Advanced Firearms Training

[Sierra 1]

All-

I am curious about the amount of advanced firearms and tactics training attended by members of the forum. Interests in the type of gear, pay, and policies appear to be a priority. Just curious........

[N. A. Corbier]

All-

I am curious about the amount of advanced firearms and tactics training attended by members of the forum. Interests in the type of gear, pay, and policies appear to be a priority. Just curious........

Find places that will give reputable training to private citizens for advanced firearms and tactics training.

So far, only places I know of are Gunsite, any NRA Security Pistol Instructor, NRA Sponsored Courses. Most courses I have seen have strict disclaimers noting that you must be a sworn LEO of a PUBLIC agency to attend such courses.

This may be a "we only want us at the course" mentality, which the industry caters to, however. The us vs. them mentality pervades any tactical instruction series.

[Sierra 1]

N.A. Corbier,

I am curious about the type of training attended by members (excluding state mandated/required training). I am a Gunsite student (began in the late 80's while in the service) and aware of reputable schools to attend. I would like to know opinions of training attended, where the training was conducted (school), and if it is a priority.

[OccamsRazor]

I've done basic SWAT, DDM, and Patrol Rifle. I was supposed to go to Patrol Rifle instructor, but left that agency prior to the class. I've also done the MEB Instructor class (basically useless), and Taser, but I draw the line at OCAT instructor. I HATE THAT STUFF.

In the private side of the house, all I've done was the basic state and federal firearms certs (using the ICE-QT targets), and re-certs in OCAT and MEB (again, useless).

I'd like to see some more counter-terror stuff offered, both public and private. As it stands, all I really have for that is WMD courses that lacked any hands-on training.

Of course, I'd also like to do advanced DDM and SWAT, but we'll see... :D

[Sierra 1]

wilrobnson,

I also completed the MEB instructor and OCAT. The ASP instructor was much more informative and useful in my days of LE. Thanks for the info-

[Sierra 1]

Wilrbnson,

Can you advise what DHS contractor you now work for?

[OccamsRazor]

Wilrobnson,

Can you advise what DHS contractor you now work for?

I'd really rather not, since you never know who's on here, and apparently we're going to be changing companies soon (you stay with the contract, no matter who the company providing the service is, unless one of these days they go in-house).

Check your PM.

[N. A. Corbier]

N.A. Corbier,

I am curious about the type of training attended by members (excluding state mandated/required training). I am a Gunsite student (began in the late 80's while in the service) and aware of reputable schools to attend. I would like to know opinions of training attended, where the training was conducted (school), and if it is a priority.

See, that's what I'm referring to. Most security practitioners don't have the ability to take tactical courses. They're usually denied access due to not being part of a public law enforcement agency.

I think I was asking, "where the hell are people getting their training," if they are getting advanced training, and who's paying the tab. I notice that wilrobinson got his training through an LE agency, and then through a DHS contractor (Which they can pull out the DOD/DHS cert and DOD/DHS will go, "We're sending them.")

I'm interested to know this, too. Especially in light of "advanced training" being incompatible with the "big three" company's concepts of protection.

[OccamsRazor]

I notice that wilrobinson got his training through an LE agency, and then through a DHS contractor (Which they can pull out the DOD/DHS cert and DOD/DHS will go, "We're sending them.")

There's only one 'i' in there :D

I got the all that high-speed stuff as a deputy and a cop, when I went private the company's attitude was "Hey, that's nice...We don't care".

The contract here specifies what training you do, down to the hours and locations and even the types of ammo at the range.

[histfan71]

I've also done the MEB Instructor class (basically useless)

Why do you think that the MEB Instructor class was useless. I got a lot out of it.

[N. A. Corbier]

There's only one 'i' in there :D

I got the all that high-speed stuff as a deputy and a cop, when I went private the company's attitude was "Hey, that's nice...We don't care".

The contract here specifies what training you do, down to the hours and locations and even the types of ammo at the range.

