be temptation for a security officer. But I thing that that responsibility rests with the officer and the vendor. My point is just that every time someone offers lights for sale it starts this huge debate. Truth be told, I could care less what the laws are in Michigan or California or anywhere else as thats not where I am at. I know the laws of my area and should only buy things accordingly. Granted, there will be those that will go out and abuse it.

N.A.Cobier, I understand what you are saying. My point is a police car in itself doesn't mean you are impersonating. Obviously if you drive a crown vic with 'police' on it thats a different story. You are impersonating only if you actually say you are a police officer. The story you mentioned, if it happend to me I would have told the officers to shove it as they have no legal authority. If the dash light was amber then theres no problem, I am not aware of any state that outlaws spotlights. It sounds like the cop was doing something wrong and affraid he got caught by his sgt.

Most states have a law stating that no vehicle may mount a light which is capable of being pointed at the cabin of another motor vehicle. That's how most cops get the "take the spot light off," and find the vehicle "not road-worthy" if you refuse to - which results in a tow.

The dash lights were Amber, which is permissable. Florida's definition of impersonation is basically, "any activity or condition which makes a member of the public believe a person is a LEO of any type." Someone was arrested in Largo, Florida, for having a gun on (legal, he had a CCW), and wearing an LAPD hat. No kidding. He had on an LAPD hat, and was arrested for impersonating a LA Police Officer, in Largo, Florida.

I think this illustrates one of the basic problems. It doesn't matter the true legality of the sitatution. If the road officer believes its illegal, then it is unless your prepared to go the whole nine yards, be arrested or cited, and fight it in court. Your company must also be prepared to go the whole nine yards, as well.

Now, amusingly enough, you can drive an unmarked car. Just make sure it isn't a Ford Crown Vic, and that it doesn't have any visible lights in it. After all, the public can't tell the difference between an amber lens and a blue lens. Of course, the public doesn't really care one way or another.

[Taser]

The lights being for sale aren't really a point of objection to me, but looking at the subject matter posted by those here there is a strong and legitimate warning against purchasing the wrong type of lights. The correct type of lights for security vehicles should be marketed to the security business in general. Generally speaking, those that could be used to initiate traffic stops are too much of a temptation for those overzealous security officers who would not be able to resist the temptation to improperly use such equipment.
What? Any lightbar can be used to pull someone over. Whether it's on a dash, behind a grill, on the sideview mirrors, on the roof, wherever. Idiot security guards are going to do idiot things no matter where their lights are located.

Show me lights you can't pull someone over with. Stupid people will do stupid things, regardless of the lights on their car.

I too didn't exactly understand what everyone's beef was with this item. Different security companies located in different jurisdictions have different needs and different laws that apply to them. Let the owner of the company decide what is best for his patrol cars.

[Mr. Security]

....
Florida's definition of impersonation is basically, "any activity or condition which makes a member of the public believe a person is a LEO of any type."

Thankfully, CT adds "intent" to the definition. That makes it more difficult for some overzealous LEO to "make a mountain out of a molehill."

[N. A. Corbier]

Thankfully, CT adds "intent" to the definition. That makes it more difficult for some overzealous LEO to "make a mountain out of a molehill."

FSS 493 imposes an even harsher standard on contract security officers, as well, specifically making it a criminal offense to resemble any official person. This means you can't appear to be a utility worker, a park ranger, or anything else connected with the government or public enterprise, not just a law enforcement officer.

[Tennsix]

FSS 493 imposes an even harsher standard on contract security officers, as well, specifically making it a criminal offense to resemble any official person. This means you can't appear to be a utility worker, a park ranger, or anything else connected with the government or public enterprise, not just a law enforcement officer.
Same for Indiana. The statute is titled "Impersonating A Public Servant". However, it is a felony if one impersonates law enforcement personel-civillian or sworn. The state later created an EMT impersonation law to protect the private service EMT's

[Mr. Security]

Impersonating implies that one is intentionally trying to deceive the public for unscrupulous purposes. I can't see how someone dressed as a utility worker for any other reason is a criminal. Has anyone been successfully prosecuted for this?

[Tennsix]

Impersonating implies that one is intentionally trying to deceive the public for unscrupulous purposes. I can't see how someone dressed as a utility worker for any other reason is a criminal. Has anyone been successfully prosecuted for this?
Window peepers?

