Use of force

[Defensive tactics]

Good day everyone
My name is Ben Wallace and I have recently started working as a loss prevention officer in Ontario, I was previusly a uniformed security officer (2 months) before I applied for my dual ministry card, The area I am working loss prevention in, is rather notorius for its "rough" nature. My question is what techniques do you guys prefer to get the "bad guys" under control quickly ? I have trained in pressure point control tactics (PPCT management systems) Goju ryu Karate (6 years) Japanese Ju jitsu (6 years) Tai kwon do (1 year) Shaolin kung fu (on and off for 6 years) But these are mostly striking arts, I dont really want to rely on PPCT to control the struggling crack head, our use of force restrictions are (no head strikes because of HIV, and no neck restraints because of the danger to the trachia) So back to my initial question (before my rant) Do you guys have any favorite techniques you use to control the suspect with the minimum amount of force and can you please describe them, Also what do you do when you encounter resistance from the escort position ? I would assume you strike to the lateral femoral, or a straight arm bar, goose neck come along, I am open for suggestions.

Please contribute all suggestions welcome
thank you for your time and sorry for the lengthy post
Ben Wallace

[1stWatch]

Basic come-a-long grasps, straight wristlock, straight armbar, knee drop armbar, figure eight hold, single wing lock, wing lock takedown, single leg scoop takedown, standing angular ankle sweep, pak-sao, larp-sao, jut-sao, tan-sao, taun-sao, knee thrusts to specific areas such as solar plexus and peronial nerve, leg scissors locks, palm pressing.

Specific no-no moves around here include punching, especially with closed fists, boxing stances, high body and full circular judo-type throws, and most kicks including the popular round kicks and front hooking kicks and side kicks. Do those and kiss the career goodbye. I have been able to get away with a front thrust kick before that was designed to knock someone down but not damage organs though.

[histfan71]

I like the carotid restraint myself. The college PD I worked for considered the carotid restraint controlling force so I was able to use it pretty freely. LAPD, however, put the carotid restraint in with deadly force so I never got to "choke someone out" while I worked there.

The best counter to resistance from the escort position is the hair-pull-takedown. To make sure we are all on the same page, to me the escort position is one hand on the suspect's wrist and one hand on his elbow. If the suspect starts to resist take your hand off the suspect's elbow, but keep your other hand controlling the suspect's wrist. Then you simply grab a handful of hair with the hand you took off the suspect's elbow and yank straight down. If the suspect is bald or has very short hair that you cannot grab, reach around the suspect's head and grasp onto his forehead and yank. If done correctly, the suspect should end up flat on his back and you should still have control of his wrist. From there, roll the suspect onto his stomach and then handcuff. The second-best counter is the arm-bar-takedown.

[jakeslife]

Soft open hand--> hard empty hand--> OC/CS-->Taser-->Blunt Force-->Blam Blam

I always try to maximize space if I feel unsafe, always watch their hands. Things that are basic but you'd be surprised how often folks forget them when they need to use them.

Whatever you do, just don't hit me in the face. It's the only thing I got goin' right now!

[astorms]

Very important to remember the reactionary gap. If your 'spidey sense' is telling you the guy is gonna wanna fight, or run, be ready. If your too close, the only thing you'll be able to do is a pressure point, which if done incorrectly, is more annoying than painful.

Wrist locks don't work on everyone. I have been involved with suspects whose hands touch their forearms without even flinching. This is where the almighty distraction technique comes in handy. If they are not responding to a arm bar, wrist lock, etc, then hit em with a knee to the thigh, hamstring or inner thigh. This will give you those precious few seconds to change tactics and go for another method which may be more effective.

Keep your tools handy. The butt-end of my asp or streamlight is much more effective in putting pressure on a chosen pressure point than my thumb.

You can know all the PPCT and martial arts in the world. It's how well you use the skills.

[histfan71]

You can know all the PPCT and martial arts in the world. It's how well you use the skills.

Amen astorms. I try to practice my arrest and control techniques at least once a week. If you do not use these skills then they diminish over time.

Astorms was also correct when he said to always be prepared to transition to another hold, or technique, or another level of force. This does not come naturally and can only be done smoothly with a lot of practice. Not all control holds work on all people.

[1stWatch]

Wrist locks don't work on everyone. I have been involved with suspects whose hands touch their forearms without even flinching. This is where the almighty distraction technique comes in handy. If they are not responding to a arm bar, wrist lock, etc, then hit em with a knee to the thigh, hamstring or inner thigh. This will give you those precious few seconds to change tactics and go for another method which may be more effective...