There's a local outfit that refused to hire me because I have 28 hours of firearms training from Florida in REVOLVER. Having that on your resume, damn, your lucky. No warm body outfit would ever touch you, man. :)

JimmyHat: See, that's the crazy part about it. Few, and I mean few, states are providing training for this stuff. You know we can do that up here, in Wisconsin, so long as we can pass a basic .223 course, we can carry them? Its just firearms certification, no tactical training required!

[EH126]

I could go on for hours about the Military CQB training I was fortunate enough to receive as a Troop, but those courses are exclusive and hard to sometimes project into private sector S.O.P's.

As far as "we" are concerned, Virginia has a great course for Private-types, and we carry the training as an actual "certification" on our Security Registration I.D's. The Advanced Firearms Course provided by several different certified training schools. Course includes:

Classroom and Range safety
Handgun Marksmanship Fundamentals
Practical Handgun Handling Techniques
Cover and Concealment
Law Enforcement Shotgun
Shotgun Marksmanship Fundamentals
Practical Shotgun Handling Techniques
Practical Shotgun Handling
Low Light Training
Liability in Training / Lack of Training
Live Fire Exercises / Safety / Malfunctions / Shoot, Don't Shoot
Proper Care and Maintenance of the Weapon
Civil Liability of the Use of Firearms
Criminal Liability of the Use of Firearms
Weapon Retention
Deadly Force
Justifiable Deadly Force
Range Safety
Decision-Making for the Personal Protection Specialist

40 hours not including range time. Well worth it, but it's beneficial to research the school and it's instructors first.

Completion of this course is mandatory prior to obtaining a Personal Protection Specialist certification.

"Security Rifle" is the new buzzword in Virginia. Although the basic operator course is far from advanced, it's in the early stages and I've heard that an advanced course is being considered for the near future.

__________________________________________________ _______________

It would be nice if we had some state mandated standards here in Michigan. That way S/Os could consistantly have standards to be armed and carry their weapons while incuring less risk of misuse.

[N. A. Corbier]

__________________________________________________ _______________

It would be nice if we had some state mandated standards here in Michigan. That way S/Os could consistantly have standards to be armed and carry their weapons while incuring less risk of misuse.
Isn't it "I have a concealed weapons permit, therefore I can carry a gun while performing security job?" up there?

Ie: Absolutely no security-specific training, just the citizen CCW course. I knew a few states are like that.

[Echos13]

[QUOTE=N. A. Corbier]There's a local outfit that refused to hire me because I have 28 hours of firearms training from Florida in REVOLVER. Having that on your resume, damn, your lucky. No warm body outfit would ever touch you, man. :)

I have been looking into some part time stuff again. And perhaps maybe by the end of this year some of us may have to find full time. And yea, most of the WBC will not even talk to me because of my training both from past LEO days and some extra training as an SEO. I stopped putting that stuff down in applications. It's amazing that they call you if you just state your an average experienced guard looking for an unarmed post job. Hell, I stopped submitting my resume to some of them. They do indeed have that attitude as WR said. "Oh, yea. Nice resume. We don't care about that stuff".

[jmaccauley]

It's interesting to see so many private security professionals wanting to get the advanced training while their employers could care less. Interesting and sad at the same time. I provide a class known as Close Quarters Confrontation Responses that is geared towards immediate threats against unarmed or armed agents. The majority of the students foot the bill themselves. I'm encouraged by the fact that the agents/officers themselves want the advanced training. There are actually quite a few training outfits offering security and private citizen training classes lately. Like anything else, there are good and bad and I would caution you to check the reputation and references of the providers before plunking down your hard earned dough.