[N. A. Corbier]

Impersonating implies that one is intentionally trying to deceive the public for unscrupulous purposes. I can't see how someone dressed as a utility worker for any other reason is a criminal. Has anyone been successfully prosecuted for this?

Not that I know of, but I haven't looked. But, the idea is that a utility worker is a public utility worker, and therefore they are in a position of trust. It is illegal in Florida to oppose a utility worker when the utility worker is performing their lawful duties, it carries the same penality as it does a police officer.

[hemi444]

One of my old patrol cars had a little hot shot amber light for check point details and then a full blown out emergency response light package. It really defeated the purpose of spending all that money for an undercover system when you could only use on client property.

[1stWatch]

Not that I know of, but I haven't looked. But, the idea is that a utility worker is a public utility worker, and therefore they are in a position of trust. It is illegal in Florida to oppose a utility worker when the utility worker is performing their lawful duties, it carries the same penality as it does a police officer.

That is interesting. Texas refers to a security officer as a public servant now, but it is still not illegal to interfere with the duties of a security officer, although it is illegal to impersonate one. To place that authority on other types of positions like that says something indeed.

[bigdog]

We in florida, should try to get an impersonation of Security officer. we are waiting on the governor to sign a battery on security officer bill now.

[Michael Ledgerwood]

I find it stupid that one could be arrested for impersonation based solely on preception. When I walk around at work, I don't care how many times I have "Boeing Security" on my uniform no one thinks were security. In fact if you walk around Boeing and tell them to call security the usual response is "we have security?" Nope, everyone thinks we are the cops and they often refer to us as the Boeing Police Dept. We have done nothing to encourage this but it is the peoples perception based on our uniforms and job. Now, if one could be arrested for impersonation based on perception you would have 240 security officers sitting in jail right now. That doesn't include other companies either. I guess I am lucky that I live in WA where to be charged with a crime you have to show Intent, not just perception. Lights, Sirens, Cars, etc. don't make the police officer. I am a big advocate of running lights and sirens in crown vics for security companies. They can be useful tools in doing the job at hand which is to prevent crime and protect the client. If an idiot abuses them then punish him severely. That is the problem, the punishment never fits the crime. I have talked to several police officers who could care less if security had red/blue lights. But, because impersonating is not a very serious crime anyways they know certain idiots would abuse it and not be punished for it. Make the punishment fit the crime and the problem would go away.

[N. A. Corbier]

I find it stupid that one could be arrested for impersonation based solely on preception. When I walk around at work, I don't care how many times I have "Boeing Security" on my uniform no one thinks were security. In fact if you walk around Boeing and tell them to call security the usual response is "we have security?" Nope, everyone thinks we are the cops and they often refer to us as the Boeing Police Dept. We have done nothing to encourage this but it is the peoples perception based on our uniforms and job. Now, if one could be arrested for impersonation based on perception you would have 240 security officers sitting in jail right now. That doesn't include other companies either. I guess I am lucky that I live in WA where to be charged with a crime you have to show Intent, not just perception. Lights, Sirens, Cars, etc. don't make the police officer. I am a big advocate of running lights and sirens in crown vics for security companies. They can be useful tools in doing the job at hand which is to prevent crime and protect the client. If an idiot abuses them then punish him severely. That is the problem, the punishment never fits the crime. I have talked to several police officers who could care less if security had red/blue lights. But, because impersonating is not a very serious crime anyways they know certain idiots would abuse it and not be punished for it. Make the punishment fit the crime and the problem would go away.

You're in-house, and aren't subject to licensing under FSS 493. You wouldn't be subject to the perceptual impersonation statute, only the regular "intent" based Impersonating a Law Enforcement Officer.

Basically, 493 only applies to contract and armed of any type guards.

[Tennsix]

IC 35-44-2-3
Impersonation of a public servant
Sec. 3. A person who falsely represents that the person is a public servant, with intent to mislead and induce another person to submit to false official authority or otherwise to act to the other person's detriment in reliance on the false representation, commits impersonation of a public servant, a Class A misdemeanor. However, a person who falsely represents that the person is:
(1) a law enforcement officer; or
(2) an agent or employee of the department of state revenue, and collects any property from another person;
commits a Class D felony.

