Fox or Def-Tec

[Bizcuits]

I ordered some 3oz MK-4 CS from Def Tec, Stream "shipment" hasn't come in yet though, and today during my Pepper Spray course the instructor was talking about FOX and telling use it was really good. 5+ Million SHU's, and Def-Tec CS is only 1-Million SHUs.

Was hoping to get someones opinion, obviously the hotter stuffs gonna be more effective, but is it more effective by much? Also I notice the Def Tec somes with a pepper blend. Whats the actually pepper used?

As to the situations I could be found using this stuff in? I drive a security patrol car around apartments all night, so its a mixture of outdoors, hallways, and apartments.

Would appericate any info on Def Tec vs FOX.

We're only as good as our gear.

Thanks.
Bizcuits

[Charger]

I've said it before and I'll say it again.. I stand behind my Punch II.... But I HAVE heard very good things about Fox... Not sure on Deftec, but I can tell you that if it's only 1 mil SHUs you need to find something else... To get the most effective OC spray, find one that has a SHU rating of at LEAST 2.5 million, but preferrably with a low percentage like 5%.... That means it will hit harder initially and cause more pain, but the effects wear off quicker.. (45mins-1hr, compared to 3-4 hours)

As far as situations go, you simply never know... And I HOPE that your OC instructor was wise enough to USE the spray on YOU during the training... A key part of being able to use OC on duty is KNOWING first hand how it will affect your performance in a rough situation....

Anyways, hope this helps!

[1stWatch]

Fox has 5 milliion SHU's, but only has 5% pepper content. That means it will burn like hell, but not for very long. All the police supply stores that were carrying it a few years ago in my area stopped carrying it and now try to convince you not to order it if you go in and try to.
I'm not sure about the other brand, but if it's an oc/cs gas blend, make sure it's legal to carry in your state before you try. It will also mount a challenge when decontaminating a suspect, as the oc will wash out but the cs will burn more when water is applied.
When working apartments I am the biggest fan of the stream can. Cone is pretty effective, but only at a very close range. A fogger is pretty useless since you're outdoors the whole time.

[N. A. Corbier]

Defense Technologies uses a food grade (USP) blend of OC from various peppers. This is their selling point, that the formula is completely food grade, and certified under USP.

Those stupid yellow cans of First Defense (One half of the DefTec Brand) are weak initially, but will build up after a few seconds. You may not have that long, however.

The second type of the DefTec brand, "Mace Brand International," or simply Mace brand, is OK in my book. It works, but I perfer Sabre Red.

[Mr. Security]

Defense Technologies uses a food grade (USP) blend of OC from various peppers. This is their selling point, that the formula is completely food grade, and certified under USP.......

I think I had some of that at Taco Bell. :D :p

[Michael Ledgerwood]

Where I work we use a brand of OC made by Top Cop. It is 10% OC formula. I am not sure what the SHU is but I know it burns like hell. We are required to get sprayed as part of our certification and they only spry a very little on us (not like the police academies that practically drown you in the stuff) and even with the little amount the use it burns your whole face. When I got sprayed I requested to be sprayed in the forehead and even though the OC was only on my forehead my entire face was effected. I had never heard of this brand of OC until I came to work for this company but I highly recommend it. I have also used and been sprayed with Counter Assault, which IMO is highly effective as well.

[N. A. Corbier]

I think I had some of that at Taco Bell. :D :p

I've done it. Seriously. I sprayed some on some Taco Bell (chili cheese burrito) and ate it. What people don't realize is that you swallow, and it goes away to be destroyed by your stomach. :)

It impressed two co-workers. I thought it was hilarious. I learned that from another officer who used to eat OC because he was insane.

[bigdog]

[QUOTE=Bizcuits]I ordered some 3oz MK-4 CS from Def Tec, Stream "shipment" hasn't come in yet though, and today during my Pepper Spray course the instructor was talking about FOX and telling use it was really good. 5+ Million SHU's, and Def-Tec CS is only 1-Million SHUs.

i notice you use the terms oc and cs to describe the same chemical when in fact oc and cs are two different chemicals.

CS gas is a tear gas. oc is an inflammatory agent.

[N. A. Corbier]

[QUOTE=Bizcuits]I ordered some 3oz MK-4 CS from Def Tec, Stream "shipment" hasn't come in yet though, and today during my Pepper Spray course the instructor was talking about FOX and telling use it was really good. 5+ Million SHU's, and Def-Tec CS is only 1-Million SHUs.

i notice you use the terms oc and cs to describe the same chemical when in fact oc and cs are two different chemicals.

