Weapons on the Job?

[knotquiteawake]

For a long time the only authorized weapons for Campus Security here was your ASP and your Pepper Foam.

However after two armed car jackings, over the course of about a month and a half, the Univeristy President gave the green light to Arm the Officers.

So now in the next three to four months or so we will be trained to use a gun and tazer.
Apparently we will be required to carry all of the following while on duty:
ASP
Pepper spray
Tazer
9mm Beretta
PLUS all the regular stuff (maglight, radio, cuffs, spare clips, ect..)

How many of you security guards are armed? How did it feel if you were around for a switch from unarmed to armed (or switching from a unarmed job to an armed job). Also, the Tazer, useful or never used?
thanks

[Lawson]

Well, being 20, I have not yet worked as an Armed Guard, however; I have carried the M26 Taser on my hip. It was effective enough for me. A lot of people thought I was carrying around a Glock so it had that "armed look". I only deployed it from my holster once and held it down to my side, that did the job for that instance, I never deployed it onto someone. I think it is an effective tool, especially the M26 or M18 for unarmed officers. Now, obviously it has its downfalls as you now look armed, and I believe, somewhere, it is shown as a statistic that armed officers are more likely to be shot or shot at that unarmed officers. Now, carrying a tool that only has a temporary incapacitating blow that is only effective for 21ft, and the carrier typically only carries 1-3 rounds vs. a weapon that can potentially shoot through cars, has and effective kill range of 21+ YARDS and the ability to kill, and the carrier can carry anwhere from 1-100+ rounds... You are definately in a losing battle.

IMO, as an Unarmed officer, one who went from carrying a blank belt to handcuffs, OC, Taser, gloves, a mini mag, a full maglite, and a radio/scanner... you look a lot more like you are capable of putting the hurt on someone, and typically are more effective in security.

[Taser]

I have found the Taser to be extremely useful. I have deployed it, and yes, it drops them like flies. Other instances, they see that red dot on their chest and it really gets them to stop doing whatever it was they were doing.

[histfan71]

I'm glad to hear that Biola is going armed. I have always been of the opinion that if a college campus has live-in students, i.e. dorms, then the campus security or police should be armed.

I worked for a small college police department in Long Beach and we had about 400 students who lived in our dorms, but we were unarmed, even though we were sworn police.

I understand that you used to work closely with Azusa Pacific University Campus Safety. Is that still the case?

[Mr. Security]

....
How many of you security guards are armed? How did it feel if you were around for a switch from unarmed to armed (or switching from a unarmed job to an armed job). Also, the Tazer, useful or never used?
thanks

Everyone here knows that I prefer unarmed security. It is also a matter of record on this forum that armed security is necessary at times. I understand that. My advice to you is to take some time and meditate on how well you would deal with the emotional and mental trauma that often accompanies the taking of another person's life. Some have no problem with it because they view it as self-defense or they actually had to use deadly force in the past. Others, including some police officers, have never been able to live with the knowledge that they were put in a position that required them to use lethal force.

It's a serious matter and the time to decide is before, not after you use deadly force.

[Michael Ledgerwood]

Here at Boeing we are armed and used to carry the Taser X26 (since got rid of it). In the year and a half we had the Taser it was never deployed once. I have been shocked with it and it is effective. We have deployed pepper spray several times. In the entire history of the company, I have only heard of one shooting. My opinion on armed security is it is necessary and has its bennefits. In a college campus environment, I am a little hesitant to go along with armed security. From what you say it sounds like your campus is in the wrong neck of the woods and that firearms may be warrented. I would recommend getting as much training as possible in the use of your firearm and the Use of Force Continum. God forbid you ever shoot anyone, you want to prove that you had the training and that you can justify without a doubt the shooting. If it were me, I would put the officers through a psychological test first to make sure they were fit to go armed.

[knotquiteawake]

Ok to answer the couple questions and make a couple comments.


First, we are not sworn peace officers but we have a Memorandum of Understanding with the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department as per Penal Code Section 830.7 giving us the powers of arrest of a peace officer as specified in section 836. So we are expected to make arrests, clear buildings, respond to suspicious persons calls ect...

Our Chief has a good relationship with APU Security and the Chiefs of several other Universities but our officers don't do much together except at Basketball games where they coordinate the crowd/riot control.

We are located in La Mirada CA, which is supposed to be a very safe city, however it is very close to Norwalk, Downey, Compton, Hawaiian Gardens, all of which are not very safe. So sometimes we get some bleed over crimes.
In general though the crime is not that bad, the recent car jackings woke the university leaders up and they decided to be proactive and not wait for someone to get hurt.

Our relationship with LA County Sheriff is good but their response times are poor often enough to feel a little worried every time we call them out. So in the interest of officer safety the admin decided to arm us. We run into situations where it is not likely but still possible we will have to draw our weapon. Like clearing buildings that the alarm has gone off but there isn't enough evidence to think it was forced (if it looks forced we're calling the Sheriff), or confronting someone who was seen looking into car windows and pulling handles. While I don't think the gun arming is totally necessary, the admin has good enough reasons to justify it, and I get paid significantly more (but still not enough).

The comment about psychological testing is so true, and I hope they do, because there are certain guys I work with that I don't want within 10 feet of a gun. But personal feelings aside, from my meetings with our leaders it sounds like there is going to be a very strong emphasis on proper training. We will be working either with Rio Hondo Police Academy or the Orange County Sheriff's Academy to do our training.

Oh, and as a side note, our Chief is getting us the bright yellow Tazers, why?, well his only reasoning was that he didn't want us to confuse them with our real guns while on duty...

[Mr. Security]

.....
Oh, and as a side note, our Chief is getting us the bright yellow Tazers, why?, well his only reasoning was that he didn't want us to confuse them with our real guns while on duty...

So, he has that much confidence in your department. :eek:

[N. A. Corbier]

So, he has that much confidence in your department. :eek:

Don't laugh. If your carrying the M18, its happened before. In California. A suspect who was kicking out a cruiser window was fatally shot with a Glock 17 by a city police officer. She stated, "I'll calm him down," opened the door a crack, drew her Glock, and put a round in his chest.

She then totally broke down and started screaming at the deputies she had responded to assist and transport for to save the suspect. He was pronounced dead.

[Mr. Security]

Don't laugh. If your carrying the M18, its happened before. In California. A suspect who was kicking out a cruiser window was fatally shot with a Glock 17 by a city police officer. She stated, "I'll calm him down," opened the door a crack, drew her Glock, and put a round in his chest.

She then totally broke down and started screaming at the deputies she had responded to assist and transport for to save the suspect. He was pronounced dead.

Good grief! Thanks for setting me straight on that one. :o

[N. A. Corbier]

Good grief! Thanks for setting me straight on that one. :o
Its one of the reasons the X26 is smaller, and worn cross-draw.

[Mr. Security]

Its one of the reasons the X26 is smaller, and worn cross-draw.

That's the type that I'm familiar with.

[Taser]

Don't laugh. If your carrying the M18, its happened before. In California. A suspect who was kicking out a cruiser window was fatally shot with a Glock 17 by a city police officer. She stated, "I'll calm him down," opened the door a crack, drew her Glock, and put a round in his chest.

She then totally broke down and started screaming at the deputies she had responded to assist and transport for to save the suspect. He was pronounced dead.
Yeah, personally I can't even wrap my head around that. I can never imagine mistaking my M series Taser for a Glock. First of all, the Taser feels completely different in your hand. Second of all, you have to flip a switch to activate the Taser...on a Glock you don't flip anything. Third, when you flip the switch there is a very obvious laser.

But, if she were really carrying the M18, which is highly unusual for law enforcement, it would explain why there was no laser. The M18 and the M18L are the civiliar versions; the M18 has no laser. The M26 is the one commonly carried by law enforcement and it does have a laser.

However, keeping all this in mind, I did recently reconfigure my belt setup for where I carry the Taser. I was carrying it in a right hand thigh holster underneath my Glock. I switched it to a left hand thigh holster so now it's impossible for me to mix them up.

But I still stand by my original statement that I can't imagine mixing the two up. It's like not noticing the difference between your baton and your gun. I mean really, if this woman had that much trouble discerning between objects by feel, she had no business being a police officer. Don't get me wrong, I feel horrible for her, but there's not really any excuse for it. The Taser and the Glock are NOT similar in feel or operation. The untrained eye could certainly be fooled when glancing at someone's belt, but the operator should definitely be able to tell the difference.

[N. A. Corbier]

Yeah, personally I can't even wrap my head around that. I can never imagine mistaking my M series Taser for a Glock. First of all, the Taser feels completely different in your hand. Second of all, you have to flip a switch to activate the Taser...on a Glock you don't flip anything. Third, when you flip the switch there is a very obvious laser.

But, if she were really carrying the M18, which is highly unusual for law enforcement, it would explain why there was no laser. The M18 and the M18L are the civiliar versions; the M18 has no laser. The M26 is the one commonly carried by law enforcement and it does have a laser.

However, keeping all this in mind, I did recently reconfigure my belt setup for where I carry the Taser. I was carrying it in a right hand thigh holster underneath my Glock. I switched it to a left hand thigh holster so now it's impossible for me to mix them up.

But I still stand by my original statement that I can't imagine mixing the two up. It's like not noticing the difference between your baton and your gun. I mean really, if this woman had that much trouble discerning between objects by feel, she had no business being a police officer. Don't get me wrong, I feel horrible for her, but there's not really any excuse for it. The Taser and the Glock are NOT similar in feel or operation. The untrained eye could certainly be fooled when glancing at someone's belt, but the operator should definitely be able to tell the difference.

I believe she was carrying an M26. With the exception of the dataport, aren't the M18 and M26 identical? Only difference being that the M26 is shipped and loaded with the 25 foot cartridges, and the M18 is sold with the 15 foot "civilian" cartridge?

Never really played with the M18/M26, when we were talking with Taser, the X26 had just came out, and they were trying to sell us the X26. As previously noted, Taser did a 180 on non-sworn sales of the X26.

[Taser]

I believe she was carrying an M26. With the exception of the dataport, aren't the M18 and M26 identical? Only difference being that the M26 is shipped and loaded with the 25 foot cartridges, and the M18 is sold with the 15 foot "civilian" cartridge?

Never really played with the M18/M26, when we were talking with Taser, the X26 had just came out, and they were trying to sell us the X26. As previously noted, Taser did a 180 on non-sworn sales of the X26.
In the M Series, Taser makes an M18, M18L, and M26. They are all exactly the same except for a few differences. The M18 does not have a laser sight, the M18L and M26 do. The M18's deliver 18 pulses of electricity per second, while the M26 delivers 26 pulses per second. They are all 50,000 volts, but the M18's ampage or something is lower, making them less dangerous. And as you mentioned, the 15 ft. vs 25 ft. cartridges.

As for data ports, I can't speak for the M18, by my M18L does indeed have one. Whether or not it works, I have no idea. But there is definitely a port on the rear of the unit that allows you to plug something in, about the size of an ethernet cord jack.

But they do all perform exactly the same. You flip the safety off and press the trigger. I just can't imagine mistaking one for a Glock, both in weight, feel, sight, trigger, the fact that it HAS a safety, everything.

[Tennsix]

I'm glad to hear that Biola is going armed. I have always been of the opinion that if a college campus has live-in students, i.e. dorms, then the campus security or police should be armed.

I worked for a small college police department in Long Beach and we had about 400 students who lived in our dorms, but we were unarmed, even though we were sworn police.

I understand that you used to work closely with Azusa Pacific University Campus Safety. Is that still the case?
All College and university police should be armed whether or not they area a residential campus or not. Such officers confront people from all walks of life, not just students. Furthermore, alot of students are no angles either.