[Mr. Security]

Impersonating implies that one is intentionally trying to deceive the public for unscrupulous purposes. I can't see how someone dressed as a utility worker for any other reason is a criminal. Has anyone been successfully prosecuted for this?

"window peepers" falls into "unscrupulous purposes."

[Mr. Security]

IC 35-44-2-3
Impersonation of a public servant
Sec. 3. A person who falsely represents that the person is a public servant, with intent to mislead and induce another person to submit to false official authority or otherwise to act to the other person's detriment in reliance on the false representation, commits impersonation of a public servant, a Class A misdemeanor. However, a person who falsely represents that the person is:
(1) a law enforcement officer; or
(2) an agent or employee of the department of state revenue, and collects any property from another person;
commits a Class D felony.

Intent is the key word here. It is much harder to prove.

[darrell]

We in florida, should try to get an impersonation of Security officer. we are waiting on the governor to sign a battery on security officer bill now.


Assultign a security officer in Michigan is the same as assulting a police officer. Good old felony goes on your record. Been hit quite a few times while working at a mall and a trailer park... Those were the good old days though.......

Our vehicle doesn't have a lightbar on it but we have a Whelen Tallon LED light on the windshield. Here Security companies can use Amber and Green, but if your work inhouse security at a school you can run red but you can't activate it on the road unless its to block traffic and nothing else.

[N. A. Corbier]

Impersonating a Watchman is already on the books, but nobody knows what the hell a Watchman is. Last reference was in the 1940s, as someone appointed by the Sheriff to guard Vital War Materials. Impersonating, interfering with, or opposing a watchman was a felony, and possibly a national security issue.

FOP has model criminal laws for Police Officers, someone should come up with some for Security Personnel.

Such as:
Impersonating is a crime; Opposing lawful duties is a crime; battery is a crime (job specific instead of regular); codified Citizen's Arrest (Much easier than getting security called peace officers); codified authority to carry firearms with specific security[b] related training; codified authority to carry batons, tasers, and OC with specific [b]security related training; codified authority to use force to protect property from criminal/tortious interference; codified standard for "security persons," including minimum training standards for protective services agencies as well as observation agencies....

The list goes on. Might have to fire up word.

[Tennsix]

Intent is the key word here. It is much harder to prove.
This incident exemplifies your position. This guy had all the paraphernalia of an impersonator but the police have yet to determine his intention.
Police Impersonator? (http://www.wthr.com/Global/story.asp?S=4889294)

His CVPI was equipped with red lights, siren, two-way radio with public safety frequencies, spot light, DARE plates, etc. There were also magnetic vehicle emblems stowed in the car. The emblems were shields that read, �ATS Enforcement Officer� and featured the state seal.

Also in the car was a full rig (including a stolen portable two-way radio with public safety frequencies, handcuffs, Airsoft replica of a S&W .9mm) and a uniform.

And just for good measure, his driver�s license was suspended.

[N. A. Corbier]

See, to me, this story is amusing. He's guilty of:

Posession of Stolen Property
Driving while Suspended, Limited, Revoked

That's it. Having a plate on the back of your car that says "Police Interceptor" (Its not a CVPI, take a look, it looks like a Chevy Caprice Classic, the plate's in the wrong place) means nothing ... its a car designation from Ford.

Having a "security guard" uniform, but then a "police-type holster" is also silly. The police do not have a market on "police-type holsters."

Either the guy is a police impersonator, or he isn't. The media had to note that sometime in his past he was in security. I'd like to know what his current job is. Or was.

My biggest issue with the way the media deals with "impersonation" cases is that anything remotely realted to law enforcement is considered "police only" property, which conveys the message that anyone wearing "police" gear is an impersonator, etc.

[Tennsix]

It�s a 1995 Crown Vic. I am guessing it isn't a police interceptor. I am thinking he got the "PI" plate off of another car and placed on his (in the wrong place). You are correct in addressing the car model and the �police style� equipment remarks by the reporter. The news anchor setting up the story (she is a former attorney) mentioned he is currently a security officer. The reporter said he was once a security officer. In theory, any number of vocations could use a car with that equipment. I also enjoyed the comments about the portable radio. They implied it was illegal to have because it looked like a police radio. I think the best part for me was the toy gun.

