tips and tricks

[Defensive tactics]

I am new to the forum so hopefully we can start a good conversation. Lets hear from everyone some of there diffrent tips and tricks (if you dont want to discuss it over a public forum please send me a PM) some of mine are,

1. Watch there hands never look them directly in the eyes
2. Watch there foot placement yours and there's
3. be aware of breathing yours and there's
4. Be easily concealed read a newspaper or talk on your cell phones well watching someone

PLEASE ADD TO THE LIST
thank you

[histfan71]

PLEASE ADD TO THE LIST

Bill,

There are five areas of awareness:

1. HANDS I think this is self-explanitory.
2. WEAPONS Not just the obvious weapons, but improvised weapons as well.
3. FOOTING Watch where you step. You do not want to trip over something and end up on the ground. I triped over a curb once while on a felony traffic stop and it was wasn't pretty.
4. ASSOCIATES I don't just mean anyone with the bad guy. To me, anyone in the area who does not have a badge that says "Police Officer" or "Deputy Sheriff" (OK, maybe "Security Guard") can be an associate.
5. ESCAPE ROUTES Both for the bad guy AND for you.

Good topic, Bill. Thanks for bringing it up.

[Bill Warnock]

Bill,

There are five areas of awareness:

1. HANDS I think this is self-explanitory.
2. WEAPONS Not just the obvious weapons, but improvised weapons as well.
3. FOOTING Watch where you step. You do not want to trip over something and end up on the ground. I triped over a curb once while on a felony traffic stop and it was wasn't pretty.
4. ASSOCIATES I don't just mean anyone with the bad guy. To me, anyone in the area who does not have a badge that says "Police Officer" or "Deputy Sheriff" (OK, maybe "Security Guard") can be an associate.
5. ESCAPE ROUTES Both for the bad guy AND for you.

Good topic, Bill. Thanks for bringing it up.

Histfan71, thank you.
Back home again.
Getting into a rut could preclude going home at night. We must always remember, the difference between a rut and a grave is its depth.
Enjoy the day,
Bill

[wisconsinite]

Quote:
Originally Posted by histfan71

There are five areas of awareness:

1. HANDS I think this is self-explanitory.
2. WEAPONS Not just the obvious weapons, but improvised weapons as well.
3. FOOTING Watch where you step. You do not want to trip over something and end up on the ground. I triped over a curb once while on a felony traffic stop and it was wasn't pretty.
4. ASSOCIATES I don't just mean anyone with the bad guy. To me, anyone in the area who does not have a badge that says "Police Officer" or "Deputy Sheriff" (OK, maybe "Security Guard") can be an associate.
5. ESCAPE ROUTES Both for the bad guy AND for you.


histfan, good points on your 1-5. May I elaborate?
1. HANDS-If you can, politely ask the "suspect" to keep his hands out of his pockets. That way, he'll be less likely to pull a blade, or other blunt weapon on you. Also, do not cross YOUR arms or leave them at your sides. Keep your arms and hands at your mid-chest level. That way, if the suspect does take a swing at you, you'll be more likely to swat or deflect his attack.
2. WEAPONS-That goes back to, asking him/her to keep his hands out of his pockets.
3. FOOTING-Keep your legs shoulder lenght apart. Keep equal weight on both legs. And try to keep a low center of gravity. That way it may be less likely of YOU going down, or being tackled. Also, if you can get backup, do so. Have one security person speaking to the suspect head-on, and have another security person standing at a 45-degree angle to the rear of the subject, to watch the suspect's backside, to minimize "surprises".
4. ASSOCIATES-If the suspect has other "friends", be aware of that fact, and call for backup if you feel threatened and outmanned.
5. ESCAPE ROUTES-As you said already, routes for the suspect, but more importantly, YOU! If all hell breaks loose, the LAST thing you want, is to be cornered.
I like what Bill said. "the difference between a rut and a grave is its depth".
Stay Safe!

[Lawson]

Remember the bladed stance... dont talk to them face to face, turn your body to an angle (I guess unless you are wider from the side than from the front) so that the suspect is looking at your shoulder and across your chest almost. This gives them a smaller area to attack and any body shots will be toward your arm.... the body part you were going to use to deflect a shot anyway.

[wisconsinite]

Tou'che, Lawson...the bladed stance=a lesser attack area. But keep your strong-side away from the subject. That way, if you need to throw a punch or kick, or, for you lucky folks, that carry a sidearm...you'll have for room to wind-up and execute those active countermeasures.

[astorms]

Some additional points...

Talk with your hands. When dealing with a suspect, always have your hands in front of you, ready to react to whatever they might attack with. Your hands also act as a distraction for the suspect.

Never, ever talk face to face (or in the 1 position). You always want to be in the 1.5 position for inerviewing. This enables you to step out of the way of any punch or kick that may be delivered. If the perp turns, you turn to maintain the 1.5 position, always.