...You can know all the PPCT and martial arts in the world. It's how well you use the skills.

I really had trouble using a wristlock to put a real combative subject on the ground. I found it only really works after you have the subject off balance.

How well you use it, exactly. Theoretical knowledge is useless compared to physical knowledge.

[Canuck]

how big are you? physically overpowering with a straight armbar is all I have ever needed bouncing and I've never got in a physical altercation working straight up guard work.

I'm 6'5 270lbs.

[N. A. Corbier]

how big are you? physically overpowering with a straight armbar is all I have ever needed bouncing and I've never got in a physical altercation working straight up guard work.

I'm 6'5 270lbs.

I've used the straight armbar without remembering to close the suspect's arm to my center of mass. Next thing you know, the suspect rolls out of it, or braces.

Straight up guard work is very different for some officers. Some of us are required to basically be police officers on our site, performing arrests and removals as the "first responder" to all criminal complaints on site. In that case, your going to get into a physical altercation. I've gotten in to quite a few of them, having to remove drunks, protect people from attack, and make arrests for felonies.

[Canuck]

he claims 2 months experience and you're defending him, this site is a joke and I won't be positing here anymore.

good luck wannabes.

[N. A. Corbier]

he claims 2 months experience and you're defending him, this site is a joke and I won't be positing here anymore.

good luck wannabes.
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Straight up guard work is very different for some officers. Some of us are required to basically be police officers on our site, performing arrests and removals as the "first responder" to all criminal complaints on site. In that case, your going to get into a physical altercation. I've gotten in to quite a few of them, having to remove drunks, protect people from attack, and make arrests for felonies.

Your statement was, "I've never got in a physical altercation working straight up guard work."

I'm not actually defending Ben over there, merely pointing out the cultural differences in the profession. We carry weapons down here. We are tasked with protection of people, and in some cases, enforcement of law.

But, for some reason, you've taken to being offended by someone pointing those differences out. So, you lash out with an ad hominem attack against the site, and those on it. If things aren't how they are where you are, obviously its wrong, I guess.

For all your talk of people skills, you have failed to demonstrate them yourself. Instead of asserting your position, you think this is some kind of arguement, and that people are taking sides.

[Mr. Security]

he claims 2 months experience and you're defending him, this site is a joke and I won't be positing here anymore.

good luck wannabes.

The word is spelled p o s t i n g. If you want to take your marbles and play somewhere else just because you can't have your way, then go ahead. I recommend O.com. Have fun! :D

[Tennsix]

The word is spelled p o s t i n g. If you want to take your marbles and play somewhere else just because you can't have your way, then go ahead. I recommend O.com. Have fun! :D
Mr. Security, you are wrong for sending that guy to o.com... :D

[Mr. Security]

Mr. Security, you are wrong for sending that guy to o.com... :D

Sorry. I thought they could "help" him with his attitude. :D

[N. A. Corbier]

Mr. Security, you are wrong for sending that guy to o.com... :D

No, no, they'll love him there.

[crankloud]

All techniques are good if practiced. Last resort, find the small dip in your upper sternum (chest) just below your adams apple. Push in gently then straight down. This really hurts when done properly and i have been assured it causes no permanent damage, it will make most people let go of you. try it(on yourself).

[Tennsix]

Sternal Notch. Not too gently or it won't work. Not really for brealing holds but anything will do if someone has you like that. It is better for making a person back off if they jump in yout face. A sharp heel (of the hand) strike with the middle finger in the notch is a good attention getter.

[HotelSecurity]

Sternal Notch. Not too gently or it won't work. Not really for brealing holds but anything will do if someone has you like that. It is better for making a person back off if they jump in yout face. A sharp heel (of the hand) strike with the middle finger in the notch is a good attention getter.

Used to do the sternal rub when working as a medical first responder. Lets you know pretty fast if the drunk is faking being unconscious or not :D

[Tennsix]

Used to do the sternal rub when working as a medical first responder. Lets you know pretty fast if the drunk is faking being unconscious or not :D
Yep. :) Try lighty touching a closed eye lid. If it flutters they are probably faking. Another trick is to raise an arm over their face and drop it. If the are truely unconscious the arm will fall on their face. If they are faking the will let the arm fall along side their head.

