casion security

[mallpopo]

anyone here work casino security?? that to me would be the closest security could get to being like police work

[Lawson]

anyone here work casino security?? that to me would be the closest security could get to being like police work

Are you sure? Ive seen a few sites where security is charged with vehicle patrol, bike patrol, foot patrol, contacting residents and businesses, committing traffic enforcement on their site, being the primary responder to law violations on their site, etc...

[mallpopo]

Yes I am sure

[HotelSecurity]

anyone here work casino security?? that to me would be the closest security could get to being like police work

Hotels are like mini cities!

Neil

[mallpopo]

unless you are already college/university campus police :D

[Tennsix]

unless you are already college/university campus police :D
And that entails a lot more than most people would ever imagine...

[Tennsix]

I don't really agree with that. I'm a peace officer at a college and I find my job to be pretty easy for the most part.
I suppose it varies with different schools. I am a police officer at a university with +100K. My campus has about 45K and we answer calls off-campus as well. I used to work for a city and county PD and we do all the same stuff at the university PD-search warrants, arrest warrants, misdemeanor and felony arrests, traffic stops, etc.

[Michael Ledgerwood]

Closest job to actual law enforcement is working proprietary security, not contract security like most hotels have. Having known several officers who worked security for casinos in Las Vegas, while the job can be fun and exciting they are in no way like law enforcement. From what I hear Nevada restricts security but I can be wrong on that. Heres some advice, you want to drive around and act like a cop then go to work for a police department, if you want a little more excitement then go to work at a college or airport or military base.

[Tennsix]

Well, there's the difference. My campus has only about 10K students. We also answer calls off campus, make arrests, traffic stops, etc. The only thing you do that we don't is arrest on arrest or bench warrants and carry a firearm.
In NY, how is a peace officer different from a police officer? In Indiana, a police officer and peace officer are one in the same. Some people think we are security and are baffled when they learn we are in the drugs task force, have SWAT officers, and FBI academy grads, and run a police academy. That is why I said a lot of people have no idea what all we do. They think we are high priced baby sitters.

[N. A. Corbier]

In NY, how is a peace officer different from a police officer? In Indiana, a police officer and peace officer are one in the same. Some people think we are security and are baffled when they learn we are in the drugs task force, have SWAT officers, and FBI academy grads, and run a police academy. That is why I said a lot of people have no idea what all we do. They think we are high priced baby sitters.

Some people cannot read a badge.

[Tennsix]

Some people cannot read a badge.
Hell, a lot of the poeple we (all of us here) deal with can't read at all! :D

[histfan71]

Some people cannot read a badge.

A badge means nothing. There are plenty of wanna-be security guards out there who can buy a very police-looking badge from unscrupulous badge manufactures (Blackington comes to mind) that can fool the average citizen. Also, police badges have been stolen or have otherwise fallen into the hands of the wrong people. One of the Hillside Stranglers here in LA, I think it was Kenneth Bianchi, lured his victims in by flashing a perfectly authentic California Highway Patrol badge he bought at a swap meet. I have no idea how the CHP badge ended up at the swap meet, but was probably stolen.

It is a police ID card that carries the name of your agency, your rank, your serial number, your photo and the signature of the chief of police (or county sheriff as the case may be) that makes you a police officer.

[GCMC Security]

A badge means nothing. There are plenty of wanna-be security guards out there who can buy a very police-looking badge from unscrupulous badge manufactures (Blackington comes to mind) that can fool the average citizen.

:eek:

Blackington is unscrupulous???? (that's a big word for this old Marine) I know of a few companies and at least two LEO Agencies that use Blackington!

[Tennsix]

A badge means nothing. There are plenty of wanna-be security guards out there who can buy a very police-looking badge from unscrupulous badge manufactures (Blackington comes to mind) that can fool the average citizen. Also, police badges have been stolen or have otherwise fallen into the hands of the wrong people. One of the Hillside Stranglers here in LA, I think it was Kenneth Bianchi, lured his victims in by flashing a perfectly authentic California Highway Patrol badge he bought at a swap meet. I have no idea how the CHP badge ended up at the swap meet, but was probably stolen.

It is a police ID card that carries the name of your agency, your rank, your serial number, your photo and the signature of the chief of police (or county sheriff as the case may be) that makes you a police officer.
You are correct but in reality, people respond to a badge. The few times I have "badged" someone with my police ID, they questioned it and asked to see my badge.

[histfan71]

:eek:

Blackington is unscrupulous???? (that's a big word for this old Marine) I know of a few companies and at least two LEO Agencies that use Blackington!

Blackington will make any type of badge with any type of lettering on it for anybody. Here in California it is illegal for ANY security badge or patch (not just contract security but in-house as well) to have the state seal. There are also word restrictions such as deputy, constable, peace officer, ranger, police officer, United States, Task Force, Law Enforcement, Detective, Investigator, Special Agent, etc.

I have known several contract security companies to have Blackington make their company badges with the California state seal and words such as "Private Law Enforcement" and "Special Officer" because scrupulous badge companies such as Sun Badge Company and Entenmann-Rovin wouldn't touch their business with a ten-foot-pole.

While oval badges are not illegal per say here, Sun and Entenmann will not make badges that resemble those of local law enforcement, which they define to include oval badges, for private security. They only two shapes they will make for security are seven-point stars and the eagle-topped tear-drop shaped badges, much like Tennsix's avatar.

In these parts about 7-8 years ago, there was a PI who called his business "Office of Special Investigations", and I think he was based in Riverside County. His badges were made by Blackington and they were exact reproductions of the badges carried by Special Agent's of the Air Force's Office of Special Investigations, except the rank read "Agent" or something similar rather than "Special Agent". When this guy got busted for impersonation and some other charges the local newspaper showed pictures of his badges, that's how I know the story.

[HotelSecurity]

In Canada Police Officers are Peace Officers. People who can arrest only on their property & only have their powers while on duty (police have their powers 24 hours a day) are called Special Constables.

[Tennsix]

Peace officers cannot arrest on warrants and their powers only exist while working and in their geographical area of patrol, and adjoining roadways. Other than that, the powers are exactly the same as a police officer.