[N. A. Corbier]

In the M Series, Taser makes an M18, M18L, and M26. They are all exactly the same except for a few differences. The M18 does not have a laser sight, the M18L and M26 do. The M18's deliver 18 pulses of electricity per second, while the M26 delivers 26 pulses per second. They are all 50,000 volts, but the M18's ampage or something is lower, making them less dangerous. And as you mentioned, the 15 ft. vs 25 ft. cartridges.

As for data ports, I can't speak for the M18, by my M18L does indeed have one. Whether or not it works, I have no idea. But there is definitely a port on the rear of the unit that allows you to plug something in, about the size of an ethernet cord jack.

But they do all perform exactly the same. You flip the safety off and press the trigger. I just can't imagine mistaking one for a Glock, both in weight, feel, sight, trigger, the fact that it HAS a safety, everything.

Neither could I. But, for some reason, its happened multiple times. I think this is why they made the M series stickers, why they made bright yellow ones, etc. There was a training bulletin that the officer's agency "ignored" stating that Tasers should be worn off-side, due to the problem of sympathetic draw reflex producing a handgun deployment instead of a taser deployment.

[jimmyhat]

For a long time the only authorized weapons for Campus Security here was your ASP and your Pepper Foam.

How many of you security guards are armed? How did it feel if you were around for a switch from unarmed to armed (or switching from a unarmed job to an armed job). Also, the Tazer, useful or never used?
thanks
It does my heart good to know that a security department has recognized the threat, developed a plan to eliminate or reduce the threat, and begun to implement procedures to support the plan. That's what you call common sense in action.

knotquiteawake, you may have noticed, or will notice that many of us in these forums are Armed Only (that is, we refuse to work unarmed) and we take that duty seriously with training, sharing tactics, and passing on lessons learned. It may be valid to admit there is a definite dividing line between unarmed types, and us gun-nuts. Be that is it may, we're all here to protect others.

Your immersion into Armed work should start with basic firearms safety, basic firearms tactics, and then as you progress, advanced firearms tactics. Programs like NRA fist-steps is a good place to start.

Do not solely rely on your employer to train and equip you adequately. Most of the time, S/O's are looking into their own pockets in order to get the best training. If training is one component of your own survival, why not spend a few bucks?

The duty weapon you've mentioned, Beretta 9 mm, has many points of argument for and against (I carried one for five years, I could tell you some stories.) No matter what your opinion of that weapon is: learn it, love it, live it. Make the weapon as familiar to you as your own thumb.

Safety, Training, and your self-evaluation of your own ability to move towards danger instead of against it. Welcome to the west!

[knotquiteawake]

It does my heart good to know that a security department has recognized the threat, developed a plan to eliminate or reduce the threat, and begun to implement procedures to support the plan. That's what you call common sense in action.

Do not solely rely on your employer to train and equip you adequately. Most of the time, S/O's are looking into their own pockets in order to get the best training. If training is one component of your own survival, why not spend a few bucks?

The duty weapon you've mentioned, Beretta 9 mm, has many points of argument for and against (I carried one for five years, I could tell you some stories.) No matter what your opinion of that weapon is: learn it, love it, live it. Make the weapon as familiar to you as your own thumb.


Thanks! I've been friends and lived in the same house as two of the current officers, we all are of the same mind to practice and train outside of the department's scope of training as well.

As far as the 9mm Beretta, well, the only two guns i've ever handled was a glock (i think it was a .40) and a USP. So i don't know what a 9mm feels like, but i we keep joking about how "there's no stopping power in a 9mm." Sure its still a gun and kills people, but i don't want to have to empty a clip to stop someone.

My friends and i were considering purchasing our own guns, regardless of the departments policy on carrying a personal firearm while on duty, although it would be nice to carry something bigger while on duty its not a huge deal because i don't expect to have to fire my gun often or ever.


Which brings me to another question:
It looks like that once armed the department policy is going to be very tight on the firearms (don't know about the tazer). Basically if the gun leaves the holster there will be lots of paperwork and an inquiry by the supervisors.
You who are armed, is it like that for you? Where do the mountains of paperwork start when you are on duty (drawing the gun? pointing the gun? of course firing the gun).

[Lawson]

I would definately be ready for a lot of paperwork. You may end up needing to justify anything and everything you have done. Why did you draw your gun? Did you see them as a threat? What was so threatening about them? Was there any other, lesser force, methods you could have used? Had you exhausted EVERY other idea possible? What would have likely happened if you hadn't drawn your gun? What made you think that drawing your weapon would decrease the threat? How would you have handled the situation without a gun?

These are only a few of a plethora of questions that may come across your desk at only the slight tug of your firearm from its holster. Remember this, if you drew a gun on me... it doesnt matter if I was smashing out car windows and killing the babies inside. We're going to court and I am going to have the best lawyer I can afford, whose soul purpose in life is to make peace,police,and security officers look like retards in a courtroom, no matter how justified they were.

[N. A. Corbier]

W.L is right, that weapon does not have to leave it's holster in order for someone to feel threatened enough to cry "brandishing."

A lot of S/O's have the habit of resting their gun hand in close proximity to their weapon (I'm not going to argue for or against that tactic at this time.) So, be prepared for the paperwork and court date if you even go near that peace-maker with your grubby-lil'-mitts.

Early in your training, knotquiteawake, you'll hear a lot about never pulling your weapon unless you intend to destroy the target in front of you. I know the lesson well, and I certainly agree with that philosophy on it's merit. However, with thirteen years in the business I can tell you there are very few suspicious vehicles I approach, after sunset, with my hands in my pockets. Your survival instincts, tolerance for paperwork, and ability to accurately justify your actions in court will come with time and practice.

From your original question, yes there is much paperwork and justification to be done. That is a good thing. It helps keep the dummy's out of the game. Not all of em' but certainly some. One less dummy with a gun is one more safer citizen.

I remember that training, JimmyHat. And I remember the second the first shotgun blast went off outside the office I was standing in, it went out the window and my weapon was magically traversing firing arcs on the way out the front door - since the front door of the office was a choke/ambush point.

As long as you can justify and articulate why your doing what your doing, and its legally defensible, your good. But till your to that point, always err on the side of caution till your safety is genuinely threatened.

I've heard cops say stuff about learning the "right" amount of force. Since they do the liablity-important / people-friendly training now days, a lot of cops wonder "what's a good amount of force?"

ASP against a baseball bat comes to mind.

[histfan71]

Whose decision was it to carry 9mm? The university or the chief?

[histfan71]

My friends and i were considering purchasing our own guns, regardless of the departments policy on carrying a personal firearm while on duty, although it would be nice to carry something bigger while on duty its not a huge deal because i don't expect to have to fire my gun often or ever.

You have to obey your department's policy. If the department will only allow you to carry a university-issued gun on duty then you must comply.

I have a friend who works for the Veteran's Affairs Police and their issued guns are Beretta 92-F's. They also have a policy that only issued guns can be carried on duty, but the officers can carry whatever they want off-duty.

My friend carries a .45 ACP off-duty as well as to and from work. When he arrives at work he must store his off-duty gun in the armory.

[Lawson]

I hate VA Police's gun policy. I was talking to one of them, and he was telling me that they cannot take their guns home, they cannot be in possession of their personal firearm when in uniform (so no backup gun), if they carry their own gun to and from work, they must report directly to the locker-room on the way in and directly off the campus when off duty. No stopping even to assist in LE/Security duties. Things definately need to change with that agency IMO.

[Tennsix]

I would rather be tried by 12 than carried by six. :cool:

[histfan71]

I hate VA Police's gun policy. I was talking to one of them, and he was telling me that they cannot take their guns home, they cannot be in possession of their personal firearm when in uniform (so no backup gun), if they carry their own gun to and from work, they must report directly to the locker-room on the way in and directly off the campus when off duty. No stopping even to assist in LE/Security duties. Things definately need to change with that agency IMO.

It's gotten a little bit better. My friend told me that prior to 9/11, at his hospital anyway, they had no off-duty status. They had to hand in their badges and credentials along with their guns at the end of their shift.

The chief's justification for this was that since his officers had no authority off-duty why would they need their badges and credentials when not at work?

After 9/11 all that changed. They got 24/7 peace officer status and they are covered under HR-218.

I also understand that the Federal Reserve Bank Police are in a similar boat. Each district has their own policies. Some districts give the FRB cops 24/7 status and off-duty carry and some do not. I do not know which districts do not, but I would love to find out, since I have an application in with them.

[knotquiteawake]

i'm pretty sure it was the Chief's decision for the 9mm. The reasoning i was lead to understand is that our clips would be interchangeable with LA County's (their standard issue is the beretta 9mm, but most carry their own personal weapon).
So i guess he wanted it so we would both have the same clips... you know... like if the Sheriff and I get into a prolonged gun fight against a terrorist group. I could be all like "I'm OUT!!!" and the Sheriff would throw me another clip and be like "thats my last one, make it count." or something like that.... (i'm being sarcastic...)

[histfan71]

The reasoning i was lead to understand is that our clips would be interchangeable with LA County's (their standard issue is the beretta 9mm, but most carry their own personal weapon).

If most deputies carry their own personal gun having a Beretta will not do you any good.

LAPD is the same way. They still issue the Beretta 92-F but officers can privately purchase their own 9mm, .40 Cal, or .45 ACP. The vast majority of LAPD officers I still keep in touch with have bought Kimber .45's. The only real downside to carrying their own weapons is that the individual officer is required to purchase his own ammo, both for duty and for range qualifications. The last I knew LAPD would not allow any polymer-framed guns, so no Glocks or H&K USPs, but this requirement may have been lifted when Bratton took office.

[medic15al]

I refuse to work unarmed, and will not take an unarmed post. If it is an especially good post I will carry a concealed weapon on my AL CCW. It is allowed.

[knotquiteawake]

concealed weapons permits are nearly impossibly to attain in California.

[Will57]

Even though I know you need weapons, I am quite envious of your talk of batons, tasers and firearms.

In New Zealand only the police can carry a weapon of any sort in public, and the only weapons they usually carry are ASP batons and/or PR24s, and pepper spray. They have acess to Glock pistols and Bushmaster rifles, but don't carry them on patrol unless they need them. Tasers have recently been intorduced on trial.

Security officers in NZ are not permitted to carry any weapons at all, that means no batons, no spray, and definetely no firearms or tasers. We aren't even allowed to wear a bullet/stab proof vest which has always seemd strange to me, I can't see how a security guard would missuse or injure someone with a vest unless he took it off and beat someone with it.

We have no more powers here than any normal citizen in most cases, though in quite a few areas some security officers have municiple enforcement powers to deal with noise and animal control laws. However the security with those powers still have no authority to carry weapons, and allthough they deal with some offences that are arrestable they can't make an arrest. They have to ask a police officer to do it.

[HotelSecurity]

Even though I know you need weapons, I am quite envious of your talk of batons, tasers and firearms.

In New Zealand only the police can carry a weapon of any sort in public, and the only weapons they usually carry are ASP batons and/or PR24s, and pepper spray. They have acess to Glock pistols and Bushmaster rifles, but don't carry them on patrol unless they need them. Tasers have recently been intorduced on trial.

Security officers in NZ are not permitted to carry any weapons at all, that means no batons, no spray, and definetely no firearms or tasers. We aren't even allowed to wear a bullet/stab proof vest which has always seemd strange to me, I can't see how a security guard would missuse or injure someone with a vest unless he took it off and beat someone with it.

We have no more powers here than any normal citizen in most cases, though in quite a few areas some security officers have municiple enforcement powers to deal with noise and animal control laws. However the security with those powers still have no authority to carry weapons, and allthough they deal with some offences that are arrestable they can't make an arrest. They have to ask a police officer to do it.