CS gas is a tear gas. oc is an inflammatory agent.

Good point. OC is a natural inflammatory agent. CS is a lacrmator, an agent designed to produce tearing. This is why most people say OC is worse than CS, due to the fact that OC inflames all exposed areas. CS only affects tearing and the eyes.

[Mr. Security]

......i notice you use the terms oc and cs to describe the same chemical when in fact oc and cs are two different chemicals.

CS gas is a tear gas. oc is an inflammatory agent.

OK, OK already. "Chemical agents"... :D

[Mr. Security]

I've done it. Seriously. I sprayed some on some Taco Bell (chili cheese burrito) and ate it. What people don't realize is that you swallow, and it goes away to be destroyed by your stomach. :)

It impressed two co-workers. I thought it was hilarious. I learned that from another officer who used to eat OC because he was insane.

"Would you like mild, hot, extra hot, or OC with that order?" :p

[jakeslife]

Fox can be a liability. It's 5.3 million SHU, where DefTec is about 1 million. DefTec gets the job done.

[Bizcuits]

Appericate the info, looks like I'll just have to try the Def Tec on myself. As the instructor we had didn't spray us.


As far as using OC and CS to describe the same chemical I don't see where I did that, just asked the opinion of the 2 brands and if anyone had experience with Def Tec, Also jakesLife brought up a point I was worried about which is Liablity, and why I don't want to use something thats "Over Kill"


OC Is the pepper spray "organic" right? and CS is Tear Gas "chemical"... The Def Tec I ordered said it was CS with a blend of Pepper. Meaning a mixture of both?? Or am I missing something?

http://www.copsplus.com/prodnum4451.php <- What i actually ordered.

[jakeslife]

When I was trained I was sprayed with this stuff.

http://www.qmuniforms.com/itemdy00.asp?T1=S69+MK4&Cat=Law+Enforcement%2EPersonal+Protection

I was sprayed with the stream and foam, two seconds, on the forehead. Fox is reputed as a great brand, which it is, and it will definitely do the job. If a civil suit pops up, they will attempt to say that if the least amount of force will do the job, why use the most?

BTW, it says LE only, but they sell to security as well. DefTec is definitely the way to go. This specific type is all organic (our instructor made us spray it on a tortilla chip and eat it), food grade ingredients, and it's water based. It's standard issue for many departments. It's sad to say, but if you hit someone with this, and it doesn't work, you have to escalate.

[Charger]

^ I'm not personally familiar with that brand/product, but based on their description I would say it's probably a CS/OC mix...

The only cases of liability I've EVER heard of involved the 'cruel & unusual punishment' routine, based on exposure that lasted for hours & hours on end, partially because the spray used was 15% oc or higher, AND because no aid/treatment was given to the suspect.... Remember, get spray that has a high SHU (heat level), but LOW percentage so it hits hard & fast, but doesn't last long.... And remember to flush your subject's eyes & render aid as soon as he becomes cooperative.. (or goes into custody, whatever comes first... lol)

[bigdog]

bad thing about the oc/cs blend is when you put cool water on the subjects face it helps with the oc decontamination but it makes the cs burn worse.

[Mr. Security]

bad thing about the oc/cs blend is when you put cool water on the subjects face it helps with the oc decontamination but it makes the cs burn worse.

What's the best way to decontaminate CS?

[bigdog]

Decontamination of CS

Being extremely persistent, CS causes a severe area decontamination problem. Particles disseminated by any of the standard means of dispersion will adhere to the person, clothing, furnishings, or fixtures for long periods. Humid conditions will cause the odor and irritant effect to linger indefinitely.

Decontamination is achieved by using an alkaline solution. A solution of water and 5% sodium bisulfite is usually employed for decontamination.

from zarc international

[Mr. Security]

Nasty stuff :( No wonder it choked me so much when I inhaled some while disposing of an outdated canister.

[locknid]

I have personally used both def-tec and fox labs, currently carry fox labs. The def-tec i had was the foam, it shot only about 3 feet, very weak spray and the times I did use it the subject still was able to fight for a little bit. I have used the fox labs once and the guy hit the ground super fast. it decontaminates in about 20-30min too.