The sad part is, police officers in NY attend a minimum of 26 weeks of training before becoming certified. An armed peace officer only needs a minimum of 3. Obviously we attend much more, but there are some agencies out there (town constables mostly) that send guys out with that little.
What is the logic behind unarmed peace officers, at your agency? Your being unarmed and conducting law enforcment duties could have disasterous consequences.

[N. A. Corbier]

The logic behind having peace officers is because it's a private college, we can't be police officers. Police officers can only be employed by government agencies, not private organizations. The logic behind us being unarmed is because the college community is extremely liberal and even though the city that surrounds us has a sky-high crime rate and students are being robbed at gunpoint, they still feel it necessary to have us unarmed. :(

You'll scare the parents if your armed. "I send my son to get his degree in Marine Science to this prestigious college, and they need armed guards with guns?!"

"They're police officers, ma'am."

"Even worse! They need police to police my son? Is the crime that bad here?!"

[Tennsix]

That’s a whole ‘nother can of worms. People often think only responsibility of university/college police is the student body.

[Mr. Security]

Blackington will make any type of badge with any type of lettering on it for anybody.....

Is it Blackinton that's the problem or is it the vendors?

[Mr. Security]

A badge means nothing.....

It is a police ID card that carries the name of your agency, your rank, your serial number, your photo and the signature of the chief of police (or county sheriff as the case may be) that makes you a police officer.

Police ID cards have been forged just like a driver's license. You need to look at the whole picture, in other words, does something seem fishy about the circumstances and the individual who professes to be LE. You may have to verify the claim with a phone call to the police.

Remember, armored cars and cash handling facilities have been robbed by people who appeared to be police officers. When in doubt, check it out.

[N. A. Corbier]

Is it Blackinton that's the problem or is it the vendors?

Considering they assured me that, when I talked with them, nobody could get a badge similiar to mine... I'd call that their problem.

[histfan71]

Is it Blackinton that's the problem or is it the vendors?

It is Blackinton's problem because they are the making the badge, not the vendor. Blackinton can always say no.

[histfan71]

Considering they assured me that, when I talked with them, nobody could get a badge similiar to mine... I'd call that their problem.

Did you get your badge approved by the state and/or local PD? Or is that not required in WI?

[N. A. Corbier]

Did you get your badge approved by the state and/or local PD? Or is that not required in WI?

The only regulation of security in Wisconsin is that you pay 95 dollars for a Private Investigation Agency permit, have licensed persons, maintain required insurance, and PIs may not display a badge. Everything else about a company is unregulated. Your badge can look like anything that reasonably doesn't make a reasonable person believe you are a "public officer."

Actually, that's the first I've heard of having a badge approved by any governmental body.

Case in point: Florida dosen't care what your badge looks like, so long as it isn't a 5 point star, dosen't say police sheriff or trooper on it, and dosen't have a state seal on it. They don't actively go out looking, nor are you required to send them a badge design for approval.

[histfan71]

Here in California you have to send your badge and patch designs to the Bureau of Security and Investigative Services. If your designs are approved, BSIS will send you a Letter of Approval. You have to keep this letter on file and show it to a BSIS investigator or any law enforcement officer on demand.

That being said, the only time I have seen BSIS reject a badge/patch design is when they have the CA state seal or have a title such as police, sheriff, ranger, law enforcement, etc. At one time in the mid 1990’s BSIS was having a fit over the generic badges that say “Security Enforcement Officer” because they did not like the word “enforcement” but then they did a 180 and okayed them.

Many local agencies have an ordinance that security uniforms, badges, and patches cannot resemble those of the local agency regardless of what BSIS may allow. The City of Los Angeles has such an ordinance and I used to cite any and all security guards I found wearing a dark blue uniform and/or had an oval badge. In the LAPD only traffic cops wear shoulder patches, so I did not care what type of patches they wore as long as they did not say police. I felt kind of bad about giving the individual guard a citation since the guard does not have any say in what uniforms the company issues, but then I got over it. I used to love seeing the security guard's expression when one of them would call me to solve a problem but the guard was the one who ended up with a citation for looking too much like me. At least I was always nice about it and never gave the guard the citation in front of others. In LA the vast majority of city ordinance violations (including wearing a uniform similar to LAPD) are infractions and only punished by a fine.

[N. A. Corbier]

Here in California you have to send your badge and patch designs to the Bureau of Security and Investigative Services. If your designs are approved, BSIS will send you a Letter of Approval. You have to keep this letter on file and show it to a BSIS investigator or any law enforcement officer on demand.

That being said, the only time I have seen BSIS reject a badge/patch design is when they have the CA state seal or have a title such as police, sheriff, ranger, law enforcement, etc. At one time in the mid 1990’s BSIS was having a fit over the generic badges that say “Security Enforcement Officer” because they did not like the word “enforcement” but then they did a 180 and okayed them.

Many local agencies have an ordinance that security uniforms, badges, and patches cannot resemble those of the local agency regardless of what BSIS may allow. The City of Los Angeles has such an ordinance and I used to cite any and all security guards I found wearing a dark blue uniform and/or had an oval badge. In the LAPD only traffic cops wear shoulder patches, so I did not care what type of patches they wore as long as they did not say police. I felt kind of bad about giving the individual guard a citation since the guard does not have any say in what uniforms the company issues, but then I got over it. I used to love seeing the security guard's expression when one of them would call me to solve a problem but the guard was the one who ended up with a citation for looking too much like me. At least I was always nice about it and never gave the guard the citation in front of others. In LA the vast majority of city ordinance violations (including wearing a uniform similar to LAPD) are infractions and only punished by a fine.

In Wisconsin and Florida, being issued such a citiation would result in your license being permenantly revoked for impersonating a "public"/"law enforcement" officer.

[Tennsix]

The worst part is what happens to students - we can only arrest them for a small list of serious infractions. DWI, Disorderly Conduct, possession of controlled substances - all infractions that we file a conduct report on and release the student on his or her own recognizance with no legal action whatsoever.
Is that dept policy or a statutory limitation?

[N. A. Corbier]

Department policy. Guess who writes most of our policies? A panel of students with guidance from a Dean.

See, that's silly. Your a law enforcement organization, given police powers by the State of New York. You should be required under statute to enforce the laws of the State, as a sworn officer.

I would think that the State of New York would have more control over its peace officers, since your operating under its name. I could see a DUI lawsuit go terribly wrong against your college and the state that authorizes your peace officer powers. Something along the lines of:

Officer conducts traffic stop, writes for DUI. Suspect RORed, conduct report filed. DUI suspect continues on way, kills bus full of nuns.