I imagine New Zealand law comes from British law like Canada's does. In Canada there are extra powers for the owner of a property & people authorized by the owner of the property. We can arrest without a warrant for ANY criminal offence we see being committed on or to our property. This is even more power than the police have. Does New Zealand not give extra powers of arrest to property owners?

[Will57]

Does New Zealand not give extra powers of arrest to property owners?

No! A New Zealand citizen has no special powers on or off their own property. We have citizen arrest powers, but these are restricted to actually witnessing an offence at night for which the maximum punishment is at least three years jail. That means basically theft of large amounts, car theft, robbery of a large amount. But oddly it doesn't include assaults or many other violent crimes unless they result in seriouis harm.

A property owner who uses force to protect his property, or who presents a weapon such as a knife or a gun at an offender on his property will himself be arrested and charged by the police.

A security guard who uses force to detain an offender, or who arrests someone who has committed a crime not defined under permitted citizen arrests regs will also be charged by police with assault/false arrest/deprivation of liberty. All of which can result in a jail term.

For most of us it's just not worth catching offenders, if they want to run off then too bad, smart guards will let them go. Of course there are plenty of keen guards who do jump in and grab hold of criminals, and get into quite violent confrontations with them. But these guys don't usually stay long on the job.

Here's an example of the weird way in which the laws work in NZ.

A security guard carrying cash into a bank was held up by an armed assailent. The robber made the mistake of shooting the guard with the pistol, which turned out to be an air pellet gun. Although slightly injured by the pellet which hit him in the face the guard grappled with the robber who tried to run off. In the struggle the guard wrestled the pellet gun from the robber, and bashed him over the back of the head with it as the robber turned to go.

The robber was convicted with attempted aggravated robbery, assault with intent to injure, and possesion of an offensive weapon in a public place.

The guard was convicted of assault casing actual bodily harm, becauseit was deemed that when he hit the robber in the head he was no longer in any danger as the robber had given up trying to rob him and was trying to flee the scene.

Next time give him the money and forget about it.

[Eric]

How many of you security guards are armed? How did it feel if you were around for a switch from unarmed to armed (or switching from a unarmed job to an armed job). Also, the Tazer, useful or never used?
thanks

I was an armed Guard in the early 80's, a different time for sure. Going to armed work, I remember feeling a bit more aware of my surroundings and even the words I used. Trying to be professional, not a Police man was the goal.

[HotelSecurity]

I was an armed Guard in the early 80's, a different time for sure. Going to armed work, I remember feeling a bit more aware of my surroundings and even the words I used. Trying to be professional, not a Police man was the goal.

An armed guard in Ontario :eek: Were you working armoured car?

[sever104]

i will be ordering soon...

[N. A. Corbier]

i will be ordering soon...

You had best read up on Florida Statute and your insurance policy if you want to arm your employees with anything more than a trouser belt. :)

[Andy Taylor]

concealed weapons permits are nearly impossibly to attain in California.

Not quite true. It all depends on what county you live in. I agree LA county is about the worst, second only to SF county. But counties like Placer, Shasta, Orange, among others pretty much issue to anyone who is not a prohibited possessor and completes the required training, although it is still "Discretionary Issue".

www.packing.org

[Mr. Security]

You had best read up on Florida Statute and your insurance policy if you want to arm your employees with anything more than a trouser belt. :)

Yeah, LOL. :D That's akin to telling a life insurance underwriter that you have a history of diabetes. :eek: $$$$$$$$$$

[Special Investigator]

I'm authorized, and certified to carry:

Semi-auto pistol
AR15 M4 carbine (any rifle)
Shotgun
Revolver
16" expanding baton
Pepper spray

[EMTGuard]

Heck, I have to disarm to goto work. Off duty I'm loaded down. I am on vacation, just had dinner with my father and was carrying a (leegally) concealed .380 pistol on one hip and a 2oz bottle of Freeze +P CS/OC spray in an Uncle Mikes nylon carrier on my other hip. Not to mention the folding knife with the 5 inch serrated blade in my pocket. I feel practically naked at work.

[alowe56]

The post I work is a nice, quiet plastics factory. No real need for anything. Not really. All we really do is greet workers, truck drivers and visitors at the gate, pass out safety glasses and hearing protection, occasionally go into the plant to pick up paperwork to be scanned, and that's about it.

Rather mundane, all in all.

[HotelSecurity]

Heck, I have to disarm to goto work. Off duty I'm loaded down. I am on vacation, just had dinner with my father and was carrying a (leegally) concealed .380 pistol on one hip and a 2oz bottle of Freeze +P CS/OC spray in an Uncle Mikes nylon carrier on my other hip. Not to mention the folding knife with the 5 inch serrated blade in my pocket. I feel practically naked at work.

Freindly place :p

[FireEMSPolice]

Our company has a weapons free policy :rolleyes: They figure things dont happen often enough to equip us with anything. Sorry, I dont believe in having a defenseless Security Officer.

Recently, someone downtown at corporate suggested we demo a Tiger Truck (http://www.tigertruck.com/gas/starx/index.html) to save fuel. That thing is an accident waiting to happen. When told about the possibility that someone could get really hurt or killed if ever in an accident in that, that someone said, "how often does that happen?" That Tiger Truck is cheap. Run fast and far from it.

[N. A. Corbier]

Someone at Corporate should look at the GM GEM platform, which are electric cars which actually seem to work well. I dislike those mini trucks, drove one at a USCG base. Any Coasties here know exactly what I mean, they were called carts.

Most "weapons free" policies are just there to minimize liability, lower insurance rates, and save cost by not having to train you on the weapons authorized to carried.

[FireEMSPolice]

Someone at Corporate should look at the GM GEM platform, which are electric cars which actually seem to work well. I dislike those mini trucks, drove one at a USCG base. Any Coasties here know exactly what I mean, they were called carts.

Most "weapons free" policies are just there to minimize liability, lower insurance rates, and save cost by not having to train you on the weapons authorized to carried.Electric cars wouldnt do well for us. We need gas powered patrol vehicles but the Tiger sucks.

[Protective_Services]

i'm pretty sure it was the Chief's decision for the 9mm. The reasoning i was lead to understand is that our clips would be interchangeable with LA County's (their standard issue is the beretta 9mm, but most carry their own personal weapon).
So i guess he wanted it so we would both have the same clips... you know... like if the Sheriff and I get into a prolonged gun fight against a terrorist group. I could be all like "I'm OUT!!!" and the Sheriff would throw me another clip and be like "thats my last one, make it count." or something like that.... (i'm being sarcastic...)


I recommend learning more about your weapon before carrying. Your beretta does not use a clip. Here is an easy explanation. :D

http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/clip.html

[davis002]

I recommend learning more about your weapon before carrying. Your beretta does not use a clip. Here is an easy explanation. :D

http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/clip.html

That is a pet peeve of mine too. Same could be said of bullets. A "bullet" is just one part of the cartridge. Not to mention when everyone refers to every collapsible baton as an "ASP". An "ASP" is a brand, and not a generic name for all collapsible batons.

[iwicgsr]

I think Mr. Security makes a very good point. There are very obvious moral
issues to be considered at this time for you. In addition, there are legal and
civil issues to consider, unlike a licensed peace officer you have no limited
immunity. However, on this last point, totality of circumstances come greatly
into play. Also depending on totality of circumstances, a properly trained
security guard may get a little more wiggle room than an armed citizen.

No lawyer, cop or judge would ever admit that. Having said that, there are
times and accounts where there is no substitute for a gun. On the near north
side of my city and other areas, the gang bangers, and hip-hop thugs, and ex
cons respect nothing else. I have worked as an armored car guard for years
and now in armed security. I gotten use to the gun and don't think about
it much anymore. BTW, if you go armed, see if you can carry a .40 instead of
a 9mm. I enjoy that tactical side of security but, thats me.

Again it comes down to your decision and who you are. There are many rewarding and low risk posts, accounts, and technical aspects of the security
business that require no gun.

Best of luck whatever you decide.:)

[The Lord of the Keys]

From what I've been told after the Peace Officer trainer we will be issues .45 glocks.

[SecTrainer]

From what I've been told after the Peace Officer trainer we will be issues .45 glocks.

For hospital security? I'd recommend some rethinking on that one.

[Bill Warnock]

For hospital security? I'd recommend some rethinking on that one.
Firearms in a hospital setting is like mixing a lighted match with kerosene.
Enjoy the day,
Bill

[medic15al]

For those who think unarmed security is safer as far as liability, Think of the emotional, ethical and civil liability when an unarmed guard is killed or greiviouly injured while performing duties. In this area, most guards who are unarmed have most all agreed to have spouses and/or other family members to agressively and unrelentingly pursue civil suits against the company, individual managers, and the post owners as well. If a company is more worried about liability than their employees, then drastic action is needed to change it. Not to mention criminal negligence as well. Such a case was successful here in Birmingham a number of years ago. It forced the closing of the security company, the buisiness that was the post, and the security company owner served time for criminal negligence by ignoring the safety of his employees.

[craig333]

I work in a medical building, even has a third floor walkway to the hospital across the street. I can't even carry a flashlight let alone cw or a baton. I wonder if the doctors and nurses know if something happens all I can do is yell at the perp and call the police.

[Andy Taylor]

For hospital security? I'd recommend some rethinking on that one.


Is your objection to Glocks, .45 caliber, or firearms in general for this type of post?

[SecTrainer]

Is your objection to Glocks, .45 caliber, or firearms in general for this type of post?

No, there are definitely some hospital venues (inner city, especially) where at least some officers should probably be armed and I have no objection to Glocks.

I think that .45 caliber, however, is probably inappropriate for any hospital venue. Without getting into all the usual hoo-ha about "stopping power", etc., I'd be very uncomfortable issuing anything more than 9-mm, and I'd be very careful about the round I selected for officers to carry as well, choosing one that wasn't too "hot". The risk associated with missed shots is simply too great to ignore in a setting like a hospital and, IMHO, outweighs some other considerations that might be more relevant for other venues and for street cops.

In short, I'd give up some "stopping power" for less chance of missed shots that go through walls, etc. and even for some slightly increased chance that an individual struck unintentionally would survive their injury (despite the fact that this would also apply to a perp, obviously). After all, the 9-mm is hardly a popgun and is still carried by police forces around the world, so it's not like you'd be using an ineffective weapon.

Please note, dear reader, that this is simply my opinion and the approach that I would take. There are zillions of studies on topics such as this, all of them "proving" something different, so you might legitimately see this question very differently.

[medic15al]

The .45 ACP round is less likely to overpenetrate or riccochet than a 9mm round. Slower and larger bullet vs. a small faster bullet.

[OccamsRazor]

The .45 ACP round is less likely to overpenetrate or riccochet than a 9mm round. Slower and larger bullet vs. a small faster bullet.

Much the same way we're taught a .22 will easily penetrate your vest over a.40 any day. A friend's coworker was recently shot through his vest with a .25 and died at the scene.

[SecTrainer]

The .45 ACP round is less likely to overpenetrate or riccochet than a 9mm round. Slower and larger bullet vs. a small faster bullet.

The problem is, it's impossible to support broad statements like this, or about small rounds penetrating vests, etc. For one thing, you have to specify what kinds of walls you're talking about, and you have to be very specific about which loads you're talking about. There are building materials that are velocity-susceptible and others that require momentum to penetrate. Momentum is a rough expression of terminal kinetic energy. The .45 typically travels at about 75% of the speed of the 9-mm, but it also has nearly twice the mass.