Always try to have a 'reactionary gap'. This is the space that keeps you at a safe distance from your perp/suspect, so they cannot easily strike you with a punch or a kick(usually 4-6 feet). This gap also give you time to react, in case there is an attack. The reactionary gap also takes into consideration personal space. Both yours and your perp's. If your too close, they may feel your attacking/confronting them, which can escelate a situation faster than you wanted to. Always be in control.

Breathing is important. Your heart rate can jump from resting to over 170bpm in a matter of seconds when dealing with a potentially life threatening situation. Tactical breathing is taking a breath, holding it for 5 seconds, breathing out, hold for five seconds and repeat. In addition, tunnel vision accompanies this natural reaction to stressful situations. With tactical breathing, you allow more blood to stay in your extremities, reducing tunnel vision. Hearing is also affected when fight or flight kicks in.

Always be aware of what and who is around you. You never know if the perp has a partner or accomplice. Be ready to react to their possibe attack. Also, if you carry a baton, that you may not have all the space around you to extend it. You may need to improvise your tactics.

Training, once again, is key! You need to practice and train all the time. We have monthly sessions where we practice and refresh our PPCT, baton and knife defense skills. We come up with situations we might encounter, and we re-enact situation we have encountered and see how they could have turned out differently. Officers will become more confident in their skills with practice. There is no replacement for real life experience, and that includes training. Another way to train is to visualize what you would do in certain situations. This is good for those who don't receive physical training, and for those who want to stay sharp. Visualize potential occurrences for your respective work place(s), and what your reaction would be.

Lastly, nobody ever likes to read the headlines about S/O's getting killed on the job. If you feel your skills are not equal to, or above those of your perp's, then back off and call the police. It's not worth a life to attempt an arrest you can't conduct yourself. This subject ties in to working in pairs or with a partner, but labour costs don't always allow for this. But that is a totally different topic.


Adam

[FoxGhost]

Dont be shy with usage of force.The safest detainments&ejections for me have been when i have come up from behind the bad guy and immidiately took hold over the elbow of his strong arm.Dont just controll a situation, dominate it.

Everything else is pretty much covered in the previous messages.But when everything else fails, body armour saves.Wear it and love it.Mine is a level II laminated dynema with a steel trauma plate over the chest.Me going home is worth the extra sweat.

FoxGhost

[wisconsinite]

Dont be shy with usage of force.The safest detainments&ejections for me have been when i have come up from behind the bad guy and immidiately took hold over the elbow of his strong arm.....

FoxGhost


FoxGhost, I don't know how laws and procedures are over on your side of the pond, but here in the U.S., you can't just walk up behind somebody on their 3 o'clock position, without just cause, and execute an escort hold or compliance hold. And while you think may be their dominant arm, just may not be. Even with their weak arm, they can swing around and punch you in your face, even while you try to maintain that pincer grip. Things happen quickly. Especially when someone resists. Escpecially when they are equal to or bigger than YOUR build.
Stay Safe.

[Mr. Security]

Man, am I glad that I don't work in LP. If you need to use such force on a regular basis with all its inherent risks, why not choose LE? The pay, benefits, training, and resources likely are better as well. I know someone has to do it, but not me. ;)

[FoxGhost]

FoxGhost, I don't know how laws and procedures are over on your side of the pond, but here in the U.S., you can't just walk up behind somebody on their 3 o'clock position, without just cause, and execute an escort hold or compliance hold. And while you think may be their dominant arm, just may not be. Even with their weak arm, they can swing around and punch you in your face, even while you try to maintain that pincer grip. Things happen quickly. Especially when someone resists. Escpecially when they are equal to or bigger than YOUR build.
Stay Safe.

The gist of the post was for you to hold the initative at all times and keep the subject on the defensive without allowing him either the time or space to think about anything other than doing as you tell him to.Little physical force works marvels for this effect when paired with confidence and certain sternness.Sorry for not making it clearer, i tend to forget im talking from a totally diffrent security culture.
As for someone swinging around and hitting you from that particular comealong,if it does escalate to a comealong that is, its not that easy when you have somebody controlling your arm&shoulder from your 4 o'clock ;)

And for Mr.Security
The sad truth is the only fatalities i know that we have here have been guards working retail security.They died because they either failed or were unable to dominate a situation and the bad guy took the initative.Thankfully, the store i currently work in is fairly peaceful, but my first posts were regular nightmares.Grocery stores are particulary hazardous as even Charlie the Crackhead needs to eat, though he doesnt have the cash for it.And for LE....well,their pay sucks even more than ours when compared to the risks they take.And they go out looking for trouble, mine come through the door to me.I would be perfectly happy just sitting in my office watching the cameras doing nothing, but the crackheads just wont let me :mad: ;)

FoxGhost

[Mr. Security]

.And for LE....well.... they go out looking for trouble...