[HotelSecurity]

Another trick is to raise an arm over their face and drop it. If the are truely unconscious the arm will fall on their face. If they are faking the will let the arm fall along side their head.

That one was my favourite!! Embarassing sometimes when you are sure he is faking & there's a really loud "slap" as the hand does a direct hit on the face :o

[crankloud]

We use the corner of a tissue to tickle the inside of a nose mainly on children. Man it's annoying.

[1stWatch]

All techniques are good if practiced. Last resort, find the small dip in your upper sternum (chest) just below your adams apple. Push in gently then straight down. This really hurts when done properly and i have been assured it causes no permanent damage, it will make most people let go of you. try it(on yourself).

That sternal notch pressure point does not work on me. The instructors tried it for nearly an hour. Some of those points just don't work on some people.

[N. A. Corbier]

I've become more attuned to joint manipulation than pain compliance, mainly from seeing stuff at SPE and MMA practitioners. The good part is, it does not matter if a pressure point does not work on the target, the human joints are nearly identical on everyone. The general population is not able to defeat a fulcrum'ed arm bar, or another form of joint lockup. They may be free to strike at you while doing it, but at least one limb is immobilized, and is a leverage point for sweeps and throws.

Downside: you have to practice this stuff. Consistantly.

[Charger]

...If the suspect is bald or has very short hair that you cannot grab, reach around the suspect's head and grasp onto his forehead and yank....

Actually, what works even better is to reach around his head, and place a single finger across his upper lip.. Then pull up/back using his nose as the control spot... Hurts like hell... ;) Of course, my DT instructor was a sadistic kinda guy, so... lol

[Mr. Security]

If the guy is pretending to be unconscious, play along and say: "Oh my goodness! This guy isn't breathing properly. I'm going to have to cut an opening in the windpipe to help."

Start swabbing the throat area w/ alcohol. I'll bet he regains "consciousness."
:D

[N. A. Corbier]

If the guy is pretending to be unconscious, play along and say: "Oh my goodness! This guy isn't breathing properly. I'm going to have to cut an opening in the windpipe to help."

Start swabbing the throat area w/ alcohol. I'll bet he regains "consciousness."
:D

Smelling salts also work. :)

[1stWatch]

I've become more attuned to joint manipulation than pain compliance, mainly from seeing stuff at SPE and MMA practitioners. The good part is, it does not matter if a pressure point does not work on the target, the human joints are nearly identical on everyone. The general population is not able to defeat a fulcrum'ed arm bar, or another form of joint lockup. They may be free to strike at you while doing it, but at least one limb is immobilized, and is a leverage point for sweeps and throws.

Downside: you have to practice this stuff. Consistantly.

Actually for any skill to work for you, you have to practice it consistently. That is one major area of lacking security officers generally have. Many learn skills in theory, but they don't practice it to be able to put it to use effectively.
Their concepts at spe are sound. No amount of poking around on pressure points can do the job as well as solid wrestling skills. Having said that however, the skills need to be able to work swiftly. One swift lockup should be enough to put the subject on the floor and into restraint position. It is not advantageous to be tied up in extensive grappling positions for five or ten minutes.

[1stWatch]

Actually, what works even better is to reach around his head, and place a single finger across his upper lip.. Then pull up/back using his nose as the control spot... Hurts like hell... ;) Of course, my DT instructor was a sadistic kinda guy, so... lol

My variation of that is to use a fish-hooking hand position under the chin. That makes the grip more solid and it's guaranteed to work since it involves joint manipulation rather than pain compliance.

[Ten32]

If the guy is pretending to be unconscious, play along and say: "Oh my goodness! This guy isn't breathing properly. I'm going to have to cut an opening in the windpipe to help."

Start swabbing the throat area w/ alcohol. I'll bet he regains "consciousness."
:D

That's great! ...But you might get sued for scaring the living heck out of him.

[1stWatch]

That's great! ...But you might get sued for scaring the living heck out of him.

It's funny how in this day and age you're more likely to be sued for scaring someone than laying hands on someone.

[1stWatch]

I've become more attuned to joint manipulation than pain compliance, mainly from seeing stuff at SPE and MMA practitioners. The good part is, it does not matter if a pressure point does not work on the target, the human joints are nearly identical on everyone. The general population is not able to defeat a fulcrum'ed arm bar, or another form of joint lockup. They may be free to strike at you while doing it, but at least one limb is immobilized, and is a leverage point for sweeps and throws.

Downside: you have to practice this stuff. Consistantly.