I certainly was not suggesting that the 9-mm cannot penetrate walls. But, I can put the point to you in this way: If you had to knock a hole in a wall with a single blow, would you reach for your carpenter's hammer...or your sledge hammer? Which one is slower? Which one is heavier? I'm sure you answered "sledge hammer" to all three questions. If you said "carpenter's hammer", I don't want you on my remodeling crew because we'll never get anything done! :)

Certainly, either round can punch a hole in sheetrock walls, but that isn't the end of the issue. Buildings aren't just made of sheetrock. I can tell you from personal tests that the .45 penetrated panels of medium-to-heavy gauge sheet metal (about twice the thickness of car door panels) and 1" plywood at 50 yards which the 9-mm did not penetrate.

However, since it is certainly true that 9-mm will penetrate some types of walls, I'm not sure I wouldn't even go one step further in a hospital setting and require frangibles like Glasers despite their extra expense (using standard target loads, of course, for training and range practice). Hopefully, officers wouldn't find themselves firing caseloads of the frangibles on the job, so the cost differential would be limited. I'd take a little extra expense compared to the costs of unintended injuries.

One other point: If I ever ended up in court, I'd prefer to defend the choice of using a low-heat 9-mm (and even more so, a frangible) round over a .45 in a hospital any day of the week.

[craig333]

Which one is more likely to penetrate and exit a human being? In a crowded emergency room are you going to be more concerned with walls or people?

[Hospital Security Dude]

I would love to have our hospital go armed and from what I have been hearing some are thinking just that. I would probably go with a Springfield XD in 9mm with Winchester Ranger ammo, it's an LEO round but I can still get it from my source (legal). The holding area for our mental patiences should have a taser for it's officer. Right now all our officers can carry is a radio. I carry gloves and a surefire G2 in addition to the radio. All our officers must either ex- military or current or ex-security with min or 3 years eperience.

[N. A. Corbier]

The Winchester Ranger brand is not a "LEO" round, Winchester simply requests that its distributors not sell it to the general public. :) The only true restriction is BATF Armor Piercing rounds, and Destructive Devices.

[Hospital Security Dude]

The Winchester Ranger brand is not a "LEO" round, Winchester simply requests that its distributors not sell it to the general public. :) The only true restriction is BATF Armor Piercing rounds, and Destructive Devices.


Thats what I meant...lol:D

[N. A. Corbier]

Thats what I meant...lol:D

I have just always hated that people think that bullets and cartridges can be "outlawed, except if you're the police." The only way that can happen is if it meets the criteria of a controlled round by BATF standards. Black Talons aren't armor piercing the way that AP rounds are. They just happen to shred armor and carrier, if they're going fast enough. Doesn't meet the criteria, but Winchester knew if they didn't use a distribution restriction "request," they'd be sued.

[SecTrainer]

Which one is more likely to penetrate and exit a human being? In a crowded emergency room are you going to be more concerned with walls or people?

You have to be concerned with both, and I'd worry least in both cases with a low-heat 9mm round or frangible.

[Andy Taylor]

In my experience 9mm is more likely to penetrate than .45. Of course there are so many variables that a blanket statement is impossible to make. I do have a concearn about frangibles, or any other ammo, if enough of them are not fired through the weapon used, not just same model, to insure that the gun in question will cycle properly with the ammo used.

[SecTrainer]

In my experience 9mm is more likely to penetrate than .45. Of course there are so many variables that a blanket statement is impossible to make. I do have a concearn about frangibles, or any other ammo, if enough of them are not fired through the weapon used, not just same model, to insure that the gun in question will cycle properly with the ammo used.

I guess that's what makes for horse races. :)

[JSam21]

I'm envous of you guys who get the auto pistols and the tasers. We only get to carry .38 revolvers and ASP batons. No OC or anything like that working at the hospital.

[N. A. Corbier]

Are you in Florida, or are you working for Securitas or Wackenhut? :)

[JSam21]

Nope working in house security at a major hospital in St. Louis, Mo. St. Louis City and County only allow security officers to carry .38 revolvers and we are also only allowed to carry 2 speed loaders or strips for a grand total of 18 rounds.

[N. A. Corbier]

Aren't you a "de facto" police officer like your KCMO brethren?

[JSam21]

We have all the same powers of arrest while on property, on duty, and in uniform. But the city requires all armed security officers to carry only .38 revolvers. The joys of this are evident when we deal with the bangers coming up to see one of their shot running buddies. 20 of them most likely with guns in their car vs. 10 of us, 6 or 7 being armed. We are completly out gunned if that situation were to ever arise. Its not a good feeling.

[Andy Taylor]

The nice thing about a revolver is if they are taken care of, they don't jam. I have carried a revolver and never felt undergunned. The key is practice and shot placement. If you can't hit your target with the gun you have nothing else matters. Chances are those gangbangers are not marksmen. You should take the time to become one.

[Bill Warnock]

The nice thing about a revolver is if they are taken care of, they don't jam. I have carried a revolver and never felt undergunned. The key is practice and shot placement. If you can't hit your target with the gun you have nothing else matters. Chances are those gangbangers are not marksmen. You should take the time to become one.
Andy, again right on target. I carried a couple of wheel guns, "J" Frame Colt .357 and S&W Model 65-2 .357. Sight Alignment, Breath Control and Trigger Squeeze are the three elements my dad taught me at the age of six.
You must continue to practice everytime you have an opportunity. When I can't go to the range, there is the CO2 air pistol. It is a lot cheaper and with ammunition in very short supply and very expensive, that allows practice. A lead weight on the wrist makes up for the weight difference.
In the military services, you maintain a "dope book" that is used to record each and every shot you take. Get one from any military surplus store or make your own.
You can simulate shooting from a barricade, strong hand weak hand, combat crouch, Weaver or modified Weaver. The emphasis is training, training and more training. Cardinal rule, don't point a weapon at anything you don't intend to shoot!
If you can't handle the handgun you are issued or you own, take up needle point like the former NFL Roosevelt Greer.
Enjoy the day,
Bill

[JSam21]

Its becoming quite obvious that the bangers must have spent the winter at the range working on their marksmanship. They aren't quite missing as much as last year... :rolleyes:

[Andy Taylor]

Its becoming quite obvious that the bangers must have spent the winter at the range working on their marksmanship. They aren't quite missing as much as last year... :rolleyes:


As long as they are only shooting each other.

It makes our point about about becoming good with the gun you have even more important.

[JSam21]

At each other... at the police... lucky not at us yet. Our new mandate from the brass has the department handing out Level 3 holsters to all armed officers. At the begining of the year we had an officer get his weapon ripped from his holster, litteraly, by a psych patient. His holster came apart at the stiching and was held at gun point for a few minutes until the patient decided to pistol whip him instead of venting his body. I, an unarmed officer had the privlige of sitting on him in the psych ward to protect him.

[Andy Taylor]

At each other... at the police... lucky not at us yet. Our new mandate from the brass has the department handing out Level 3 holsters to all armed officers. At the begining of the year we had an officer get his weapon ripped from his holster, litteraly, by a psych patient. His holster came apart at the stiching and was held at gun point for a few minutes until the patient decided to pistol whip him instead of venting his body. I, an unarmed officer had the privlige of sitting on him in the psych ward to protect him.

Sounds like a fun place to work.:rolleyes:

I hope they practice with those level 3's. Honestly I wouldn't want to work armed that close to mental patients without a good level 3 holster. But practice is very important. It does no good to have the gun if you can't get it out of the holster.

[JSam21]

Thats what I said andy. Most of our armed guards are people that have been with the department a long time and they were all used to their holsters. Now the brass just throws us these holsters and tells everyone to have them on the next night. No time to train with them. Wear them and wear them now.

My new favorite thing is that the Hospital VP is wanting us to change our uniform. Right now we wear a french blue shirt and navy pant police style uniform with a silver badge. They are looking to move us to a button up "business casual" type shirt with no badge and navy pants. Here is the kicker... they still want us to wear leather duty gear with it. They want us to seem less intimidating and more approachable to guests. I hate this idea because I work nights, and for all of my night owls you know, we need every advantage we can get at this hospital. Its a level 1 trauma center in the middle of a fairly large urban area... Some study has us as the most dangerous city in America last
year.

Edit... The uniform change talk has died down A LOT after the VA Tech incident

[Andy Taylor]

Federal Protective Service used to wear (maybe still does?) a get up like that. A full duty belt just looks tacky with a blazer. A class A uniform with a tie and a nice hat (ie:no ball caps) would have the desired effect with Joe Public and not look silly to the bangers. Just a thought.

[Hospital Security Dude]

Don't feel undergunned carrying a revolver. When I worked armed security years ago I carried a S&W M10, 4inch with a round butt conversion, polished trigger, and standard weight trigger spring (I actually shot better with a heavy trigger) in a safariland SS3 Holster and according to the range instructor I was as fast and as accurate as my co-shooters on the range firing semi-autos from a non security holster. The only problem I had was at the time (in FL)we were only allowed to carry lead round nose:mad: but I had +P+ HP in my speedloaders. I carried 4 speedloaders and a 2x2x2 pouch for tactical reloads, 36 rounds total.

[JSam21]

We carry HPs but we are... by law and policy only allowed to carry 18 rounds total. Thats my point of contention. I would rather be allowed to carry an semi-auto and be able to have 40-50 rounds at my disposal. I know many guys will say, "If you can't get them with 18 then you aren't going to get them!" I respond to that with a question. How long will 18 rounds last you in a gun fight? Faces kinda change after I ask that.

The other one I get is, "You will never have to even pull your weapon more than likely let alone fire it at someone." But what if I do have to. I'd would rather have as much ammo as I can. Just my $.02

[Curtis Baillie]

We carry HPs but we are... by law and policy only allowed to carry 18 rounds total. Thats my point of contention. I would rather be allowed to carry an semi-auto and be able to have 40-50 rounds at my disposal. I know many guys will say, "If you can't get them with 18 then you aren't going to get them!" I respond to that with a question. How long will 18 rounds last you in a gun fight? Faces kinda change after I ask that.

The other one I get is, "You will never have to even pull your weapon more than likely let alone fire it at someone." But what if I do have to. I'd would rather have as much ammo as I can. Just my $.02I support your position. You cannot carry enough ammunition. This theory served me well in LE and Vietnam.

[JSam21]

Another statement I get is, "Well the police will get there quick if we call for shots fired." This isn't a shot at my boys in our district. We had a news crew beat the police to a TC right in front of our hospital. STLPD has a whole lot of things going on. It might take them a bit to get there but when we need them they bring the house.

I'm not going to take 18 shots and then wait to catch one point blank in the head.

[JSam21]

Federal Protective Service used to wear (maybe still does?) a get up like that. A full duty belt just looks tacky with a blazer. A class A uniform with a tie and a nice hat (ie:no ball caps) would have the desired effect with Joe Public and not look silly to the bangers. Just a thought.

We wear class A uniforms. We wear ties with our long sleeve shirts and white t-shirts with our short sleeved ones. We don't have nice hats to wear so I wear a baseball style one. (Rather not have to redo my hair after wrestling with a patient)

This is the syle of shirt they are looking to put us in.

http://galls.com/jpegs/130553.jpg

With no badge, no arm patch, just Public Safety Officer, on the left chest, with navy pants and a full duty belt.

[Bill Warnock]

I support your position. You cannot carry enough ammunition. This theory served me well in LE and Vietnam.
Curtis, I carried a total of 18 rounds one day supply and 18 rounds as one day resupply both in the Military, LE and in Private Security for a total of 36 rounds. Nobody said boo! When I left the military I purchased speed loaders, five in all.
My only complaint in private security was a lack of standard weaponry. I have that as one of the questions on my security survey guide when on private security surveys/inspections. If guard A has a .45, guard B has a .40 and guard C has a .38, if one runs short, where does the extra ammunition come from? "Well they will never need any more than they have, just doesn't cut it!"
Despite the fact one dear old lady at Warner-Robbins AFB supply suggested if we put a little bit of oil on a .45 round it might well fit in the .38 because "as we all knew" the TO&E stated the .45 was a suitable substitute for the .38, they really don't fit in a cylinder or magazine. God love little old supply ladies.
Enjoy the day,
Bill

[SecTrainer]

We have all the same powers of arrest while on property, on duty, and in uniform. But the city requires all armed security officers to carry only .38 revolvers. The joys of this are evident when we deal with the bangers coming up to see one of their shot running buddies. 20 of them most likely with guns in their car vs. 10 of us, 6 or 7 being armed. We are completly out gunned if that situation were to ever arise. Its not a good feeling.