If your allowed to arrest and transport for DUI, there are other crimes that still pose a risk to the public.

Does this committee get any guidance on your policies as far as releasing prisoners taken in the name of the state?

I mean, if there's no legal action taken, ie: citation turned in or arrest affidavit filed in juristictional court, then what's the purpose of having peace officers?

[Mr. Security]

....... I felt kind of bad about giving the individual guard a citation since the guard does not have any say in what uniforms the company issues, but then I got over it. I used to love seeing the security guard's expression when one of them would call me to solve a problem but the guard was the one who ended up with a citation for looking too much like me. At least I was always nice about it and never gave the guard the citation in front of others. In LA the vast majority of city ordinance violations (including wearing a uniform similar to LAPD) are infractions and only punished by a fine.

And you couldn't just give the guard a warning the first time? Frankly, your admission about enjoying the guard's reaction to receiving an infraction concerns me. :(

[histfan71]

And you couldn't just give the guard a warning the first time? Frankly, your admission about enjoying the guard's reaction to receiving an infraction concerns me. :(

Nope. My feelings about untrained, unprofessional, convicted criminal, power-hungry, self-aggrandizing, civil-rights-violating, pathetic, failed-the-police-test-twelve-times, wanna-be-cop contract security guards are well known here.

Even though I realize that the individual guard (usually) has no say into what uniforms his employer chooses to issue in my experience the contract companies that dress up their guards in police-like uniforms, badges, patches and patrol cars attract the kind of guard I described above.

I see the great potential of the security industry, especially in these days after 9/11. However, I will proudly do whatever I can to rid the industry of the menace guards such as I described.

[N. A. Corbier]

Well, obviously we don't let a DWI suspect get back in his car and go. We still tow the car, but the student suspect is free to go after information has been taken for a conduct report.

The purpose of having peace officers, according to the college is to protect the college's staff, students and interests from outsiders (read: city scumbags).

That's weird to me. As a non sworn security officer, once I took a DUI suspect into custody to protect him and the public, I could not release him, nor could the police officer who showed up to arrest him. The guy "had" to go, if it was detectable to the police officer, and we "had" to stop them if it was detectable to the security officer. This was due to the liability of allowing a drunk to drive. :(

I can see you have the liability covered by impounding the vehicle, but the state dosen't require you prosecute the offense since you deprived the person of his motor vehicle?

[N. A. Corbier]

No, our union consulted with an attorney to see if we had a "duty to act" of sorts, and it was determined that we did not.

That's fascinating. I'd of thought that being empowered by the state to enforce laws (make arrests) as a peace officer would require you to act in the state's name.

It almost sounds like your a Justice of the Peace of some sorts.

[Tennsix]

Department policy. Guess who writes most of our policies? A panel of students with guidance from a Dean.
No, you can not do any effective police like that. There is no way...

[Tennsix]

Well, obviously we don't let a DWI suspect get back in his car and go. We still tow the car, but the student suspect is free to go after information has been taken for a conduct report.

The purpose of having peace officers, according to the college is to protect the college's staff, students and interests from outsiders (read: city scumbags).
I bet the Attorney General would throw a fit. That method of policy making could be construed as obstruction/interfering.

[Mr. Security]

Nope......
Even though I realize that the individual guard (usually) has no say into what uniforms his employer chooses to issue in my experience the contract companies that dress up their guards in police-like uniforms, badges, patches and patrol cars attract the kind of guard I described above.....

Yep, that's the solution. If you want to change the company’s uniform policy, just cite the guards. Brilliant. :rolleyes:

[EMTGuard]

My feelings about untrained, unprofessional, convicted criminal, power-hungry, self-aggrandizing, civil-rights-violating, pathetic, failed-the-police-test-twelve-times, wanna-be-cop contract security guards are well known here.

Even though I realize that the individual guard (usually) has no say into what uniforms his employer chooses to issue in my experience the contract companies that dress up their guards in police-like uniforms, badges, patches and patrol cars attract the kind of guard I described above.

I see the great potential of the security industry, especially in these days after 9/11. However, I will proudly do whatever I can to rid the industry of the menace guards such as I described. I work for a contract company with 'police style' uniforms such as you describe. I have yet to meet any SOs like you describe above. None I work with have tested for the police or want be police. Three that I know worked as State or Federal Prisons. I did the prison thing. A couple of us have worked as fire fighters or for EMS. No cops or cop wannabes. I work with some who are retired and doing the security job for the extra paycheck. I don't work with any convicted criminals and none of us are violating anyone's civil rights as we answer phones, sing in employees and deliveries to the plant or issue weight tickets to each truck coming across the scales at our main gate. I don't know where all of your negativity comes from but you seem to be seeing alot more of this than I've noticed.

[EMTGuard]

It is Blackinton's problem because they are the making the badge, not the vendor. Blackinton can always say no.
Badges don't mean anything important. You can have a badge that says anything. In addition to the Security Officer badge I wear at work, http://ssl.maxsell.com/ProductDetails.aspx?productID=1953&sm=2_11 I have one with my Ham Radio Callsign on it-
http://ssl.maxsell.com/ProductDetails.aspx?productID=2011&sm=2_14
I also have one which says Concealed Weapons Permit-
http://ssl.maxsell.com/ProductDetails.aspx?productID=5&sm=2_11
Then there's the badge I have with my VFD card before we went to a customized badge- http://ssl.maxsell.com/ProductDetails.aspx?productID=2227&sm=2_11
and my badge I have in a wallet with my EMT-B card- http://ssl.maxsell.com/ProductDetails.aspx?productID=1950&sm=2_11
I even have a Official Taxpayers badge and ID card- http://www.nles.com/store/customer/product.php?productid=1305
Pretty much anything you want can be engraved on a shield or star.

[Lawson]

Wow... never saw a "taxpayers" badge before.

[EMTGuard]

Wow... never saw a "taxpayers" badge before.
Well, while you are looking at it on the NIC website click on the ID Card and Documents section on the left and check out all the different IDs you can get or the assessories to build your own custom ID card. Lamination, Holograms, seals, wall certificates and more. If you can't find it there you can print up stuff on your own computer and have stuff done at office supply stores. Just having ID and badge is no gaurentee that the person is who they say they are.