[ycaso77]

I agree with 1stWatch regarding the light bar. In Connecticut, one may use flashing amber, blue, and green lights on a POV that is operated on public roads if you have been granted a flashing light permit. Blue for volunteer firefighters (red for the Fire Chief), green for ambulance volunteers, and yellow for tow trucks, snow plows, security, etc.

And the all red bar if you meet the qualifications as a first responder ( private university forces like Fairfield, Sacred Heart and Wesleyan and factories like Sikorsky). Then I've seen the purple funeral lights lately. As an aside if our cars come across a broken down vehicle or accident within the city they can activate the amber Whelans until one or the other PD arrive by joint agreement.

[ycaso77]

My state doesn't have such a structured flashing light permit for private vehicles. I think they just assume the like of security vehicles and utility vehicles will just use yellow since that is most common. We have had some flap about security companies using white and blue lights. Some say it is legally permissible on private property because of a vague clause in the tr.c. about non-applicability of certain statutes on private property. I avoid the whole issue and don't use them at all.

I know back when I was a volunteer firefighter I had some questions in Virginia about the blue lights in my vehicle ( most southern states use all blue for police). After a quick explanation had a pleasant talk about lights, pay, working conditions and the job in general. Worst was when I was traveling across New York for a transport from Pennsylvania and a NY Trooper told me I had to cover my light bar while in state- in a marked police car no less. Any one else have a similair experience?

[ycaso77]

What? Any lightbar can be used to pull someone over. Whether it's on a dash, behind a grill, on the sideview mirrors, on the roof, wherever. Idiot security guards are going to do idiot things no matter where their lights are located.

Show me lights you can't pull someone over with. Stupid people will do stupid things, regardless of the lights on their car.

I too didn't exactly understand what everyone's beef was with this item. Different security companies located in different jurisdictions have different needs and different laws that apply to them. Let the owner of the company decide what is best for his patrol cars.

In CT you're lucky if they pull over for full red/blues, mirror strobes and grill lights with the siren going full blast- its thier road as far as the public is concerned. Also here you can buy any type/color light you want, just dont put it in your vehicle unless you have the paperwork.

[ycaso77]

I find it stupid that one could be arrested for impersonation based solely on preception. When I walk around at work, I don't care how many times I have "Boeing Security" on my uniform no one thinks were security. In fact if you walk around Boeing and tell them to call security the usual response is "we have security?" Nope, everyone thinks we are the cops and they often refer to us as the Boeing Police Dept. We have done nothing to encourage this but it is the peoples perception based on our uniforms and job. Now, if one could be arrested for impersonation based on perception you would have 240 security officers sitting in jail right now. That doesn't include other companies either. I guess I am lucky that I live in WA where to be charged with a crime you have to show Intent, not just perception. Lights, Sirens, Cars, etc. don't make the police officer. I am a big advocate of running lights and sirens in crown vics for security companies. They can be useful tools in doing the job at hand which is to prevent crime and protect the client. If an idiot abuses them then punish him severely. That is the problem, the punishment never fits the crime. I have talked to several police officers who could care less if security had red/blue lights. But, because impersonating is not a very serious crime anyways they know certain idiots would abuse it and not be punished for it. Make the punishment fit the crime and the problem would go away.


One flaw with security running the same lights as the PD is the possibility a citizen may flad down a vehicle thinking its a cop for a crime in progress and guess what- its not. Citizen sues, police are unhappy and newspapers have a field day with " fake police" endangering the public. Its happened here and we have the laws to show for it regarding light colors. Impersonation is a serious crime, we had a string of women pulled over by impersonators, impersonators trolling near schools and even rolling up on people. Someone is going to wind up seriously hurt. We even had a state university president pulling over speeders with his badge and a light he purchased for himself. In my opinion lights need stringent controls.

[HotelSecurity]

Impersonation is a serious crime, we had a string of women pulled over by impersonators, impersonators trolling near schools and even rolling up on people. Someone is going to wind up seriously hurt. We even had a state university president pulling over speeders with his badge and a light he purchased for himself. In my opinion lights need stringent controls.