Hmmm...are you sure? Here, I'm quoting directly from the KC Board of Police Commissioners regs for security officers (specifically, 17 CSR 10-2.055 Firearms Regulation and Qualification) found at this link (http://sos.missouri.gov/adrules/csr/current/17csr/17c10-2.pdf):

"The firearms approved by board are as follows: .38 caliber, double or single action pistols or solid frame revolvers (five or six shot); .357 revolvers with .38 caliber ammunition; and semi-automatics, double action only or double/single action, which are equipped with a decocker or decocker safety. This requirement limits the semi-automatics which may be carried to .380, .40, .45, 9mm and 10mm calibers. Striker action firearms are acceptable. The department shooting range supervisor or his/her designee may deny a licensee the opportunity to qualify if, in their discretion, they believe a person or a firearm does not meet the requirements set out herein or presents a danger to others."

[Curtis Baillie]

Curtis, I carried a total of 18 rounds one day supply and 18 rounds as one day resupply both in the Military, LE and in Private Security for a total of 36 rounds. Nobody said boo! When I left the military I purchased speed loaders, five in all.
My only complaint in private security was a lack of standard weaponry. I have that as one of the questions on my security survey guide when on private security surveys/inspections. If guard A has a .45, guard B has a .40 and guard C has a .38, if one runs short, where does the extra ammunition come from? "Well they will never need any more than they have, just doesn't cut it!"
Despite the fact one dear old lady at Warner-Robbins AFB supply suggested if we put a little bit of oil on a .45 round it might well fit in the .38 because "as we all knew" the TO&E stated the .45 was a suitable substitute for the .38, they really don't fit in a cylinder or magazine. God love little old supply ladies.
Enjoy the day,
BillIn the military we carried the AR15 (newly issued) and they had 20 round magazines. When "in country" there were people in my squad who ran out of ammo as they chose to carry only a few extra magazines, due to the weight. Twice I became the go to person for extra rounds. Our unit was out in the field for 30 days at the time. We were choppered to a rear area to resupply once a month and get a shower. The enemy could smell us coming.:eek: When we needed emergency rations they were dropped by chopper.

[JSam21]

Hmmm...are you sure? Here, I'm quoting directly from the KC Board of Police Commissioners regs for security officers (specifically, 17 CSR 10-2.055 Firearms Regulation and Qualification) found at this link (http://sos.missouri.gov/adrules/csr/current/17csr/17c10-2.pdf):

"The firearms approved by board are as follows: .38 caliber, double or single action pistols or solid frame revolvers (five or six shot); .357 revolvers with .38 caliber ammunition; and semi-automatics, double action only or double/single action, which are equipped with a decocker or decocker safety. This requirement limits the semi-automatics which may be carried to .380, .40, .45, 9mm and 10mm calibers. Striker action firearms are acceptable. The department shooting range supervisor or his/her designee may deny a licensee the opportunity to qualify if, in their discretion, they believe a person or a firearm does not meet the requirements set out herein or presents a danger to others."


Yes but that is KC. The St. Louis City's Private Security Section states that only .38 Double Action Revolvers. I can't find the actual listing for it at the moment but trust me... we can't. The only people that can I believe are Sworn Police Officers working off duty.

Check that. Found it here http://www.sos.mo.gov/adrules/csr/current/17csr/17c20-2.pdf

Page 9 B under weapons

[Andy Taylor]

I just read that and don't see the rule about the number of rounds. I agree that some of that is unreasonable and dangerous. Like have to take off and unload your gun if you go to the bathroom.:rolleyes: The only ammo rule I see is factory loaded, new ammo.

[JSam21]

Correct. I was mistaken on that part. The 18 rounds in a hospital policy. They will only give you 18 rounds and if you are found with non-department issued rounds you will be fired.

[Investigation]

If guard A has a .45, guard B has a .40 and guard C has a .38, if one runs short, where does the extra ammunition come from?

If guard C runs short, I'm not going to give him/her any of my ammo. Obviously he/she is not doing very well at aiming and giving them additional ammo is placing both officers in jepardy.

[SgtUSMC8541]

If guard C runs short, I'm not going to give him/her any of my ammo. Obviously he/she is not doing very well at aiming and giving them additional ammo is placing both officers in jepardy.

What if you are guard A and guard B and C go down, now YOU are low or out of ammo. Would make more sence to be able to just grab a mag from them as oposed to having to start grabbing other firearms.

[Hospital Security Dude]

Correct. I was mistaken on that part. The 18 rounds in a hospital policy. They will only give you 18 rounds and if you are found with non-department issued rounds you will be fired.


Well Hell! There went my idea of you carrying a couple a safariland speed strips in your pocket:D

[SgtUSMC8541]

Correct. I was mistaken on that part. The 18 rounds in a hospital policy. They will only give you 18 rounds and if you are found with non-department issued rounds you will be fired.


Do they give you any extra so you can qual on the rounds you "have" to carry? Or rounds to put down range on a monthly basis?

yeah, yeah.... just kidding.:rolleyes:

[SecTrainer]

Yes but that is KC. The St. Louis City's Private Security Section states that only .38 Double Action Revolvers. I can't find the actual listing for it at the moment but trust me... we can't. The only people that can I believe are Sworn Police Officers working off duty.

Check that. Found it here http://www.sos.mo.gov/adrules/csr/current/17csr/17c20-2.pdf

Page 9 B under weapons

My apologies - I thought you were in KC.

[Lawson]

Honestly, in a handgun range firefight, you are statistically going to end the fight in less than I think it was 30 seconds. Tunnel vision is going to be such a high factor, your partner can be right next to you yelling into your ear and you may not hear a word until the shooting has stopped. The whole, "I'm out..." "This is my last clip, make it count!" stuff is in the movies, rarely the real world.

[SgtUSMC8541]

Honestly, in a handgun range firefight, you are statistically going to end the fight in less than I think it was 30 seconds. Tunnel vision is going to be such a high factor, your partner can be right next to you yelling into your ear and you may not hear a word until the shooting has stopped. The whole, "I'm out..." "This is my last clip, make it count!" stuff is in the movies, rarely the real world.


98% of the time you are right............. but it is better to have and not need, than need and not have right? With the threat of terrorist attack, possible armed instead of suicide bombers.... I would rather take that small extra precaution.

Even you state that it is "rarely the real world", that means sometimes it is.

[JSam21]

Do they give you any extra so you can qual on the rounds you "have" to carry? Or rounds to put down range on a monthly basis?

yeah, yeah.... just kidding.:rolleyes:

Actually the city provides us the Qual ammo. The hospital doesn't provide us any range ammo. Any and all range time, besides qual, is paid in full by the officer. Only mandated training time is qual.

[Lawson]

98% of the time you are right............. but it is better to have and not need, than need and not have right? With the threat of terrorist attack, possible armed instead of suicide bombers.... I would rather take that small extra precaution.

Even you state that it is "rarely the real world", that means sometimes it is.

So then lets say we have that other 2%... I'm carrying .45s someone else is carrying .40s and the other is carrying 9mms because that's what we want to carry. If you are so worried about an ensuing gunfight that could really go that bad at your facility, why not just mandate another mag? If your site is a percieved terrorist target, I would want officers carrying a weapon they are comfortable with and know they can put rounds on target rather than saying "This is the Glock 17, it's a 9mm and you all have to carry it so you can exchange ammo."

[JSam21]

We get around that rule by not clocking out for lunch. We can, and have been, called away from lunch to answer assistance calls.

[SgtUSMC8541]

So then lets say we have that other 2%... I'm carrying .45s someone else is carrying .40s and the other is carrying 9mms because that's what we want to carry. If you are so worried about an ensuing gunfight that could really go that bad at your facility, why not just mandate another mag? If your site is a percieved terrorist target, I would want officers carrying a weapon they are comfortable with and know they can put rounds on target rather than saying "This is the Glock 17, it's a 9mm and you all have to carry it so you can exchange ammo."

I see your point, and at my armed site, we did mandate another mag. One extra was the min and a third was "recomended".

Your point is very valid. I still feel that I would want a "uniform" caliber. Many companies are also required by ther insurance they have to have a certain caliber of pistol. Anyway, we did mandate a certain amount of training. Monthly training. It was covered by our client and on my staff we had 4 NRA instructors. This is not the norm, and I understand that.

Many of my staff were also prior LEO and all carried Glocks, so that did help.

[winchester4321]

It's gotten a little bit better. My friend told me that prior to 9/11, at his hospital anyway, they had no off-duty status. They had to hand in their badges and credentials along with their guns at the end of their shift.

The chief's justification for this was that since his officers had no authority off-duty why would they need their badges and credentials when not at work?

After 9/11 all that changed. They got 24/7 peace officer status and they are covered under HR-218.

I also understand that the Federal Reserve Bank Police are in a similar boat. Each district has their own policies. Some districts give the FRB cops 24/7 status and off-duty carry and some do not. I do not know which districts do not, but I would love to find out, since I have an application in with them.

VA Police do NOT have 24/7 'peace officer' authority. Their authority extends to VA property. Also HR218 may allow them to carry, but if they use it, the VA will NOT cover them. Remember this is the agency that won't even allow them to carry their issued duty weapon off-duty.

As for FRB, it is a 99.999999% security job. You will NOT be making ANY arrests or doing criminal investigations. Locals or federal agents will be doing all arrests/investigations. Some FRB's allow off-duty carry, but it is ONLY for personal protection. Try taking any action off-duty and you're on your own. Also your training is all in-house and you can't lateral to ANY federal LE positions. Some people may not be aware, that almost all FRB employees are NOT federal employees...

[Hank1]

While on duty, I possess a Sig Pro SP2009 (9mm), a colapsible ASP baton and water-based OC. To include 2 pairs of ASP cuffs. However, we are not authorized to use or carry tasers of any type. Rumors are that the possibility of tasers are in the future.

Be safe,

Hank

[N. A. Corbier]

You know, that's always been odd to me, Hank. One day, I got a bug and gathered everyone around the EDI office, and went, "We need tasers." After showing the ZOMG presentation, they were hooked.

I would of expected CIS to deploy tasers shortly after EDI started fielding them.

[GCMC Security]

While on duty, I possess a Sig Pro SP2009 (9mm), a colapsible ASP baton and water-based OC. To include 2 pairs of ASP cuffs. However, we are not authorized to use or carry tasers of any type. Rumors are that the possibility of tasers are in the future.

Be safe,

Hank

If I recall pretty much CIS requires you to purchase your own duty weapon. I was told that they will sign out a .38 to a new hire temporarily til they purchase thier own...something like for up to 6 months.

I also remember being told that Glock was NOT on the authorized list of manufacturers.

[Maelstrom]

While on duty, I possess a Sig Pro SP2009 (9mm), a colapsible ASP baton and water-based OC. To include 2 pairs of ASP cuffs.

Well you're well 'tooled up' for the job, generally only cash transit positions carry handguns down here though there are armed patrols/static in some states IIRC, mostly we're limited to a telescopic/solid baton (depending on company policy), water based dye sprays (like dyewitness) and finely tuned interpersonal skills...