[N. A. Corbier]

Wow... never saw a "taxpayers" badge before.

Love NIC, haven't seen their catalog in awhile, they come up with some funny stuff.

As far as badges go, it all depends on the state and what they say on them.

[histfan71]

Yep, that's the solution. If you want to change the company’s uniform policy, just cite the guards. Brilliant. :rolleyes:

The guard can always go to work for a company that does not violate the law. So the guard does bear some responsibility for wearing the wrong uniform.

[EMTGuard]

The guard can always go to work for a company that does not violate the law. So the guard does bear some responsibility for wearing the wrong uniform. I think you are just being to anal about the uniforms. Switch to decaf.

[Michael Ledgerwood]

The guard can always go to work for a company that does not violate the law. So the guard does bear some responsibility for wearing the wrong uniform.

Histfan, Your comments about security personnel bother me. You assume all of us are cop wannabes who are ignorant and run around beating people senseless? I am former Law Enforcement and current security myself and frankly officers with your attitude disgust me. There seems to be a very common occurance among police officers that "we're the police and were better than you". I got news for you histfan, your badge may say police but we do the SAME job. Your job is to protect and serve the public while mine is to protect and serve the client. This country has suffered because of communication problems. You are a police officer by trade - not above anyone else. When I worked for PD we had a great relationship with local security, and the company I work for now has a great relationship with PD. Have you ever thought that maybe because police depts and government agencies refuse to treat security with respect that that may be why there are some bad apples that give us all a bad name. There are several crappy officers working in the security field, but there are even more hard working dedicated skilled professionals in this field. Before you go touting police are better I offer you to scoot on over to Officer.com and read about all the officers getting in trouble with the law. Of course the LAPD has its bad apples (Rodney King comes to mind) should I go around and say that you beat blacks and are racist just because some of your fellow officers beat up on one? There are more instances of police violating civil rights of others than security officers. If you don't like the officers that work security in your area then why not help solve the problem instead of contributing to it. You will find that if police departments work with security that strangely only top notch officers who know their limits and are good at their jobs are employed by the company. If you don't like security then I suggest you leave this website. Remember 1 thing, security outnumber police in the US 100 to 1 - might want those numbers on your side. Your attitude won't get you anywhere. This is the age of community policing and cooperation, not greed and being badge heavy. Obviously the concept of Community Oriented has escaped you.

[histfan71]

You assume all of us are cop wannabes who are ignorant and run around beating people senseless?

Most security guards are and most do exactly that. I honestly lost track of how many situations I responded to where a security guard used unnecessary and excessive force against a person. There are some INDIVIDUAL guards I have worked with who are not like that, but the vast majority are. My judgment comes from a total of 18 years in the law enforcement AND security field.


I am former Law Enforcement and current security myself

Ditto. I currently manage an in-house security department supplemented by a contract security company from time to time. I have been out of law enforcement since 2003 when the college I worked for disbanded it's police department.


I got news for you histfan, your badge may say police but we do the SAME job.

Security work is NOTHING like police work. There are some similarities, I concede, but still not the same thing. Law enforcement has heavy responsibility and accountability, two qualities seriously lacking in the security industry.


Have you ever thought that maybe because police depts and government agencies refuse to treat security with respect that that may be why there are some bad apples that give us all a bad name.

No, because the reason the security industry gets so little respect is the minimal screening, employment, and training standards in the industry. Yes, I know there are exceptions to this general rule (Boeing seems to be one of those exceptions based both on your descriptions of your department and the personal experiences I have had with Boeing guards) as I have said on several different threads in the forum.


There are several crappy officers working in the security field, but there are even more hard working dedicated skilled professionals in this field.

In my experience it is the other way around. The few "hard working dedicated skilled professionals" are vastly outnumbered by the "crappy officers." As I have said elsewhere in this forum, in-house guards get a better rep than contract guards because in my experience in-house agencies have high employment, screening, and training standards. They (generally) offer much higher pay and benefits than the contract companies, and are generally more interesting and challenging jobs. Therefore, in-house agencies can attract and retain guards of higher quality and caliber.


Before you go touting police are better I offer you to scoot on over to Officer.com and read about all the officers getting in trouble with the law.

I do. One of the biggest differences between law enforcement and security is in exactly this area. Those few bad cops who were unworthy of the badge they wore were quickly fired by their agency, many were sent to prison where they belong, and can NEVER EVER work for another law enforcement agency. Security guards in the same situation, even if the company they worked for fired them, will just go and work for some other security company and continue their misconduct. It goes back to what I said above about responsibility, accountability, and hiring standards.

Michael, I have greatly enjoyed this debate with you. Seriously, I strongly believe that you should always listen closely to those who disagree with you. They often have valid points to make. It forces me to look at a situation from a different perspective and hopefully I will learn something from it. Keep your responses coming, all of you, not just Michael.

Take care and always work safe.

[Mr. Security]

..Most security guards are and most do exactly that...

In your opinion. If you have a credible source that verifies that, then by all means post it.

[Mr. Security]

I'm sorry, but he's right. For every high-paid, background checked, licensed, QUALITY security officer, there's 100 working for some crappy contract agency sleeping in a parking garage booth.

I do not agree.

[Lawson]

IMO, I agree, I see a lot of bumbleweed security trolling around much more often than I see someone who is professional and seems to know what they are doing.

[N. A. Corbier]

I do not agree.

I agree with him to an extent. It could be a regional reason on why you don't see it.

From what I understand, Michigan (?) requires a college degree or 2 years working in security in another state to have a security guard license.

Its things like that make for less idiots, or a different breed of idiot.

Today, I noticed on Officer.com that someone from Illinois asked "who is Kenosha Private Police, and why can they call themselves that?" Some EMT guy is like, "Oh, they're a bunch of wannabes and can'thackits." I got to explain what a "private policeman" is, and why WI law is screwed up.

[Michael Ledgerwood]

Michael, I have greatly enjoyed this debate with you. Seriously, I strongly believe that you should always listen closely to those who disagree with you. They often have valid points to make. It forces me to look at a situation from a different perspective and hopefully I will learn something from it. Keep your responses coming, all of you, not just Michael.