FoxGhost

That's true. Good point. :)

[CanISeeYourReciept]

Well im currently in school to be LE, so im doing LP now to pay for books, food and some good times :)

[JCreasey]

I am new to the forum so hopefully we can start a good conversation. Lets hear from everyone some of there diffrent tips and tricks (if you dont want to discuss it over a public forum please send me a PM) some of mine are,

1. Watch there hands never look them directly in the eyes
2. Watch there foot placement yours and there's
3. be aware of breathing yours and there's
4. Be easily concealed read a newspaper or talk on your cell phones well watching someone
[FONT=Arial]
PLEASE ADD TO THE LIST
thank you
Ben Wallace
5. When you want to see what someone has in thier hands or get a better look at a shoplifter, walk right at them and then by them. Remember...you are just another customer. As you are passing them and in thier blind spot...then get a good look.
6. If a shoplifter or someone you are watching surprises you in the store...don't do anything other than continue to do what you were doing. The more you move, the more you stand out. The more you try to look innocent, the more guilty you look.
7. Try using a Black Jewel (CD) Case. They make a perfect mirror and do not stand out in stores that carry them. I have used this tactic extensively and am still amazed at how many shoplifters would conceal right behind me. Trust me...it works. I have received boxes full of awards for District productivity and multiple National awards (Canada) for arrest stats.

[Mr. Security]

Of course, if prevention is your goal instead of arrest quotas, you could dress like a store clerk, approach them and then ask if they need any assistance. If you misjudged a shopper, they will think that you're just being helpful. If you are dealing with a shoplifter, you may just rattle them enough so that they move on to a different store. ;)

[Matt218]

Having just completed training one of our new hires, I have learned alot from them and passed a lot of knowledge onto them.

Watch your back. If you are working with a partner, if you are talking to ANYONE, be it someone whose receipt you are checking to someone who you are asking where they placed the vodka they were walking around with, have the other guy looking around where you are not. Condition Orange ALL the time, every time.

Watch their hands, thats what will kill you.

When its time to go hands on, isolate the hands, get them on the ground, get the cuffs on, get them inside. The longer you are outside the more attention you get. DONT GET YOUR COVER BLOWN.

Wrap them when they hit the door. Be it a bear hug focusing on the elbows to prevent hand movements, or a full nelson (or other variations) isolate any threat, being hands.

Grab them, cuff them, pat them, sit them down, start your paper work.

NEVER sit them in a metal chair or have any weapons avalible near by.

That one person who you dont pay attention to is the one who steals 95% of the time.

Know where people can and cannot pay for merchandise.

EXAMPLE: Last night I see two men walking from the bakery at 9:30pm (Not only are bakery and deli registers closed after 8, but this particular bakery doesn't have a register to begin with.) with a bagged 6 pack of corona and various meat and fish products. Once outside we receipt checked them, one took off on foot, made it ten feet until I was teaching my trainee how to properly apply pressure points. :)

If you have uniformed security outside the store, have them make all vehicles parked in the firelane near the entrances park in a spot. If they refuse, get the plate just in case.

I don't know how liberal your policies are, but if 3 guys do a beer run, I'm going to get something out of it. They can either re-pay the store restitution, or they can buy a new windshield after my handcuffs smash the old one out.

It also aids when calling the police that the vehicle has a smashed front wind shield, or side passenger window, or a large dent from someone kicking in a side door.

Write good quality clean reports, have your paper work in order when PD gets there.

Condition White leads to Condition Black

Anyone needs any more advice, let me know.

[ACP01]

Dont be shy with usage of force.The safest detainments&ejections for me have been when i have come up from behind the bad guy and immidiately took hold over the elbow of his strong arm.Dont just controll a situation, dominate it.

FoxGhost


If you do get someones elbow from behind you had better be prepared for retaliation. The BG is already in an excited state of mind and this may set him/her off.

[Matt218]

A few more tips

If they don't have ID, call PD. I had one incident where the guy was cool and coopertive giving us his information, we called PD as it was $25 or $26, they patted him down and found his drivers license, NONE of which matched the social, the signature, the name, address, etc that he gave us.

Turns out he was using his deceased fathers information.

Just because they are cooroperative doesnt mean they arn't waiting to attack you when your partner goes to make copies.

[LPGuy]

FoxGhost, I don't know how laws and procedures are over on your side of the pond, but here in the U.S., you can't just walk up behind somebody on their 3 o'clock position, without just cause, and execute an escort hold or compliance hold. And while you think may be their dominant arm, just may not be. Even with their weak arm, they can swing around and punch you in your face, even while you try to maintain that pincer grip. Things happen quickly. Especially when someone resists. Escpecially when they are equal to or bigger than YOUR build.
Stay Safe.