Personally, I'm of the belief that such policies contraveen Federal Occupational Health & Safety regulations, do any US Security providers prevent their employees from carrying defensive equipment?

[OccamsRazor]

Personally, I'm of the belief that such policies contraveen Federal Occupational Health & Safety regulations, do any US Security providers prevent their employees from carrying defensive equipment?

A vast majority.

[Maelstrom]

A vast majority.

Does that stem from fear of litigation, or higher insurance premiums for the Security Company?

Additionally, as I'm not familiar with US laws regarding safety in the workplace (or Work Safe Practices), doesn't the employer have a 'duty of care' to the employee to do their utmost to ensure the employee's safety?

[N. A. Corbier]

Does that stem from fear of litigation, or higher insurance premiums for the Security Company?

Additionally, as I'm not familiar with US laws regarding safety in the workplace (or Work Safe Practices), doesn't the employer have a 'duty of care' to the employee to do their utmost to ensure the employee's safety?

Both.

The 'duty of care' is addressed by stating that security guards are there to provide visual deterrence only, and that guards are not to intervene in any situation. If deterrence has failed, they are to contact their supervisor or the police for instructions after leaving the area of the activity.

The majority of security personnel are not trained to do anything more than stand a static post, write entries into a log book in a (sometimes) specific format, and write reports using the five W method.

The method of addressing "duty fo care" is also compounded because OSHA does not consider "being killed by an attacker" an occupational hazard, so the companies do not have to provide personal protective equipment or training. The most a company has to provide is a cold weather coat, but only in the north where there's an occupational exposure to freezing weather that will kill a man without protection.

Companies that provide training, weapons, and other things expend more money (loss) than the vast majority of firms that choose to use untrained (or trained through a state licensing system, at the licensee's expense) watchmen, making it a niche market.

In a lot of cases, many guard service owners create and build their companies with the express purpose of getting them sold to G4S, Allied Barton, Initial, etc. That's the payoff - and from what I understand one of the largest reasons that the "business gurus" say to start a firm: Make it, build it, sell it. Repeat.

[Andy Taylor]

You got it. Fear of litigation and insurance premiums.

[N. A. Corbier]

I forgot to mention something, its more than that. Arming employees, or even having them engage in conflict, costs more money in training (obviously) than it does to have unarmed and untrained "reporters."

If you authorize weapons, and expect your employees to use them, and fail to train your employees on them... You can get hit with a "failure to train" lawsuit.

Same goes with "interventions" or "enforcement activity." Failure to train will generate lots of money from the suit the family or surviving guard brings against you.

So, unless you're in a niche part of the industry that specializes in protection, why would you bother rolling out a full blown defensive tactics + arrest tactics + weapons usage course that costs lots of money, and doesn't give any return whatsoever?

Note: I'm aware that there are positive returns, both monetarily and in employee safety, to actually training employees. But, lets face it, most of these companies see anything that you can't put on a contract as a surcharge as a negative. In an era where guard companies bill the client for reach radio that shows up on post... (Supervisor visited? Bill them three radios that night, one for the guard, one for the supervisor, one for the supervisor's data modem in the car...)

[craig333]

Real sad part is, at least in CA, many of us have the training, certs etc, already, but most of the companies would prefer we didn't.

[Maelstrom]

Sort of too qualified for the job then?

I didn't mean to stir up anyone I was just curious, as we're legally allowed (here) to carry a baton/handcuffs straight out of training, but if you use it without being accredited you also risk litigation...

Thanks for the clarification :)

[Andy Taylor]

Real sad part is, at least in CA, many of us have the training, certs etc, already, but most of the companies would prefer we didn't.


Ain't that the truth.

[N. A. Corbier]

Sort of too qualified for the job then?

I didn't mean to stir up anyone I was just curious, as we're legally allowed (here) to carry a baton/handcuffs straight out of training, but if you use it without being accredited you also risk litigation...

Thanks for the clarification :)

What if your employer tells you no?

That's basically what happens to many people with the proper certifications, they're told "Do not carry that, company policy, you are to observe, report, and not intervene."

[doulos Christou]

For a long time the only authorized weapons for Campus Security here was your ASP and your Pepper Foam.

The university I used to work at didn't allow squat. He couldn't get it through his head that we didn't only deal with students. How can I stop a drunk with a Mag-Lite? (I know how but that ain't legal)


However after two armed car jackings, over the course of about a month and a half, the Univeristy President gave the green light to Arm the Officers.

We have known gang members dealing on campus and doing initiations on our property. We also reside on the feeder of IH-35 (runs from Laredo, TX all the way to Canada.) Still no arms at all.


So now in the next three to four months or so we will be trained to use a gun and tazer.
Apparently we will be required to carry all of the following while on duty:
ASP
Pepper spray
Tazer
9mm Beretta
PLUS all the regular stuff (maglight, radio, cuffs, spare clips, ect..)

Sounds like you lucked out. Suggestions: use the 16-in. ASP monadnock baton (they are small, but they work the same) Carry an MK-II for the spray. It is sufficient for multiple targets, but small and lightweight. I do not prefer the tazer. There is a huge liability when you pop someone. Even the slightest heart condition can kill someone when hit with 50K. Also, replace your Mag-Lite with a Streamlight Stinger, or even a small LED light. You won't need the big light for protection (the main reason guards carry them) and an LED light can be more compact, but 10x brighter.


How many of you security guards are armed? How did it feel if you were around for a switch from unarmed to armed (or switching from a unarmed job to an armed job). Also, the Tazer, useful or never used?
thanks

I am armed, I have no problem switching between the two because I carry my .45 on a drop holster on the right thigh. It comes right off. I can carry my OC and ASP on any site, armed or not. I carry four clips, three sets of handcuffs (switching to Zip-Ties soon), My baton, 2 Stinger flashlights, Radio, Gerber tool, Cell phone, OC, .45, and my junk pouch (small pouch that usually carries a small first aid set-up in an old ak-47 dual mag pouch) It's all in how you carry. I pack alot of gear and am totally comfortable for a 12-18 hour patrol.

[N. A. Corbier]

Stop. Right now.

1. You've shown that you don't know your equipment. ASP and Monadnock are two different companies. The standard police size container of OC or Mace is MK-3 or MK-III, not MK-2. MK-IV is the larger can.

2. 16 inch batons are not suggested for uniformed carry by ASP. Monadnock won't even make a 16 inch telescoping baton.

3. Whatever liabilities there are on Tasers, 'Even the slightest heart condition can kill someone when hit with 50K.' is false on its face. Unless you are a certified user by Taser International, or a credentialed electrical engineer, just stop.

I'm getting tired of these things being posted on this forum. Its beginning to border on insanity.

[davis002]

I am armed, I have no problem switching between the two because I carry my .45 on a drop holster on the right thigh. It comes right off. I can carry my OC and ASP on any site, armed or not. I carry four clips, three sets of handcuffs (switching to Zip-Ties soon), My baton, 2 Stinger flashlights, Radio, Gerber tool, Cell phone, OC, .45, and my junk pouch (small pouch that usually carries a small first aid set-up in an old ak-47 dual mag pouch) It's all in how you carry. I pack alot of gear and am totally comfortable for a 12-18 hour patrol.

Why on earth do you need to carry 2 flashlights?

[doulos Christou]

I know what I'm talking about.


Stop. Right now.

No.


1. You've shown that you don't know your equipment. ASP and Monadnock are two different companies. The standard police size container of OC or Mace is MK-3 or MK-III, not MK-2. MK-IV is the larger can.

As far as the batons; the word "OR" got omitted, simple typo I would've corrected if I didn't have to go handle some paperwork. I have one of each.

OC: dms.myflorida.com/content/download/25659/121683 ...pay CLOSE attention to items 27,35,46,58,59,70,71, and 72. If they didn't make an MK-II, why would they sell one?? Facts, facts, facts...try them you might enjoy.

Who doesn't know their equipment? Just checking.


2. 16 inch batons are not suggested for uniformed carry by ASP. Monadnock won't even make a 16 inch telescoping baton.

Before you try and call someone out, take a look around. http://www.batons.com/autolock.aspx There it is. A 16-in Monadnock that they "don't make" Hmm....who needs to stop??


3. Whatever liabilities there are on Tasers, 'Even the slightest heart condition can kill someone when hit with 50K.' is false on its face. Unless you are a certified user by Taser International, or a credentialed electrical engineer, just stop.

Actually, I'm former EMS, what's your qualification to be running your trap? So far you have been completely wrong and proven wrong. Now just stop. Actually, there is a condition called tachycardia (either supraventricular or ventricular) and one of them ( I cannot recall at this time, it's been a while) all the same, it can cause almost certain death from shock. That's why we also couldn't use AED's (portable and automatic deifb's.) on these people when they were found to be in need. It is highly likely.



I'm getting tired of these things being posted on this forum. Its beginning to border on insanity.

Not sure how posting accurate facts is bordering on insanity. Maybe you could explain that. Anyway, I want to thank you for allowing me the privelege of proving you completely wrong. Thanks for playing. Have a nice day. Don't make the mistake of insulting my knowledge of my job again it just makes you look silly and, as a moderator, you should know better.

[doulos Christou]

Why on earth do you need to carry 2 flashlights?

Haha, I'm kind of rough on them. They don't last very long and I keep them on for almost my entire shift. I don't exactly have time to wait on them to charge. Plus, I occassionally work with the rocket-scientist that doesn't bring one for a night shift. I keep about 4 or 5 in the cruiser just in case I need them. No real good reason I guess, just always do.

[craig333]

Sort of too qualified for the job then?

I didn't mean to stir up anyone I was just curious, as we're legally allowed (here) to carry a baton/handcuffs straight out of training, but if you use it without being accredited you also risk litigation...

Thanks for the clarification :)

Well, yes.
Been specifically told I can't carry handcuffs, baton or oc. Flashlight too, but I carry a small one, I figure if its too small to be used as a weapon they won't say anything.

Maybe when I ready to get fired I'll wear the duty belt with all the gear to work. Well probably not, don't want to give anyone a heart attack.

[The Hussard]

Haha, I'm kind of rough on them. They don't last very long and I keep them on for almost my entire shift. I don't exactly have time to wait on them to charge. Plus, I occassionally work with the
rocket-scientist that doesn't bring one for a night shift. I keep about 4 or 5 in the cruiser just in case I need them. No real good reason I guess, just always do.

Do you working for the NASA

[doulos Christou]

Do you working for the NASA

Please tell me you are joking...

[winchester4321]

I am armed, I have no problem switching between the two because I carry my .45 on a drop holster on the right thigh. It comes right off. I can carry my OC and ASP on any site, armed or not. I carry four clips, three sets of handcuffs (switching to Zip-Ties soon), My baton, 2 Stinger flashlights, Radio, Gerber tool, Cell phone, OC, .45, and my junk pouch (small pouch that usually carries a small first aid set-up in an old ak-47 dual mag pouch) It's all in how you carry. I pack alot of gear and am totally comfortable for a 12-18 hour patrol.


A campus allows its security guards to wear drop holsters???? Not many campuses even allow their police officers to wear drop holsters for regular patrol use. Saying the words security guard, campus, and drop holster, in the same sentence is almost unheard of. It sounds like you are armed to the teeth with so much equipment that your belt would be completely filled up with little room left for even a keeper.

This almost sounds like a police buff or a fantasy of someone who is neither in LE or security....

[bigshotceo]

remember that while carrying a lot of stuff can prevent injury by always having the right equipment, in the long run it's setting you up for chronic back pain....

[doulos Christou]

A campus allows its security guards to wear drop holsters???? Not many campuses even allow their police officers to wear drop holsters for regular patrol use. Saying the words security guard, campus, and drop holster, in the same sentence is almost unheard of. It sounds like you are armed to the teeth with so much equipment that your belt would be completely filled up with little room left for even a keeper.