Back in the mid 70's when I worked for Pinkerton they were removing the yellow flashers off of the patrol cars & we had cloth "shields" on our breasts & hats. I was told it was because of an incident like above. A patrolman was pulling over women.

[1stWatch]

...a citizen may flag down a vehicle thinking its a cop for a crime in progress and guess what- its not...

This is precisely why most of our cars don't have flashing lights anymore and for the ones that do, I don't turn them on. I also never roll down the window for people when out on the road between properties. They need to call 911, not expect me to replace the cops.

[Tennsix]

This is precisely why most of our cars don't have flashing lights anymore and for the ones that do, I don't turn them on. I also never roll down the window for people when out on the road between properties. They need to call 911, not expect me to replace the cops.
I was once flagged down while driving my POV and wearing T-shirt and sweat pants. The five-year-old girl some how recognized me. She stopped me because she wondered from home while her mom was sleeping (passed out drunk). I had been at their house before.

[Mr. Security]

I was once flagged down while driving my POV and wearing T-shirt and sweat pants. The five-year-old girl some how recognized me. She stopped me because she wondered from home while her mom was sleeping (passed out drunk). I had been at their house before.

I'd stay away from undercover work if I were you. :D

[Tennsix]

I'd stay away from undercover work if I were you. :D
Hmm.... :cool:

[Lawson]

I was once flagged down while driving my POV and wearing T-shirt and sweat pants. The five-year-old girl some how recognized me.

Isnt that your usual duty uniform anyway? :p ;) :D

[Tennsix]

Isnt that your usual duty uniform anyway? :p ;) :D
yeah... complete with my Jeff Gordan cap. My dress uniform is a Nike running suit.

[Lawson]

Hiring? :D

[Michael Ledgerwood]

One flaw with security running the same lights as the PD is the possibility a citizen may flad down a vehicle thinking its a cop for a crime in progress and guess what- its not. Citizen sues, police are unhappy and newspapers have a field day with " fake police" endangering the public. Its happened here and we have the laws to show for it regarding light colors. Impersonation is a serious crime, we had a string of women pulled over by impersonators, impersonators trolling near schools and even rolling up on people. Someone is going to wind up seriously hurt. We even had a state university president pulling over speeders with his badge and a light he purchased for himself. In my opinion lights need stringent controls.

I'm going to disagree with your statement but please don't take it personally as states have different laws and what not. Getting sued because someone "thought" you were a cop is ludacris. I think here in WA a judge would throw the case right out of court. A cop is sworn to protect and serve. However, it is common sense to call 911 and report the crime. Flagging police down is never a good idea because even in a real cop car there may not be a real cop driving it. I know the pds around here love to have citizen patrols and senior patrols as well as explorers and cadets and they all drive regular police cars. Impersonation is a serious crime but it doesn't have to be if you educate your citizens. I personally could care less what color lights i have. When I worked for my 1st security company i drove a car with a full size amber streethawk. The car was a Ford Tarus and had a simple round decal on the door. Guess what? People still thought i was a cop. When I worked for the PD, I took a complaint that a traffic violation had occured in front of a marked expedition yet the cop did nothin. Come to find out it was a fully marked FIRE DEPT expedition. I had a similar complaint where some one wanted our publics works pickups to do a traffic stop. You aren't guilty of impersonation until you tell someone you are a cop and you have the intent to impersonate a cop. Anyone can buy lights, sirens, cop cars, uniforms, radio, etc. because the police don't have the market. Red/blue lights are NOT police lights. Red/blue lights are simply that, red and blue lights that are most commonly used for police. The only thing that is universally restricted is items directly identifying you as the police. Now some areas may regulate certain items and that is fine. But just being in posession of an item is not impersonation. I drive a marked Impalla with a red lightbar, prisioner cage, siren, spotlight, pushbumpers. I were a "police" uniform, have a badge and a radio. Am I impersonating? NO I am not. Why? because I am not identifying myself as a cop. If people mistake me for the police thats their problem not mine because I am not telling them Im the police. Infact everything we have says security on it. My whole point to this longwided statement is that impersonation is not based on equipment or lights, it is based on intent and the media has helped to blow it out of proportion. I know of several cases where someone was called an impersonator for having improper lights. Guess what, they were only imposed a traffic violation and let go, no intent to impersonate.