Take care and always work safe.[/QUOTE]

Histfan, First off let me say I have enjoyed debating this issue with you. It is nice to have a discussion with a person or a group of persons who will sit down and listen to both sides instead of turning it into a heated argument. Now, I will admit that I do agree with you up to a point. There are several crappy security officers as well as security companies. But, at least in my neck of the woods, these seem to be far and few between. The reason I have noticed is that the good security companies have a wonderful relationship with police. I stand by my statement that our jobs are the same. The ultimate goal of both security and police is and should be to protect and serve. I do witness some security companies that could care less about protecting their clients and just care about the dollar which is wrong in my book. Security should be treated like private police, but only to a point. I agree security is not the police but here in WA and elsewhere I imagine, security has more privelages than the police on private property. Unless an officer has a search warrant, or witnessed a crime being comitted security can deny entry to said cop. In this post 9/11 era, the focus should be on training and communication, not on ignoring security. In my opinion, if law enforcement sees a security company acting in a wrong manner then they should offer to sit down and train the company and its officers. There is nothing accomplished when a cop car drives by and the officer assumes the guard is an idiot. I personally think that if the guard proves himself as an idiot then thats one thing but if not why not give them the benefit of the doubt. Our country would be a lot safer if 1 the security industry was held to a higher standard like police. 2 security and police communicated back and forth and worked together. 3 security had training and tools to make them more effective. I agree Histfan, there are problems in the security industry and I think the whole law enforcement profession (including security) needs a wake up call. Cops seem to forget they are still private citizens just doing a job and guards seem to forget they aren't cops. I am sorry you had bad expieriences with security in the past but I hope that does not force you to prejudge other guards. You said you work in the security field now so I am assuming at least that you have found a few good guards to work with. Take care,

Mike

[N. A. Corbier]

I don't think its in the best interest of the police to train security. At all. The job class has too many differences, and public police officers have been inset in specific method and doctrines that only apply to them.

Two things everyone needs to keep in mind.

(1) States regulate security industries. They do not train them, that is up to the industry itself. Some states regulate by requiring minimum training, or if they give police powers to private citizens, they require training as agents of the state itself. Rarely do states train as a function of itself a private enterprise to do anything.

(2) histfan71 was acting as a duly appointed agent of the state, with a legal duty to enforce California State Law as well as the ordinances of the City of Los Angeles. It is his job to regulate, and regulate alone, by citing persons he found to be in violation of those laws and ordinances. The duty to understand the uniform you wear and devices on it falls to the individual, with a vicarious liability to the company. Just as you can't say, "My company ordered me to gun down those men," you can't say, "My company ordered me to wear a state seal."

We are authorized to wear state seals in Wisconsin, because we are not a public agency, and the seal of Wisconsin does not infer official authority alone. In some states, you are not authorized to wear the seal of the state, as it does infer official authority.

One thing, though. Blackinton as well as Smith and Warren illustrate several "security" badges with California State Seals. For small companies making a start, you'll see folks go with what the manufacturer and rep from Galls says, not thinking to consult a law book or corporate counsel.

Always keep in mind that the state's job is to regulate the security industry due to the potential of misrepresentation and abuse, and never to train or assist it as a public law enforcement agency. If the state wants security to engage in public law enforcement services, they'll make them Peace Officers. If the state wants security to engage in private law enforcement services, they'll just ignore the situation.

[N. A. Corbier]

Oh, yeah. I need to note that I wrote up, then had a deputy sheriff respond to my location, because a SUPERVISOR was wearing a badge with a five point star and the Great Seal of the State of Florida on it.

Anyone who wears a Five Point Star and who is not a Sheriff or his Deputy violates FSS 30 - Sheriff Act. Anyone who wears a Great Seal of the State of Florida with a Florida Sillouette on it violates multiple statutes.

The supervisor was a crazy old bastard who stated that since he was a deputy in the 1950s in Alabama, he can wear a star on his badge.

The deputy who cited him, seized the badge, and debated arresting him noted that the badge was actually a Deputy Bailiff's badge, which is why it said "Security" instead of Deputy.

[Echos13]

Oh, yeah. I need to note that I wrote up, then had a deputy sheriff respond to my location, because a SUPERVISOR was wearing a badge with a five point star and the Great Seal of the State of Florida on it.

Anyone who wears a Five Point Star and who is not a Sheriff or his Deputy violates FSS 30 - Sheriff Act. Anyone who wears a Great Seal of the State of Florida with a Florida Sillouette on it violates multiple statutes.

The supervisor was a crazy old bastard who stated that since he was a deputy in the 1950s in Alabama, he can wear a star on his badge.

The deputy who cited him, seized the badge, and debated arresting him noted that the badge was actually a Deputy Bailiff's badge, which is why it said "Security" instead of Deputy.

He got off lucky. An SO last year of a "ahem" average well known outfit that had a five pointed star on his jacket ended up out of work and then some. It did not have the state seal but a civil defense emblem. Though it was embroidered on he ended up in court, fined by the state and lost his "D" license. He got community service instead of jail time. Man, it’s not worth it! I have noticed these stock badges that are out now that had the circle edge and an eagle in the middle. If you look closely is had a five pointed star behind the eagle. They look good but any LEO with a sharp eye saw that I wonder what would be the result?

[Mr. Security]

I agree with him to an extent. It could be a regional reason on why you don't see it.....

There are plenty of knuckleheads in this area to. My problem with his post is more about his use of the word MOST as opposed to MANY. For example:

- There are many LEO's who have been arrested.
- Most LEO's have been arrested.

The second statement is obviously false. Splitting hairs? Perhaps. But I believe people need to say what they mean and mean what they say. If a member frequently uses words such as never, always, all, and none, then the credibility of their statements may be questionable.

[Mr. Security]

I picked most over many for a reason. I truly believe that most SOs are worthless. Just because we're professionals and care about our jobs, doesn't mean everyone does.

I sure you believe that. If you say: "I believe that most s/o's are worthless." you are expressing an opinion and that's fine. If you say: "Most s/o's are worthless." that's a statement of fact and you need to be able to back it up with more than your opinion if it is to be accepted as credible.

[histfan71]

In your opinion. If you have a credible source that verifies that, then by all means post it.

My statement comes from my personal observations and experiences during my 18 years in the security industry.