[Sierra 1]

Jimmyhat,

You are correct about the "tactical" gear issue. With the war on terror and all the spending on specialized units, LE and security want to look like the warriors on TV.
The thigh holster issue- they were developed several years ago for the purpose of units that wore heavy/large amounts of body armor and gear on the upper part of the body/torso. Because the gear was mission specific and necessary, the traditional belt holster made transitioning to the handgun difficult. The thigh holster/mounting the holster lower on the body became the answer. This holster still serves the same purpose-they are not designed for standard LE/security work. Problems with retention of the handgun make this obvious.
Standard gear for the "street" includes a reliable/servicable handgun (9mm and up), 3 factory magazines (sig, glock, kimber, wilson combat-not USA mags or other knock-offs), factory tested ammunition, a serviceable belt mounted holster (SSIIIs are nice-However, any type of dependable holster that you regularly train with will do), and a dependable flashlight (surefire, streamlight). This sounds costly, but some of this gear can be purchased at a discount do to the competition that all gear companies are faced with.
I strayed from my original post, but this equipment is mission essential and necessary for any type of training.
I have also experienced the "overqualified/overtrained problem". It is a sad day in this country when our industry would choose underqualified warm bodies over motivated, trained personnel.

[Bill Warnock]

I have been looking into some part time stuff again. And perhaps maybe by the end of this year some of us may have to find full time. And yea, most of the WBC will not even talk to me because of my training both from past LEO days and some extra training as an SEO. I stopped putting that stuff down in applications. It's amazing that they call you if you just state your an average experienced guard looking for an unarmed post job. Hell, I stopped submitting my resume to some of them. They do indeed have that attitude as WR said. "Oh, yea. Nice resume. We don't care about that stuff".

Echos13 and Jimmyhat: Keep at it. You are both self starters with at least three years of previous sworn peace officer experience, graduate of a recognized civilian or military law enforcement/security forces academy, then may I suggest you go to your local US Marshals Service Office and get information on becoming a Court Security Officer. You will be working for a security firm contracted by the US Marshals Service, pay is good and they encourage training, training and more training. If you and others reading this post are sharp, clean noses and a desire to protect the federal judiciary, by all means apply.
The job is not all peaches and cream. You will be the first line of defense for courthouse screening and other duties, some have been murdered in the performance of these duties. For you who follow the Christian tradition, Jesus once said, "Greater love hath no man than to lay down his life for a friend." Friend, all of mankind.
Enjoy the day,
Bill

[Sierra 1]

Jimmyhat,

The money is in the higher-end, government contracted (security) private side of the fence. I left a large metropolitan police department and took a job with one of the big three. The money and benefits make-up for the boredom and normal, government regulated rules and standards.

[OccamsRazor]

The lessons-learned factor here is enormous. Break it down to what you need to survive, and return-to-base uninjured. Knee pads, hydro-pack, lots of ammo pouches, first aid kit with blood-clot agent, E&E kit (power bar, compass/map, purification tabs, etc.) Brain Bucket and chest protector. Simple and effective.

These fancy thigh-holsters that every Security Officer wants to wear (and I'm guilty myself) means only one thing: You ain't planning to walk very far!!!


Hey, I carry one of those 'battle packs' that contains Quik-Clot and bandaging stuff to every site I go to. I've been aggressively unimpressed with the response times from the local FDs and EMS for injury calls, and as a cop, I've watched someone bleed out while waiting for EMS, with direct pressure not doing a damn thing. I asked the local ER to give me training on the proper use of the stuff, which they were happy to do. And I've had co-workers ask me why I carry the stuff, as folks entering the buildings are weapons-screened. In any encounter, even with a naked person, there is still a firearm present...yours. Some guys forget this, or brush it off, I guess not figuring on providing first aid to someone they've just shot?

As for the thigh holsters, I agree. There's one federal officer I see on a regular basis who wears one, but doesn't carry a lot on his belt, isn't carrying a long arm, and isn't wearing external armor...He just thinks it "looks cool".
He wasn't happy when I called it a 'jackass holster'.