[ycaso77]

To start, I'm not the great all knowing Oz so I never take it personally if someone disagrees with me. A lawsuit due to a member of the public thinking you were LE is ludicrous, but in our litigation crazed society its a danger worth considering. Flagging down a cruiser is a common enough occurence in my neck of the woods that its taken for granted. I whole heartedly agree with your point that to the general public, one emergency equipped vehicle is as good to complain to as another. Where I work we have several departments within a few square miles- all of whom have almost the same uniforms and graphic designs on thier vehicles. Who is police and who is security leads to endless guessing as to what department was involved when you get the " I told the officer" calls. As to lights, red/blue combos by law here are for LE only- even having them mounted in your car but not operable will draw attention and some pointed questions. If you're allowed to have them, fine. But why would a non-authorized person need to purchase or have these lights in a pov? There aren't any legitimate reasons that I can think of unless you want that "police" look. Basically its back to my closing comment- stringent controls on light purchases and you have no impersonator problems. If you purchase the lights in an improper color you intend to use them for something, and that questionable intent is what would make me suspicious.

[Tennsix]

But why would a non-authorized person need to purchase or have these lights in a pov? There aren't any legitimate reasons that I can think of unless you want that "police" look. Basically its back to my closing comment- stringent controls on light purchases and you have no impersonator problems. If you purchase the lights in an improper color you intend to use them for something, and that questionable intent is what would make me suspicious.
Agreed. Why would a private citizen have lights and siren, if there was no intent. Even if the person says he would never use them sooner or later, he will succumb to temptation and flip the switch.

Before that happens, the person enjoys the attention he gets when people see the car and misguidedly think it is a police car. After a while, that high wears off and he needs more to get his fix.

[Mr. Security]

Driving a Crown-Vic police look-alike vehicle could be hazardous to your health. Ambushes on the police seem to be on the increase. As noted above, the public are not very discriminating about deciding what is or isn't a police vehicle. What if a deranged individual decides that you are the "police" and you end up being the target? Not likely? I doubt if the police officers who were ambushed recently started their shift worried about being ambushed. But it can and did happen. Just something to consider before driving a POV that looks like a police car.

[N. A. Corbier]

OK, I'm going to address this from the company angle.

Most states pick one color and outlaw it for anyone except law enforcement. Usually, this is blue. In some east coast states, its actually red. Take the other color, and give that to EMS and Fire Department.

Most traffic codes make it a criminal (not violation) offense to have a flashing, rotating, or steady blue (or red depending on where you are, but you get the point) lamp on your vehicle. Period. It does not even have to be operable, it just has to be blue.

This means that if your vehicle isn't licensed, isn't registered, and never leaves your private property - its still a criminal act to be in posession of a vehicle with a blue light in it.

Now, the other colors are addressed only on public roads. The traffic code specifies that moving and standing violations are only enforcable on public right of ways and roads, yadda yadda yadda.

Sirens, usually, as well are a moving violation. Blast your siren tones and air horn tone all you want, but not on public property. Now, what is "illegal" about sirens on private property is that they violate the city/county/state noise ordinance. Usually, only authorized emergency vehicles are exempt from the noise ordinance.

In WI, I can put red lights to the front on every car we have, full sized streethawks or Whelen Edge 12-strobes. Red/White/Green, if I feel like. An employee cannot activate these lights on public roads unless instructed to by a public employee or officer, who can override traffic regulations on his authority as an agent of the state.

The only color I cannot have is blue. Blue in itself is illegal. Blue, under state law, is specifically reserved for public law enforcement vehicles. This means, that if you have a blue light on your vehicle, you are guilty of a criminal offense. You can also use the reserved status as prima fiscae (someone spell that right) evidence of impersonation, as the reasonable man knows that it is reserved for police only.

Now, what colors am I probably going to stick on the cars? Either red/white/green, or amber/white/green. Why? It doesn't matter what kind of lights we have, we can't activate them except on our sites, which means that the "amber only" rule is out the window.

And for those of you wondering, yes, I like Billy Holcomb's idea for amber/green combination in Florida reserved for security.

[Tennsix]

In Indiana, red lights are the color of authority; blue lights have no official standing. Volunteer fire run blue lights (no siren) but other cars do not have to yield to them. Green lights (and siren) are reserved for off-duty and volunteer EMS. The state recognizes green lights as “private emergency vehicles” and they may operate on public roads. Only emergency vehicles may display a flashing white light.