[bigdog]

That's weird to me. As a non sworn security officer, once I took a DUI suspect into custody to protect him and the public, I could not release him, nor could the police officer who showed up to arrest him. The guy "had" to go, if it was detectable to the police officer, and we "had" to stop them if it was detectable to the security officer. This was due to the liability of allowing a drunk to drive. :(

I can see you have the liability covered by impounding the vehicle, but the state dosen't require you prosecute the offense since you deprived the person of his motor vehicle?

Ah yes the detain for breach of peace authority it works great to keep drunk drivers from damaging property or people on the properties we protect. Im curious though how you got the driver to stop did he yield to the amber light bar?

[Mr. Security]

My statement comes from my personal observations and experiences during my 18 years in the security industry.

No doubt, you have encountered many s/o's who fit that profile. However, you have not worked with MOST s/o's. Do you see the difference in your word choice? People form opinions based on their own experiences in life, which represents a tiny fraction of the whole picture. That's why personal opinions can be so misleading.

Like a friend of mine says: Opinions are like belly buttons. Everyone has one and they usually smell. :)

[Mr. Security]

Ah yes the detain for breach of peace authority it works great to keep drunk drivers from damaging property or people on the properties we protect. Im curious though how you got the driver to stop did he yield to the amber light bar?

Stop strip spikes :D

[N. A. Corbier]

Ah yes the detain for breach of peace authority it works great to keep drunk drivers from damaging property or people on the properties we protect. Im curious though how you got the driver to stop did he yield to the amber light bar?

Wasn't traffic stops. Worked several properties with bars attached under the scope of the contract. Bar hated us, because we'd pop their patrons for DUI if they were falling down drunk and then tried to leave. Hotel told them to pound sand.

[Michael Ledgerwood]

I simply think that if police officers have problems with security in their area then they should sit down with them and have a discussion. I am not saying we need a bunch of private police running around, but in this post 9/11 era we will be much better off if we communicate and work as a team than a "every man for himself" mentality. Cooperation and teamwork goes a long way in accomplishing our goals.

[N. A. Corbier]

I've asked cops about this, both in real life and on officer.com.

Universally, the answer was:

It isn't my f-ing job to babysit your pathetic guards.

Add, "We should be there," or "They shouldn't allow uniformed guards," or all sorts of other things to that conversation, as well.

[Tennsix]

It doesn't seem to be that way in my area. I think most police officers (all area PD's) respect security officers. We seem to have a good working relationship with most security companies. My PD has a security divison and we all work together very well. We have roll call together, got to meal break, etc.

[talon]

What alot of Police Officers seem to be unable to understand is that there are different levels of Security, in other words the Security Guard in the shack at the local mill is not the same Security Professional doing convoy work in Iraq.

I think alot of the problem comes from 1) the media...they always show Cops in shootouts and flipping cars and doing jui jitsu when the reality for most Police Officers is quit the opposite, and 2) the Police Academy's because they drill into the heads of all young recruits that their lives are on the line every second of every day...and don't get me wrong this is a good thing to teach but alot of these guys and girls really believe it, again because of media.

And think about this...do you know of any other profession that tells people how dangerous their job is more than the Police? It seems every other word out of their mouth is danger...when you are out to lunch and the local construction workers come in to eat do they constantly talk about how much danger they are in? No! But the local yokal Police Officers can't seem to tell you enough.

I know that alot of this is bravado but come on enough is enough already, I like to impress girls as much as anyone but you know I don't tell war stories to just anyone I only tell them when I'm with a group of guys that know where I'm coming from and not the local frycook.

[Tennsix]

While most police casualties are caused by accidental assaults, law enforcement is one of the few professions where people are purposely targeted for felonious assault. That is why we academy instructors emphasize the dangerous element of the profession. Granted, it doesn’t happen everyday or every minute of the shift but one never knows when such a situation might arise. The same is true for security officers. The difference being a lot of security companies do not provide the same level of training and guidance.

Now, throw in young inexperienced recruits and you will inevitably get bad attitudes and smart a$$ hot shots.

[N. A. Corbier]

While most police casualties are caused by accidental assaults, law enforcement is one of the few professions where people are purposely targeted for felonious assault. That is why we academy instructors emphasize the dangerous element of the profession. Granted, it doesn’t happen everyday or every minute of the shift but one never knows when such a situation might arise. The same is true for security officers. The difference being a lot of security companies do not provide the same level of training and guidance.

Now, throw in young inexperienced recruits and you will inevitably get bad attitudes and smart a$$ hot shots.

I always found it strange that BLS and OSHA noted that "security guards and survelience operators" have the highest rate of job-related homicide, yet the industry refuses to address it.

Yet, OSHA and BLS require police departments to address it.

[talon]

What really kills me is when the locals complain about responding to your location, they forget that even though the business hired extra eyes and ears that they are still paid by that same property owner through taxes, and it's their "JOB". If you don't like it... quit!!! But don't whine about it.

Don't get me wrong, the Security industry holds alot of responsability for the problems...but we are not responsable for "everything". The industry as a whole needs to step up to the plate but if the Locals won't play ball whats the point.

[Michael Ledgerwood]

Someday, maybe we will all be treated with mutual respect. I for one cannot understand that police officers have against security. There is no harm in the police who complain about doing stupid calls that waste their time training security to handle those calls. People need to get it through their heads, we need to communicate and cooperate in this day and age. A few suggestions; assist your local security company, if they don't want it well at least the offer was made. When a threat is recieved or a suspect on the loose, share the info with security in your area. At the very least this info might prevent a security officer inadvertantly contacting a bad guy and getting killed. Offer to screen recruits. Police depts. can search any criminal database for free yet it costs private citizens money. People complain becuase of felons working security, but often times the databases companies go through don't show the information.
In most cases the city cop doesn't do anything for anti-terrorism. I don't see too many cops working airports or marinas or inspecting cargo (yes I know there are some who do it). The vast majority though is a private security officer that is often undertrained and underpaid. Mr. Chertoff (I think is his name) director of Homeland Security says agencies need to communicate better, yet the largest and most populated entity, security, is ignored. I know there are a lot of bad apples in our field and we need to weed them out. Hopefully our industry will change for the better and not the worse.

[Mr. Security]

While most police casualties are caused by accidental assaults, law enforcement is one of the few professions where people are purposely targeted for felonious assault. That is why we academy instructors emphasize the dangerous element of the profession....