[N. A. Corbier]

Hey, I carry one of those 'battle packs' that contains Quik-Clot and bandaging stuff to every site I go to. I've been aggressively unimpressed with the response times from the local FDs and EMS for injury calls, and as a cop, I've watched someone bleed out while waiting for EMS, with direct pressure not doing a damn thing. I asked the local ER to give me training on the proper use of the stuff, which they were happy to do. And I've had co-workers ask me why I carry the stuff, as folks entering the buildings are weapons-screened. In any encounter, even with a naked person, there is still a firearm present...yours. Some guys forget this, or brush it off, I guess not figuring on providing first aid to someone they've just shot?

As for the thigh holsters, I agree. There's one federal officer I see on a regular basis who wears one, but doesn't carry a lot on his belt, isn't carrying a long arm, and isn't wearing external armor...He just thinks it "looks cool".
He wasn't happy when I called it a 'jackass holster'.

Looks cool and functions correctly are two different things. He will learn this, one day. Unfortunately, he will not see his own OMDP page.

I have always liked Quik-Clot. It could be yourself your dumping it into. It could be one of your co-workers. It could be a kid who just impailed himself on a swing set. It could be someone you shot at.

If you are rendering first aid to the suspect you just shot, it will be harder for the claimant's attorney to state you "maliciously shot him and used excessive force trying to kill him." If you were trying to kill him, why are you working on his ass, then?

As far as the training goes: Companies aren't going to pay for these things unless the client demands it, in writing, in the contract. It cuts into their bottom line. It is dismissed as: "I have trained (by me) observers, not police or military. They don't need any of that, all they need to know how to do is write the numbers zero through twelve (maybe twenty-four), the letters A, P, M, and the words "patrolled," "all clear," and "quiet."

[jimmyhat]

Hey, I carry one of those 'battle packs' that contains Quik-Clot and bandaging stuff to every site I go to. I've been aggressively unimpressed with the response times from the local FDs and EMS for injury calls, and as a cop, I've watched someone bleed out while waiting for EMS, with direct pressure not doing a damn thing. I asked the local ER to give me training on the proper use of the stuff, which they were happy to do. And I've had co-workers ask me why I carry the stuff, as folks entering the buildings are weapons-screened. In any encounter, even with a naked person, there is still a firearm present...yours. Some guys forget this, or brush it off, I guess not figuring on providing first aid to someone they've just shot?
Probably not a bad company S.O.P for all of it's S/O's to carry some sort of rapid-aid pack. Aside from being able to add some first response to our clients/customers, it's also for self preservation. My colleagues know where I keep my go-pack, and how to use it's contents. Every S/O should carry this gear in the same place, be it on-person or in a staging area, so that responders who might be coming to your own aid know where to reach for and utilize that gear.

Note: If you stop to render aid for an injured Troop, use his/her aid pack first. Save yours for yourself should you need it.

Managers/Supervisors are often quick to implement the "We are not rescue personnel, and we do not carry rescue gear" policy. Just tell em' "this ain't for them, it's for me!"

[Bill Warnock]

Looks cool and functions correctly are two different things. He will learn this, one day. Unfortunately, he will not see his own OMDP page.

I have always liked Quik-Clot. It could be yourself your dumping it into. It could be one of your co-workers. It could be a kid who just impailed himself on a swing set. It could be someone you shot at.

If you are rendering first aid to the suspect you just shot, it will be harder for the claimant's attorney to state you "maliciously shot him and used excessive force trying to kill him." If you were trying to kill him, why are you working on his ass, then?

As far as the training goes: Companies aren't going to pay for these things unless the client demands it, in writing, in the contract. It cuts into their bottom line. It is dismissed as: "I have trained (by me) observers, not police or military. They don't need any of that, all they need to know how to do is write the numbers zero through twelve (maybe twenty-four), the letters A, P, M, and the words "patrolled," "all clear," and "quiet."
N. A., this post as well as your observations concerning insurance is on the mark.
When I applied for part-time work with a small guard company, my resume contained previous military training and schools. The response to my resume still rings in my ears these many years later, "Mr. Warnock, if you are approached and threatened by a person on this post would you use your military training to defend yourself." I answered, of course I would, defend me and other innocent parties.
He replied, "We would want you run to the safest location and call the supervisor and/or the police. Oh, by the way I see from your resume you were an instructor in the Air Force, perhaps you would like an instructor's position here?"
My answer was short and sweet, "What, teach them how to run?" He turned beet red!
I didn't accept the position.
N. A., it would appear there are indeed constants in life and sadly the security and insurance industries.
Enjoy the day,
Bill

[N. A. Corbier]

I thought that was a really good point. N.A., I'll be adding that as a side note in my lesson plans. Your standard fee is one dollar for unlimited use, I presume?