Indiana goes on to say an emergency vehicle or a private emergency vehicle (green lights) only has to run red lights or siren but not both.

No unauthorized vehicles may run red, green, white lights and/or siren on public or private property.

Indiana law enforcement runs red and blue lights. Theoretically, traffic is not required to yield to a police car running blue lights only (no siren). However, traffic does have to yield to the siren, even without lights.

[1stWatch]

Driving a Crown-Vic police look-alike vehicle could be hazardous to your health. Ambushes on the police seem to be on the increase. As noted above, the public are not very discriminating about deciding what is or isn't a police vehicle. What if a deranged individual decides that you are the "police" and you end up being the target? Not likely? I doubt if the police officers who were ambushed recently started their shift worried about being ambushed. But it can and did happen. Just something to consider before driving a POV that looks like a police car.

In my area ambushes on security are a lot more common. Having a police style uniform and driving a Crown Victoria has kept me out of trouble in this city since it adds to command presence. Hateful subjects are a lot more likely to attack a security guard here since they know they are more likely to be able to get away with it. I have seen more attacks on unarmed security guards working in an outdoor environment who were wearing light blue or white uniform shirts than on those who carried weapons, wore dark blue or black uniforms, or had a muscular build that deterred trouble by its appearance.

The problem I see with individuals who have a Crown Victoria as a personal vehicle is with the intent they may have while driving around in it. I can think of at least three individuals who saved up and bought a brand new c.v. and outfitted the thing with fancy l.e.d. lights, a prisoner cage, a fully functional siren, and other equipment that costed several thousand dollars because they thought it "looked cool".

One of those guys wanted to be a cop way too bad, as in he probably had a stone idol of a policeman in his room he bowed down to. This guy ended up getting fired after using his car while on duty to follow and watch the police. Then there was another one who was doing drugs on duty. He would pose as property security where a drug house was and pretend he was shaking down drug dealers when he was actually buying drugs and transporting them for the dealers. He was fired after he failed a urinalysis test. The third one, my favorite, was busted for committing an armed robbery off-duty with his weapon while doing -guess what- a traffic stop on somebody. These are the kind of individuals who should not have any of that equipment that is identical to law enforcement.

Now on the other hand, I do see people who buy c.v.'s used from an auction or a dealer that reconditions used police car engines and resells them and some of those cars still have leftover equipment on them, usually an a-frame spotlight still mounted on the door. People should be conscientious enough to remove things like red and blue flashers and the siren bell from them though. If not illegal altogether, some of those things will at least make those individuals who write tickets for a living give the driver long hard looks for months at a time.

[Tennsix]

There was a a guy in our area that was like that. He worked as a reserve for a neighboring PD and applied to our PD. He worked a maintenance job in our jurisdiction. He would often take his meal breaks with us and talk shop. He drove a nice (real nice) unmarked CVPI with all the trimmings. He told us it was his take-home car.

One night, the repo man showed up at our PD. He was looking for this guy’s car. He had only made one payment in three years. We found his car “hidden” in a parking garage but we could not find him.

We took all of the police and emergency equipment before the car was taken. He has several pair of cuffs, police ID, two badges, two hand guns, red/blue lights, siren, two-way radio, and a lot of other stuff. Because we could not locate him, we called his PD to turn over the equipment. He chief told us he had only worked one shift in two years. They officially “fired” (reserve officer are volunteer) him several months before but they could not get their badge and ID back. He purchased everything aside from the ID and the one badge. That was two years ago and we still have his stuff.

Oh... some of the equipment, including all four tires, was pilfered from the PD’s inventory.

[N. A. Corbier]

See, these are the guys who scare me. And what's worse, is that the "average street cop's" take is that nobody associated with security (cause we all know Tennsix's guy was a guard, he had to be) should have anything to do with police vehicles.

If I have a CVPI with all the bells and whistles, and it has lettering and graphics on the side that identify it down to agency, there is not a problem there unless your unable or unwilling to read. Period.