There is NO WAY I would want to take on the risks that police officers do, especially when it comes to traffic stops. Not only do you have to worry about getting shot by the occupants in the vehicle, but you also have a good chance of some idiot plowing into you while you talk to the driver. Why LEO agencies continue to use red and/or blue lights to the rear instead of white and yellow to minimize this risk, I don't know.

Then there's the paperwork. Unbelievable. Not to mention that it's dangerous to do paperwork while you are in your cruiser. Some gang-banger or other wacko that has a grudge against the police can walk up on you at night and assassinate you.

I worry that the police officers in my area are too quick to cancel the second b/u unit because they don't want to make the other officer leave his sector. If you are a police officer, DON'T let your guard down. You should handle yourself like someone is trying to kill you because, sadly, they just might. You have my respect. :)

[histfan71]

What really kills me is when the locals complain about responding to your location, they forget that even though the business hired extra eyes and ears that they are still paid by that same property owner through taxes, and it's their "JOB". If you don't like it... quit!!! But don't whine about it.

I had no problem whatsoever when I was a cop helping a security guard when the guard really needed my help. But I'd get really annoyed if a security guard called me for some crap that he could either have handled himself or the guard caused the problem in the first place.

An example is when a security guard at an office building called the police to have a car towed out of the office building's parking lot. I was the lucky guy working a report car that day so I got the handle. A visitor parked in some executive's reserved parking space and the executive told the guard to have the visitor's car towed. Without making any effort to find the visitor, which wasn't difficult since the visitor signed in the visitor log with his name and the person he was there to see, and ask the visitor to move his car the guard just called the cops. The visitor's car was parked in a private parking lot, not a public roadway, so I could not have towed the car even if I wanted to. However; the security guard, acting as an agent of the property owner, could have had the car towed away. The security guard did not know he could have the car towed, he thought the cops had to do it. Not only that, it probably would not have been necessary to tow the car if the guard had sought out the visitor and told him to move his car. The thought of finding the visitor never crossed this guard's mind. I went and found the visitor (like I said it was not difficult) and told him to move his car to another space not marked "Reserved" or it would be towed. The visitor couldn't move fast enough. Problem solved, but it didn't need to be solved by me.

[N. A. Corbier]

I had no problem whatsoever when I was a cop helping a security guard when the guard really needed my help. But I'd get really annoyed if a security guard called me for some crap that he could either have handled himself or the guard caused the problem in the first place.

An example is when a security guard at an office building called the police to have a car towed out of the office building's parking lot. I was the lucky guy working a report car that day so I got the handle. A visitor parked in some executive's reserved parking space and the executive told the guard to have the visitor's car towed. Without making any effort to find the visitor, which wasn't difficult since the visitor signed in the visitor log with his name and the person he was there to see, and ask the visitor to move his car the guard just called the cops. The visitor's car was parked in a private parking lot, not a public roadway, so I could not have towed the car even if I wanted to. However; the security guard, acting as an agent of the property owner, could have had the car towed away. The security guard did not know he could have the car towed, he thought the cops had to do it. Not only that, it probably would not have been necessary to tow the car if the guard had sought out the visitor and told him to move his car. The thought of finding the visitor never crossed this guard's mind. I went and found the visitor (like I said it was not difficult) and told him to move his car to another space not marked "Reserved" or it would be towed. The visitor couldn't move fast enough. Problem solved, but it didn't need to be solved by me.

Of course not. Consequently, many folks simply aren't trained in that. Especially clients. I was assigned to a property for a night, and was handed the post orders. It was unarmed, and I was ordered to work it armed and "put the fear of God into them."

This generally means that the guys they have out there aren't working, and it needed some proactive enforcement and prevention.

There was nothing to indicate that there was a towing procedure. So, I contacted the resident manager and asked. He advised me that they don't tow, because the Sheriff's Office dosen't tow on private property.

I stayed after for an hour with the management, after putting those evil evil tickets on everything that needed to be towed out, finding a towing company that would do FSS 715 (Private Impound) tows. When I returned that night for another 12, the signs were up and I was ready to tow.

We towed BOATS. We towed cars, trucks, vans, motorcycles, we towed everything. After that, people started registering their cars, and the "homeowner's assocation" hated me because they were telling the members that you don't have to pay for parking permits - security never tows.

On the inverse, I rather dislike a police officer publically telling my trespass suspect that I don't have any authority to remove that person, and "only the police can tell you to leave." Her Corporal rewired her head to be in conformity with Florida Statute after the Corporal found out. If I call you out to my site to witness a trespass warning, its because your agency won't permit us to use our own forms and photographic evidence of the warning, not because "only the police can trespass people."

[N. A. Corbier]

Wonderful. Wrote a long post, and the website gave a timeout error when I submitted it. I lost 2 pages of text.

[1stWatch]

Here in California you have to send your badge and patch designs to the Bureau of Security and Investigative Services. If your designs are approved, BSIS will send you a Letter of Approval. You have to keep this letter on file and show it to a BSIS investigator or any law enforcement officer on demand.

That being said, the only time I have seen BSIS reject a badge/patch design is when they have the CA state seal or have a title such as police, sheriff, ranger, law enforcement, etc. At one time in the mid 1990’s BSIS was having a fit over the generic badges that say “Security Enforcement Officer” because they did not like the word “enforcement” but then they did a 180 and okayed them.

Many local agencies have an ordinance that security uniforms, badges, and patches cannot resemble those of the local agency regardless of what BSIS may allow. The City of Los Angeles has such an ordinance and I used to cite any and all security guards I found wearing a dark blue uniform and/or had an oval badge. In the LAPD only traffic cops wear shoulder patches, so I did not care what type of patches they wore as long as they did not say police. I felt kind of bad about giving the individual guard a citation since the guard does not have any say in what uniforms the company issues, but then I got over it. I used to love seeing the security guard's expression when one of them would call me to solve a problem but the guard was the one who ended up with a citation for looking too much like me. At least I was always nice about it and never gave the guard the citation in front of others. In LA the vast majority of city ordinance violations (including wearing a uniform similar to LAPD) are infractions and only punished by a fine.