I said "used to" I don't work for the school anymore, hence the ability to do it now. Also, what do you base the information about not being allowed to carry a drop holster on? I base my knowledge on the fact that about 50% of our guards, including a handful of supervisors prefer and carry drops. Actually, I don't carry any more equipment than my job requires or allows. The extra mags may be a little more than needed, and I don't always carry all four, but I can't stop the Boy Scout in me "Always Be Prepared." With the exception of the extra mags, I have used everything on my belt more than once. From Oc'ing a crowd to loaning out my spare flashlight to a partner who broke his at work, to using the Gerber tool to Jerry-Rig a broken gate latch to keep it closed. I wouldn't carry it if I didn't feel the need.




This almost sounds like a police buff or a fantasy of someone who is neither in LE or security...

This almost sounds like another person who has no clue who or what they are talking about...As mentioned above, I wouldn't carry it if I didn't use it.

[doulos Christou]

remember that while carrying a lot of stuff can prevent injury by always having the right equipment, in the long run it's setting you up for chronic back pain...

I suppose, but it doesn't seem like my gear weighs all that much. Plus, companies like Blackhawk or 5.11 offer some pretty nice ways to pack so as to relieve stress on your back. I also wear the 5.11 compression shirt specifically designed for reducing strain on the lower back. See: http://www.511tactical.com/index.asp?dlrID=511&dept=_NEW&number=40001
I really like this thing. A little expensive, but it works well so far.

[winchester4321]

I am armed, I have no problem switching between the two because I carry my .45 on a drop holster on the right thigh. It comes right off. I can carry my OC and ASP on any site, armed or not. I carry four clips, three sets of handcuffs (switching to Zip-Ties soon), My baton, 2 Stinger flashlights, Radio, Gerber tool, Cell phone, OC, .45, and my junk pouch (small pouch that usually carries a small first aid set-up in an old ak-47 dual mag pouch) It's all in how you carry. I pack alot of gear and am totally comfortable for a 12-18 hour patrol.

I would be very interested in seeing a picture of your duty belt with all the stuff. I don't know ANY security guard who carries all that stuff. Three sets of cuffs for a security guard? Two flashlights? A police officer yes, but even then I don't know any that would carry two of the same flashlight. With all that equipment it is just over the top....

[doulos Christou]

I would be very interested in seeing a picture of your duty belt with all the stuff. I don't know ANY security guard who carries all that stuff. Three sets of cuffs for a security guard? Two flashlights? A police officer yes, but even then I don't know any that would carry two of the same flashlight. With all that equipment it is just over the top....

As I have stated: I HAVE USED EVERYTHING I CARRY!! (excepting the extra mags) On ocassion, I work with trainees and they forget eqpt. Especially handcuffs and lights, so I carry an extra of each in case they are improperly equipped when they show up on site. Check yourself before pretending like you know it all. If you had asked, I would have told.

[OccamsRazor]

Why on earth do you need to carry 2 flashlights?

Hey, I carry two as well....One Surefire on my belt, and one Streamlight (XL20?) that charges in the car on the way to work, and stays in my bag until after dark. That's the primary light for patrols, the Surefire is a backup.

Of course, I used to work in northern Alaska where it was dark 11/18-01/30 on a yearly basis.

[Maelstrom]

What if your employer tells you no?

That's basically what happens to many people with the proper certifications, they're told "Do not carry that, company policy, you are to observe, report, and not intervene."

Actually that's what the company policy is... some SO's disregard policy and carry telescopic batons (their reasoning is better safe than sorry & deal with company later), personally I'm looking into additional gear but currently carry a 6D maglite.

Currently (here) there is much debate over whether prohibiting a SO to have full use of the Force Continuum (for which they've been trained) contravenes Australian OH&S laws, which is why I've been so curious regarding the US situation.


I don't know ANY security guard who carries all that stuff. Three sets of cuffs for a security guard? Two flashlights?

With all due respect... I carry 2 or more flashlights (usually only 2 though) on my route, you never know when one may fail despite your preparedness, and some of the places I patrol are pitch black at night ;)

[craig333]

If I worked an industrial site maybe I could carry what I wanted, but in the medical building, if not my supervisor, or the building supervisor, someone would notice. Especially as the other guy(s) don't carry anything.

[Maelstrom]

Yeah I guess working in a medical building/hospital you'd get a lot of public exposure, that would definitely be a double edged sword as your organisation wouldn't want your appearance (ie. equipment carried) to unsettle visitors, but you'd have no equipment to deal with extremely toxic visitors (for which the organisation may wish you to deal with) :rolleyes:

[Bern Wheaton]

I have been a arm and UN arm Security Officer,We were allowed to carry 38.and some company's let us carry our own which allot of us did ,which were the 357 SW but with 38 rounds. But I found if you can talk your way out of anything you got a better chance then using the weapon. I have only Pulled my weapon once .But once you pull it out of it holster you better be ready to use it and not question it! The same with a billy club there only for self defense and to deterrent.As a police officer told me once you can run away your not paid enough to get yourself killed !And call us!

[Maelstrom]

Let's face it... the world's not exactly a nice place, I'm not advocating we carry a baton/defensive weaponry and be pro-active, more that it's better to be equiped appropriately for that potential occassion when we can't retreat or talk our way out of trouble, remember it's our primary duty to make it home at the end of our shift ;)

[Charger]

...remember it's our primary duty to make it home at the end of our shift ;)

You'd better be careful there bud. You're sounding more & more like an experienced, well-trained S/O every day! :D LOL

[Maelstrom]

I should give full credit to my RTO there... it's advice he gave that's stuck in my head :D

[Bern Wheaton]

I am not saying we can always retreat. But in any case calming the person down helps. And I am always happy to go home!;)

[Maelstrom]

But in any case calming the person down helps.

That would have to be our primary goal whilst dealing with an agitated individual... attitude and the way we conduct ourselves can have a dramatic impact on our success, not merely in the securtiy industry but in all interpersonal interactions ;)

[jeff194307]

I have been watching this post without comment, but I feel that I should respond. Folks, the idea of being armed on a post that is supposed to be unarmed bothers me. The first commment that I have is what do you do if you use the weapon? For one you will likely lose your job and then have a hard time getting another security job. If your client says unarmed, then that is what you do. When a situation arrises that you are unable to resolve because you are not armed, then you simply call to local law enforcement people who will handle the problem. We are not police officers and should not feel that law enforcement is our primary function. I have been armed when working at a supemax prison and I am here to tell all of you that using deadly force is not fun. Like it or not, our job is mainly oberve and report, that is the nature of being a security officer. Even when the job is pro-active, we still should prefer to resolve situations verbally without having to resort to use of force. When you have to use force, you have not done your job correctly. If you do use force, it must be on a sliding scale, escalating to gain compliance and deescalating when compliance is obtained. Please do not carry any type of weapon when the client says no.

[Maelstrom]

When you have to use force, you have not done your job correctly.

That's not fair, you can please most people most of the time but you can't please everbody ALL of the time... people are unpredictable (potentially volatile) and you're not going to achieve a win-win outcome 100% of the time (which doesn't mean you shouldn't try)

Working with that mentality... if you have a motor vehicle collision then you weren't driving correctly, despite the fact the car that hit you ran a red light as you were crossing the intersection...

* shakes head *

[Andy Taylor]

Jeff, while I agree with most of your post, I take issue with the idea that if you use force, you have not done your job properly. There are many circumstances where you have no choice. Somelne with your experience should know that. I have used force in the past, and most likely will in the future. I have not done it often, and I try to avoid it. But to say that on those occasions where it was neccessary, I find it a little insulting to be told my job was not done properly.

[jeff194307]

I was not trying to insult anyone with my comment, I have used force just as most here have, but when I must use force, I feel that somehow I might have not done my job correctly. The best weapon that all of us have is between our ears.

[Charger]

I was not trying to insult anyone with my comment, I have used force just as most here have, but when I must use force, I feel that somehow I might have not done my job correctly. The best weapon that all of us have is between our ears.

I can understand feeling like maybe things weren't done properly, after an incident has gone down. But simply saying that the job wasn't done right if force was used, is completely incorrect. Just because YOU as an S/O may go into every single situation with no intention of using force, does NOT mean that the person you're contacting has that same idea in mind. You may walk around the corner of a building to find yourself staring down the business end of a baseball bat. If he swings with no provocation, and you use force to defend yourself, did you do the job wrong?

I certainly agree that our mind is our best weapon, but sometimes it simply isn't enough, no matter how hard you try. :D

[Maelstrom]

but when I must use force, I feel that somehow I might have not done my job correctly.

Ah... I can see what you mean now, when analyzing a situation/altercation in hindsight it occurs to us we could've chosen option C, the reality is however that we can only expect to do our best on any given occassion and whatever course of action comes to mind first is (almost always) what we go with ;)

[Bern Wheaton]

Well if we could sit there and decided which options was the best while a fight was occurring we wouldn't feel guilty and say could I have done better?

When something happens and I know there has been a few times,well maybe more the few ,that I would sit there and say did I do the right thing?
There is no correct answer for this question!

When something is going down you do the best you can do, your brain is going a hundred miles a hour thinking this what I have to do! And you do it.

You follow your experience your knowledge, and training and do the best you can do!

[SecTrainer]

I was not trying to insult anyone with my comment, I have used force just as most here have, but when I must use force, I feel that somehow I might have not done my job correctly. The best weapon that all of us have is between our ears.

In an ideal world there should always be some provision in a security agency to conduct after-action analysis to answer the very question you raise, among others. Companies that do not do this are missing the best opportunity they will ever have to learn from their experiences and improve their policies, procedures, training, etc.

The fact that you engage in this process informally after an incident involving use of force does you credit.

[Bill Warnock]

In an ideal world there should always be some provision in a security agency to conduct after-action analysis to answer the very question you raise, among others. Companies that do not do this are missing the best opportunity they will ever have to learn from their experiences and improve their policies, procedures, training, etc.

The fact that you engage in this process informally after an incident involving use of force does you credit.
SecTrainer his actions do reflect credit upon him. Were it a tragedy it would remain a tragedy until it became a learning tool; however, far too many companies this represents a serious challenge in that it removes that veil of ignorance many wish to hide behind.
Enjoy the day,
Bill

[Ironskull]

I am armed. I carry a .40 Glock 22 and OC. I carry a full duty belt, the same one I carried while on the sheriff's department. I have 2 pair of cuffs, 2 extra 15 round mags, OC, light, glove pouch with 2 pair of latex gloves, a radio holder and keys besides my Glock. I also carry a S&W 340 PD in .357 magnum.

Jack

[tattedupboy]

For a long time the only authorized weapons for Campus Security here was your ASP and your Pepper Foam.

However after two armed car jackings, over the course of about a month and a half, the Univeristy President gave the green light to Arm the Officers.

So now in the next three to four months or so we will be trained to use a gun and tazer.
Apparently we will be required to carry all of the following while on duty:
ASP
Pepper spray
Tazer
9mm Beretta
PLUS all the regular stuff (maglight, radio, cuffs, spare clips, ect..)

How many of you security guards are armed? How did it feel if you were around for a switch from unarmed to armed (or switching from a unarmed job to an armed job). Also, the Tazer, useful or never used?
thanks

I can't afford a taser, but I do carry a 600,000 volt stun gun on my duty belt. Not once have I ever had to deploy it, or even pull it out of its pouch.

[bigdog]

I would be very interested in seeing a picture of your duty belt with all the stuff. I don't know ANY security guard who carries all that stuff. Three sets of cuffs for a security guard? Two flashlights? A police officer yes, but even then I don't know any that would carry two of the same flashlight. With all that equipment it is just over the top....

sometimes it takes 3 sets of cuffs there are some really big boys walking around . I remember one episode of cops some guy was so big they needed four sets . he was a big mofo.