[Michael Ledgerwood]

I will probably make this my final post on this topic as it keeps going in circles and is way off topic anyways. I whole hartedly agree with the fact its stupid to outfit your pov with lights sirens etc. Here in WA amber or amber white can be used for security. A few run green or red lights though with permission from LE. My point is this, by itself posessing red/blues, sirens, etc. does not constitute impersonation. Now in reality will you get in trouble, most likely. It is a traffic VIOLATION to posses improper colored lights in this state. It is a CRIMINAL violation to use improper colored lights or equipment to represent yourself as a public servant. You may have anything you want on private property in this state. Bottom line is this. You need intent to impersonate an officer. Is it stupid to buy the equipment for your POV, yes. And even if it isn't a criminal act, doesn't mean the police won't have a chat with you.

[Tennsix]

Possessing prohibited lights and siren is not a crime, per se. Some would argue that this topic is subject to prosecutorial review. It would most definitely be traffic or equipment violation but turning on the lights and/or siren is arguably a false representation of official authority.

Depending on the circumstances, simply displaying red/blue lights could be argued as impersonation. For example: A pervert trolling a park in an “unmarked” car with non illuminated red/blue lights, spot light, push bar, antennas with perceptible intent to attract unsuspecting children.

The suspect never vocally identified himself as a police officer, his vehicle is not marked as a police car, nor are the lights turned on. Most people would agree such a person was intentionally misleading people to think he was a cop.

[Bill Warnock]

Possessing prohibited lights and siren is not a crime, per se. Some would argue that this topic is subject to prosecutorial review. It would most definitely be traffic or equipment violation but turning on the lights and/or siren is arguably a false representation of official authority.

Depending on the circumstances, simply displaying red/blue lights could be argued as impersonation. For example: A pervert trolling a park in an “unmarked” car with non illuminated red/blue lights, spot light, push bar, antennas with perceptible intent to attract unsuspecting children.

The suspect never vocally identified himself as a police officer, his vehicle is not marked as a police car, nor are the lights turned on. Most people would agree such a person was intentionally misleading people to think he was a cop.
TENNSIX:
In some state codes there are contraband and prohibited items. I know that contraband means those things that are unlawful for you to possess at any time for any reason. This is like radar detectors in my state, Commonwealth of Virginia there use is illegal, considered contraband and subject to confiscation. Turn them off and put them in the trunk.
Prohibited items are in a murky legal area, and as you have written, subject to prosecutorial review.
Courthouses have policies involving prohibited items.
Enjoy the day,
Bill

[Tennsix]

TENNSIX:
In some state codes there are contraband and prohibited items. I know that contraband means those things that are unlawful for you to possess at any time for any reason. This is like radar detectors in my state, Commonwealth of Virginia there use is illegal, considered contraband and subject to confiscation. Turn them off and put them in the trunk.
Prohibited items are in a murky legal area, and as you have written, subject to prosecutorial review.
Courthouses have policies involving prohibited items.
Enjoy the day,
Bill
Considering all the impersonation incidents we hear about, I think such a statute is appropriate.

[Charger]

Driving a Crown-Vic police look-alike vehicle could be hazardous to your health. Ambushes on the police seem to be on the increase. As noted above, the public are not very discriminating about deciding what is or isn't a police vehicle. What if a deranged individual decides that you are the "police" and you end up being the target? Not likely? I doubt if the police officers who were ambushed recently started their shift worried about being ambushed. But it can and did happen. Just something to consider before driving a POV that looks like a police car.

Brings to mind an incident a few years ago while I was working patrol...

I had just started my shift, finished briefing, and had hit the road. About 5 miles from the office, I had pulled off the highway to make my first patrol hit.. As I'm going over the freeway overpass, this little purple nissan comes FLYING up behind me, swings into the left lane, and suddenly swerves towards me trying to run me off the bridge! Fortunately I was able to swerve up onto the sidewalk and stay away from the rail, and he took off down the road. A few seconds later, half a dozen units go flying by in pursuit.

That company uses Impalas, rather than CVPIs, but apparently he thought I was just another cop waiting to take him out. At first I thought it was odd, because none of the departments in that area use any Impalas, (or at least, didn't at the time), but in the heat of the moment he probably saw the stripes/lettering and the spotlight, and just assumed.

Oh, and what did I get from my supe. later on? "Well, good job on not getting hit!" LOL... :D