Yeah, I heard stories about Dallas trying to arrest security guards for that kind of crap. Fortunately, the state police has spoken up about the issue and clarified that since the uniform is registered with the state bureau, it is an official uniform and there is not a thing they can do about it, as long as the state seal, state flag, or the word "police" or the name of any law enforcement agency is not displayed on it. Still, the pissing match continues.

[1stWatch]

Yep, that's the solution. If you want to change the company’s uniform policy, just cite the guards. Brilliant. :rolleyes:

Social prejudice is very prolific isn't it?

[1stWatch]

It doesn't seem to be that way in my area. I think most police officers (all area PD's) respect security officers. We seem to have a good working relationship with most security companies. My PD has a security divison and we all work together very well. We have roll call together, got to meal break, etc.

My goodness, that's how it should be. That sounds wonderful.

[talon]

"I used to cite any and all security guards I found wearing a dark blue uniform and/or had an oval badge. In the LAPD only traffic cops wear shoulder patches, so I did not care what type of patches they wore as long as they did not say police. I felt kind of bad about giving the individual guard a citation since the guard does not have any say in what uniforms the company issues, but then I got over it. I used to love seeing the security guard's expression when one of them would call me to solve a problem but the guard was the one who ended up with a citation for looking too much like me. At least I was always nice about it and never gave the guard the citation in front of others."


You know, only a complete a$$hole would cite a Security Guard for wearing a uniform that they didn't like.

Its idiotic stupidity like that that turns my stomach and has left me with such a bad taste in my mouth for Locals.

[histfan71]

You know, only a complete a$$hole would cite a Security Guard for wearing a uniform that they didn't like.

Its idiotic stupidity like that that turns my stomach and has left me with such a bad taste in my mouth for Locals.[/QUOTE]

You're welcome, Talon.

[Michael Ledgerwood]

Its funny how this was supposed to be a thread on casino security and what type of security is most like law enforcement. 9 pages later were ranting and raving on how the police need to respect us more.

[N. A. Corbier]

Its funny how this was supposed to be a thread on casino security and what type of security is most like law enforcement. 9 pages later were ranting and raving on how the police need to respect us more.
We've never really been much for "on topic" here... :)

[Tennsix]

Its funny how this was supposed to be a thread on casino security and what type of security is most like law enforcement. 9 pages later were ranting and raving on how the police need to respect us more.
In my state, casino security is police work. The state police do that job.

[histfan71]

OK, in the spirit of bringing this thread back on topic, I will tell you what I know of Indian casino security here in California, which is not much.

The majority of the tribes have two types of security; the reservation patrol that provides law enforcement-type services to the reservation community, and the casino security who do the traditional security-guard-type roles. Both of these positions are non-sworn, and carry titles such as Public Safety Officer, although one tribe calls their security "Tribal Rangers". The reservation patrol officers are universally armed while most casino security officers just carry batons and pepper spray.

Most tribes do not have a sworn tribal police department because it is notoriously difficult to do so here in California, but there are a handful who have Memorandums of Understanding with the local police department granting the tribe's security limited peace officer status. The Cabazon, Scuyan, and Jackson Rancheria tribes are among the few who have such agreements. There is a big push among the Southern California tribes (the Cabazon, Morongo, and San Manuel tribes are leading the charge) to amend California law to allow tribes to raise their own police forces. It is being fought tooth and nail by the sheriff and police unions and organizations, and the biggest complaint is about liability. It seems that a Federal law limits judgments against Indian tribes to $5 million and the local sheriffs and police chiefs are crying foul. The locals say it is unfair for Indian tribes to have some sort of limited liability when the local’s liability is unlimited. Also, the tribes wanted to have their officers trained at the Federal Bureau of Indian Affairs police academy and the state demanded that the officers attend a California Basic POST Academy. If these issues get worked out then the tribes will probably upgrade their security to police.

Unless you have extensive police experience, most newly-hired officers start as casino security officers. The pay varies by tribe, of course, but usually starts around $13 per hour. You usually have to work in the casino for a minimum of 1 year before becoming eligible for a reservation patrol spot. Pay again varies, but must reservation patrol jobs begin about $18 per hour.

I have a buddy who retired from law enforcement and went to work reservation patrol for a tribe. He tells me that the politics are pretty intense on a reservation. His department has an "unofficial" policy of not harassing the tribe members for minor violations. If fact, unless the situation is life-threatening, his department does not want their officers arresting tribe members. The department wants the officers to call the local cops to make the arrest. My buddy says that officers have been disciplined for writing legit speeding tickets to tribe members. If the violator is not a tribe member, then the officers can take any enforcement action that is appropriate.

I also know that in Riverside County, where many of the Indian tribes are located, the county sheriff does not like the tribal security departments. RSO used to cite the Cabazon officers for having red/blue light bars whenever a Cabazon DPS car was found off the reservation without having the light bar covered. One Cabazon officer was even physically arrested for impersonating a police officer when he was rolling Code-3 (lights and siren activated) to a medical emergency call. In order to get to where the emergency was the Cabazon officer had to leave the reservation for a distance before re-entering the reservation and was seen on the public street by a RSO deputy. It got so bad that the Cabazon chief removed the light bars from all their vehicles. Now that Cabazon has peace officer status the light bars were put back on.

Wow, long post. I guess I know a little more about Indian casino security than I thought.

[Tennsix]

Well, obviously we don't let a DWI suspect get back in his car and go. We still tow the car, but the student suspect is free to go after information has been taken for a conduct report.

The purpose of having peace officers, according to the college is to protect the college's staff, students and interests from outsiders (read: city scumbags).
Their logic is flawed. Criminals come in all varieties. This month, two college students went down for armed robbery. In one incident, a female student robbed a bank. In the other, a guy robbed a motel clerk then shot him and slashed his neck. We have arrested our share of faculty too. So, yeah, you do have to watch for the “outside” element but the insiders can be just as scandalous.

[Lawson]

It sounds a lot better in the media when you protected the students of the University from an outside threat, then when you had to book one of their own. Because we all know Universities would NEVER have a student who could possibly commit a felony. :rolleyes:

[crankloud]

I worked directly with police at Byron bay summer rock festival from 1999 to 2005. There were approx 20,000 drunk idiots there, every charge laid from drunk and disorderly to rape. 25 arrests over a 2 day period. Weapons such as machetes and small axes all concealed were found during entry searches. Three security officers assaulted and two police wounded also. Fun and games all round.