The key success to getting joint locks and take-downs to work, to place the opponent in a position of submission, is to have a sense of the person's balance. Most will not go down to the ground if in a stable position, especially if the person is heavier (90% of the time in my case). Feeling out where the center of gravity is will let you know which method to employ and when.

[Mr. Security]

That's great! ...But you might get sued for scaring the living heck out of him.

You have a point, and with my good fortune, the guy would probably have a cardiac event. I can see the headline now:

Guard threatens man with a tracheotomy; has heart attack!

[N. A. Corbier]

The key success to getting joint locks and take-downs to work, to place the opponent in a position of submission, is to have a sense of the person's balance. Most will not go down to the ground if in a stable position, especially if the person is heavier (90% of the time in my case). Feeling out where the center of gravity is will let you know which method to employ and when.

True. Part of the joint lock must be bringing the person off balance. The natural reaction to push or pull against someone grabbing you can come into play here. But, if they have a stable footing, and you don't, the BG isn't being taken down -- you are.

[aka Bull]

True. Part of the joint lock must be bringing the person off balance. The natural reaction to push or pull against someone grabbing you can come into play here. But, if they have a stable footing, and you don't, the BG isn't being taken down -- you are.

To get a person off balance when starting a joint lock technique our defensive tactics teach the officer to use a knee strike to the Common Peronal Nerve Motor Point on the outer leg (the most common place available to strike). This accomplishes two things - 1) mental distraction to resisting the joint lock and 2) motor dysfunction to the leg causing balance displacement to overcoming physical resistence to the technique. Hitting that nerve motor point will usually cause the person to collapse downward - making the rest of the technique with the takedown that much easier for the officer.

[1stWatch]

To get a person off balance when starting a joint lock technique our defensive tactics teach the officer to use a knee strike to the Common Peronal Nerve Motor Point on the outer leg (the most common place available to strike). This accomplishes two things - 1) mental distraction to resisting the joint lock and 2) motor dysfunction to the leg causing balance displacement to overcoming physical resistence to the technique. Hitting that nerve motor point will usually cause the person to collapse downward - making the rest of the technique with the takedown that much easier for the officer.

That method is what we call "mixing up the computer" in kickboxing groups. The idea is to use a low level attack on the shin or peroneal nerve as a distraction to make the opponent's focus shift to that in order to make an opening on the upper body. The key here when applying a grappling hold is to be able to feel the other person's sense of balance while applying the hold, while in physical contact, which is also known as "sensitivity". Each person's resistance varies a bit, so successful off-balancing varies. If the person doesn't have an over-commitment of balance to one leg or the other it will be difficult to take the person down.

[aphilpot]

In our hospital we use basic "pain compliance" techniques. Most discussed in the prior posts (wrist locks, arm bars).

Like many others on this site, the added dynamic is the fact that most of our clients are crack/meth heads that go snake whenever you approach. Half the work is getting into a non-threatening position so you can "lay the smack down".

Our officers are constantly training/upgrading their self defense either by what is offered by the company or most out of self interest outside of work. The key is staying sharp when not having to use this part of your skillset for awhile and then having to put it into play within seconds of being involved in an incident (Code White in hospital code).

[aka Bull]

..... The key is staying sharp when not having to use this part of your skillset for awhile and then having to put it into play within seconds of being involved in an incident (Code White in hospital code).

I am one of our departments defensive tactics instructors. We teach our officers to spend that drive to work, or when standing around with nothing to do, to visiualize different tactics we teach, be it a brachial stun, getting a person into a transport wrist lock, whatever...to move those tactics from your long term memory (your hard drive so to speak) into short term memory (ram), which decreases reaction time - vital since we all know it takes longer to react than to act.

I personally review my most common moves on my drive in, get them fresh into my mind.

[aphilpot]

I am one of our departments defensive tactics instructors. We teach our officers to spend that drive to work, or when standing around with nothing to do, to visiualize different tactics we teach, be it a brachial stun, getting a person into a transport wrist lock, whatever...to move those tactics from your long term memory (your hard drive so to speak) into short term memory (ram), which decreases reaction time - vital since we all know it takes longer to react than to act.

I personally review my most common moves on my drive in, get them fresh into my mind.

Great idea Bull. I will mention that to my crew at our next staff meeting. I always preach to keep "practicing" but it certainly doesn't hurt to play it over in your mind sometimes to keep fresh.

[dla4122]

MK-IV Pepperspray! All I need. :D