Standard fee is my name in print. :) Seriously, all that I ask for a verbatim quotation is source reference. No royalty fee required. :)

[N. A. Corbier]

Telling your insurance provider that your unarmed guard is going to stand their ground is a sure-fire way to get your premium increased to the same level as an armed officer contractually obligated to protect life and enforce law. :)

[Echos13]

Echos13 and Jimmyhat: Keep at it. You are both self starters with at least three years of previous sworn peace officer experience, graduate of a recognized civilian or military law enforcement/security forces academy, then may I suggest you go to your local US Marshals Service Office and get information on becoming a Court Security Officer. You will be working for a security firm contracted by the US Marshals Service, pay is good and they encourage training, training and more training. If you and others reading this post are sharp, clean noses and a desire to protect the federal judiciary, by all means apply.
The job is not all peaches and cream. You will be the first line of defense for courthouse screening and other duties, some have been murdered in the performance of these duties. For you who follow the Christian tradition, Jesus once said, "Greater love hath no man than to lay down his life for a friend." Friend, all of mankind.
Enjoy the day,
Bill

The Marshals Office is an intriguing pursuit. However there are no court positions of any kind being sponsored or delegated by the USMO anywhere in Florida under contracted assignment as far as I know. I believe they are ether assigned positions by the FDLE or the local authority of that jurisdiction. High profile cases in courts here are covered directly by USMO or state LEO?s such as the FHP or Special assigned state officers and agents. My former Police Sergeant just recently became and Air Marshal. Which is to ?high? a profile for me. I had considered being a court deputy or bailiff. But getting on with the county here is like trying to get into the secret service. I just got "deslected" for a position in indentification services and another for crime prevention specialist. Shame, I really wanted one of those jobs. The federal building here that houses the Dept. of children and families, probation and parole (major scumbag central) and a few others has a WBC doing armed security at the lowest pay allowed by law. Insane! I would love to have a job with in a government operation. But due to the way things are run here in Florida "that so called right to work" crap. I am reluctantly pursuing something in the uniform private sector. Not that it's all bad. It's just that most are held by WBCs. And like most of the WBC?s here they hire younger people to get away with low end entry pay and retirees who just want some extra pocket change. And like most of them any ?self starters? are looked upon as over zealous guards that intimidate the lesser ones with ho-hum attitudes. And as N.A. pointed out it makes the management/supers feel that the contract is threatened by those who take extra steps beyond SOP in an honest sincere effort to making the job safer and easier. We shall see.

[EH126]

Yes, though there are some places that offer some advanced training such as; low-light firing, basic rifle in addition to the basic CCW course. Then again it is all private not state mandated training, it is definately not consistant.


Isn't it "I have a concealed weapons permit, therefore I can carry a gun while performing security job?" up there?

Ie: Absolutely no security-specific training, just the citizen CCW course. I knew a few states are like that.

[EH126]

Do you know of any firms that give advanced training here in MIchigan?


It's interesting to see so many private security professionals wanting to get the advanced training while their employers could care less. Interesting and sad at the same time. I provide a class known as Close Quarters Confrontation Responses that is geared towards immediate threats against unarmed or armed agents. The majority of the students foot the bill themselves. I'm encouraged by the fact that the agents/officers themselves want the advanced training. There are actually quite a few training outfits offering security and private citizen training classes lately. Like anything else, there are good and bad and I would caution you to check the reputation and references of the providers before plunking down your hard earned dough.