[doulos Christou]

I would be very interested in seeing a picture of your duty belt with all the stuff. I don't know ANY security guard who carries all that stuff. Three sets of cuffs for a security guard? Two flashlights? A police officer yes, but even then I don't know any that would carry two of the same flashlight. With all that equipment it is just over the top....

How many guards have you seen? How many of them work mostly in the areas of project homes or gang areas? Yea...that's kind of what I figured.

[doulos Christou]

When you have to use force, you have not done your job correctly

If I shoot a crack-head with a gun threatening me or someone else, I have failed at my job? Total B.S. hoss.

[doulos Christou]

sometimes it takes 3 sets of cuffs there are some really big boys walking around . I remember one episode of cops some guy was so big they needed four sets . he was a big mofo.

It doesn't really have much to do with that. I just work on occassion with a moron who doesn't bring all the gear required for the job. I have amassed quite a collection over the years. I have about 10 sets of cuffs (one year my mom, girlfriend, and grandma all gave me cuffs as gifts) in the trunk as well as a few batons and multiple cans of spray. I know some jerk-off is going to say that it is excessive carry, but when someone else shows up unprepared, I can either call the supervisor to send them home and be left on-site with no shot at back-up, babysit them all night, or loan/sell them my gear so I don't have to watch their back, the clients' and my own.

[JSam21]

It doesn't really have much to do with that. I just work on occassion with a moron who doesn't bring all the gear required for the job. I have amassed quite a collection over the years. I have about 10 sets of cuffs (one year my mom, girlfriend, and grandma all gave me cuffs as gifts) in the trunk as well as a few batons and multiple cans of spray. I know some jerk-off is going to say that it is excessive carry, but when someone else shows up unprepared, I can either call the supervisor to send them home and be left on-site with no shot at back-up, babysit them all night, or loan/sell them my gear so I don't have to watch their back, the clients' and my own.

Exactly. In any form of law enforcement there is no such thing as being over prepared

[BadBoynMD]

Exactly. In any form of law enforcement there is no such thing as being over prepared

Yeah, but some people take it to a whole other level. I can understand having reserve equipment in the trunk. However, having several knives, guns, batons, sprays, cuffs, etc is just a bit much. I can't ever stop laughing at some, security officers that come out in full tac gear. If I were a property owner/management, that wouldn't fly well with me. As a consumer that would make me get back into the car and go somewhere else. As it would seem that it's bad place to be if security needs to be outfitted in such a way.

[Bill Warnock]

One skill both security and law enforcement officers must always maintain is awareness. Things can go South in a heartbeat.
If you must use deadly force as a last resort, hopefully the powers that be will send a shooting team to the scene to make their inquiries.
Before writing this, I made some phone calls to folks I trust for their wisdom and experience. The consensus was to immediately write down the sequence of events as soon as possible before you say anything to anyone in "Dick and Jane" language. Avoid argot, jargon, lingo or cant at all costs. Your own writing can be your downfall if you are not clear and concise. Remember disclosure, disclosure. Then request an appearance before a "grand jury" in the County where the incident took place. If a "No Bill" is returned you can breathe a sigh of temporary relief. Above all do not speak to the press or your friends until you are permitted, then paucity of speech.
Enjoy the day,
Bill

[JSam21]

One skill both security and law enforcement officers must always maintain is awareness. Things can go South in a heartbeat.
If you must use deadly force as a last resort, hopefully the powers that be will send a shooting team to the scene to make their inquiries.
Before writing this, I made some phone calls to folks I trust for their wisdom and experience. The consensus was to immediately write down the sequence of events as soon as possible before you say anything to anyone in "Dick and Jane" language. Avoid argot, jargon, lingo or cant at all costs. Your own writing can be your downfall if you are not clear and concise. Remember disclosure, disclosure. Then request an appearance before a "grand jury" in the County where the incident took place. If a "No Bill" is returned you can breathe a sigh of temporary relief. Above all do not speak to the press or your friends until you are permitted, then paucity of speech.
Enjoy the day,
Bill


I can't agree more. One of the last things anyone is trained on is report writing. Which, I feel, is one of the most importiant things any officer will have to do. I can't tell you how many guys, most who have years on me, that I've had to sit down with and actually have to write their reports for them because they couldn't formulate a sentence.

If you can't write a proper report then your butt can get put up in a sling even if you followed proper procedure.

[Bill Warnock]

I can't agree more. One of the last things anyone is trained on is report writing. Which, I feel, is one of the most importiant things any officer will have to do. I can't tell you how many guys, most who have years on me, that I've had to sit down with and actually have to write their reports for them because they couldn't formulate a sentence.

If you can't write a proper report then your butt can get put up in a sling even if you followed proper procedure.
JSam21, you would be surprised how many times I have been hired just to rewrite survey reports. I have recommended Kate L. Turabian's book, "A Manual for Writers." The last time I checked it was the Fifth Edition and that was Revised.
Before I retired, my boss asked one of our coworkers to visit him in his office.The door was then closed. This gentleman was an English major. My boss later told me he complemented the writer on the structure of the report but only a couple of things had to be added. Sentences must have a subject and a predicate, other than that they were fine. The survey report must have a main theme of what the survey was about and not mentioning the facility visited was in bad form. The closing shot was, each and every paragraph must have an identifiable theme. What do you want the Chief of the Division and the other readers to take away from the report? After several failed attempts, my boss and I rewrote the entire report after having made several frustrating phone calls to the visited site.
Your points are very well taken.
Enjoy the day,
Bill

[Hank1]

sometimes it takes 3 sets of cuffs there are some really big boys walking around . I remember one episode of cops some guy was so big they needed four sets . he was a big mofo.

I too, carry 3 pairs of cuffs now. The reason is very simple. Once, I had three subjects detained . But had two pairs on me at the time, a third suspect came out from the shadows......Long story, but necessary at the time, so now 3 is what I carry.

Be safe,

Hank

[DarkMetalWolf]

Don't laugh. If your carrying the M18, its happened before. In California. A suspect who was kicking out a cruiser window was fatally shot with a Glock 17 by a city police officer. She stated, "I'll calm him down," opened the door a crack, drew her Glock, and put a round in his chest.

She then totally broke down and started screaming at the deputies she had responded to assist and transport for to save the suspect. He was pronounced dead.

That's how to leave us hanging :D .....What happen to the cop? Was there any change of policy?

[BadBoynMD]

That's how to leave us hanging :D .....What happen to the cop? Was there any change of policy?

If i'm not mistaken, she (the city officer) had her taser on the same side as her issued Glock handgun. If memory recalls the first models were all black, whereas now they have yellow on them. Change of policy is what you basically see now. Taser designed all models to have bright yellow markings, except for the newest X26 models, as they are alot smaller and differently shaped than the M18/26 models. The taser must be worn on the opposite side of your firearm.

As for the officer, I am not sure what ended up happening to her. I THINK she's still beatin' the pavement, could be wrong.

[doulos Christou]

In the words of my FTO: "How many times have you walked down the street and seen someone kickin their own ass?"


The exact reason I always carry multiple sets of cuffs.

[alowe56]

I have just always hated that people think that bullets and cartridges can be "outlawed, except if you're the police." The only way that can happen is if it meets the criteria of a controlled round by BATF standards. Black Talons aren't armor piercing the way that AP rounds are. They just happen to shred armor and carrier, if they're going fast enough. Doesn't meet the criteria, but Winchester knew if they didn't use a distribution restriction "request," they'd be sued.
From all the stuff I've read, the scariest thing about the Black Talon was the name. And the funny thing is, ever since they changed it, everyone outside the typical gun owning community forgot all about it.

[alowe56]

In the words of my FTO: "How many times have you walked down the street and seen someone kickin their own ass?"


The exact reason I always carry multiple sets of cuffs.
Back in the day, I started with one pair, went to 2 pair, and finally settled on those plastic thingys. That is to say, I had 2 pair of regular cuffs, and a pouch with the plastic tie wraps.

But now I work a nice quiet post, all I need is my laptop and some DVDs to while away the night. ;)

[wvd1979]

concealed weapons permits are nearly impossibly to attain in California.

Maryland is the same way. Seems like you either need to be a cop, a retired cop, or carry $50,000 in cash to get a CWP in Maryland.

Drive 10 miles to Pennsylvania and you can just go to the courthouse and get one. Go figure.

[BritMike]

I seem to see comments that say "I am not in favor of armed Guards" called Security Officers here in Florida.

A question, how can you protect yourself against an armed assailant?

Keep Safe.

[gixxer32404]

Why on earth do you need to carry 2 flashlights?

I knew one company that actually required it (2 lights). I would guess in case one died.

[gixxer32404]

I have been a arm and UN arm Security Officer,We were allowed to carry 38.and some company's let us carry our own which allot of us did ,which were the 357 SW but with 38 rounds. But I found if you can talk your way out of anything you got a better chance then using the weapon. I have only Pulled my weapon once .But once you pull it out of it holster you better be ready to use it and not question it! The same with a billy club there only for self defense and to deterrent.As a police officer told me once you can run away your not paid enough to get yourself killed !And call us!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
That's why some of the Florida regs are silly. If you mean run off the company premises 1 the company can/will terminate you, 2 The state can take your license for leaving a post.

Another side of this coin is you are working security as a pt job. You get off at 0700. You have to be at your ft job at 0730 which is 15 minute drive. Yet the company hired a warm body who is late,you can't leave and it's 0800. What do you do?

[alowe56]

------------------------------------------------------------------------
That's why some of the Florida regs are silly. If you mean run off the company premises 1 the company can/will terminate you, 2 The state can take your license for leaving a post.

Another side of this coin is you are working security as a pt job. You get off at 0700. You have to be at your ft job at 0730 which is 15 minute drive. Yet the company hired a warm body who is late,you can't leave and it's 0800. What do you do?
Don't take a part time job with a shift that ends half an hour before your full time job. :)

I once had a part time job. I made sure that part time job started AFTER my full time shift was over, not the other way around.

[gixxer32404]

The point is these companies and dol use scare tactics about leaving a scene with out relief. While I've observed some people miss a whole shift no call and no show yet you are required to stay on post.

[Swifty]

Going back a little ways now but the same thing happened here in Washington state. A police officer was going to taze a guy hiding in a tree but pulled his sidearm instead. Shot him right in the ass with a single round. The guy was OK and the department mandated retraining of all officers that carried tazers. I think that was the end of it recourse wise.

[N. A. Corbier]

The point is these companies and dol use scare tactics about leaving a scene with out relief. While I've observed some people miss a whole shift no call and no show yet you are required to stay on post.

...

Its not that hard to understand.

If you don't show up for work, you're not committing fraud against the client. FSS 493 has a rule about "defrauding the client," which has been intrepreted by the Division to mean: If the guard firm says it'll put a guard from 9 PM to 7 AM, then they must have a guard there every minute.

If you leave, without an acceptable reason (the Division really doesn't find any reason acceptable), then you are defrauding the client because the firm is paying you to remain on post your entire shift, at all times, no exceptions.

You can not show up and keep your license because you aren't defrauding anyone. But if you show up, assume your post, then leave without being properly relieved, then you are cheating the client out of money and will lose your license upon the state finding out.

[gixxer32404]

How many times has a company scheduled me for 2100-0300 at site A. and schedule me for 0200-0800 at site B. (due to lack of man power).

Are there any laws preventing these companies from working up 36 hours straight? I certainly have done it with out sleeping on the job.

[sec-guy]

I knew one company that actually required it (2 lights). I would guess in case one died.

Same reason if you carried 2 pencils:)