When you are taking someone into custody, you sure are permitted to take them into an escort hold. A palm-forward escort is not considered a use of force, at least not in Washington State. It causes no pain to the subject and it is done for officer safety.

We routinely use the palm-forward to escort people. If they begin to resist, it can easily be turned into a counter-joint and thus, pain compliance. It also allows you to easily place the subject's hands into a handcuffing position.

[Investigation]

When you are taking someone into custody, you sure are permitted to take them into an escort hold. A palm-forward escort is not considered a use of force, at least not in Washington State. It causes no pain to the subject and it is done for officer safety.

We routinely use the palm-forward to escort people. If they begin to resist, it can easily be turned into a counter-joint and thus, pain compliance. It also allows you to easily place the subject's hands into a handcuffing position.

In Washington State, the taught Continuum of Force is as follows:

1. Visual presence
2. Verbal commands/de-escalation
3. Touching subject/joint manipulation/physical escort
4. Impact weapons
5. Deadly force

[LPGuy]

In Washington State, the taught Continuum of Force is as follows:

1. Visual presence
2. Verbal commands/de-escalation
3. Touching subject/joint manipulation/physical escort
4. Impact weapons
5. Deadly force

In Washington State, you may legally perform contact controls and escort techniques at a level two use of force. A better model also adds suspect behavior as a reason for your actions. Contact controls and escort techniques may be used on passive resisters.

By "joint manipulation," I assume you're referring to counter-joints, which are in fact pain compliance techniques. These would be used on a level 3 use of force, which is reserved for active resisters.

In addition, a numbered model such as this could be somewhat confusing--for example, there is no need to progress through steps 1 and 2 if you need to immediately perform 3. If someone needs to be controlled immediately, you can indeed take them into an escort hold upon contact.

[LPGuy]

A palm-forward escort is not considered a use of force, at least not in Washington State.

To better clarify, an escort technique such as a palm forward is not classified as "using force" on someone, just as handcuffing someone is not classified as a "use of force," either.

[Investigation]

To better clarify, an escort technique such as a palm forward is not classified as "using force" on someone, just as handcuffing someone is not classified as a "use of force," either.

Well, I don't know what your company guidelines are, but that is similar to the model that is used by the C.J.T.C. here in Washington State (as I was taught in the academy). Also bear in mind that the levels are very fluid and that "reasonable and necessary" force can be used to protect yourself. Think about this, if you are "escorting" an individual and they feel that they not feel free to leave, you are using a level of force (regardless if they are being processed for theft or not). I know a bit about the work that you do considering that I worked in L.P. / L.P. management prior to working in L.E.

[LPGuy]

Well, I don't know what your company guidelines are, but that is similar to the model that is used by the C.J.T.C. here in Washington State (as I was taught in the academy). Also bear in mind that the levels are very fluid and that "reasonable and necessary" force can be used to protect yourself. Think about this, if you are "escorting" an individual and they feel that they not feel free to leave, you are using a level of force (regardless if they are being processed for theft or not). I know a bit about the work that you do considering that I worked in L.P. / L.P. management prior to working in L.E.

I'm actually former LP and no longer work for a private company. I now work for a school district and most of our policies (especially use of force guidelines) are taken straight out of the local police department's manual. They are also identical to what I was taught by police officers in CJ classes. Then again, these guidelines can and do change over time as court cases effect them.

The original point that I meant to make was that contact controls and escort techniques may lawfully be used on anyone that is being less than fully compliant and cooperative. That includes argumentive subjects, people going limp and/or dragging their feet, etc. Those are all forms of passive resistance which allow you to place your hands on them to facilitate cooperation.

[LPGuy]

I became curious and started looking around on the Internet at various use of force continuums, and I see that some places actually use a 6-step model. In that model, contact controls would be at a level three (with presence being the first level and verbal commands the second).

I've always been taught a 5-step model, which places officer presence and verbal communication in the same first level. Those two elements make up the vast majority of officer contacts every day, whether or not they have to do with apprehension of a criminal suspect.

A six level model seems very redundant to me.

[Investigation]

I became curious and started looking around on the Internet at various use of force continuums, and I see that some places actually use a 6-step model. In that model, contact controls would be at a level three (with presence being the first level and verbal commands the second).

I've always been taught a 5-step model, which places officer presence and verbal communication in the same first level. Those two elements make up the vast majority of officer contacts every day, whether or not they have to do with apprehension of a criminal suspect.

A six level model seems very redundant to me.
Yes, I too have seen some variations. I remember that different departments place OC at different levels. Some at level 2 (with the impact weapons) and some at 3. If I remember correctly, the P.D. I used to work at placed it at level 3. School District? Great choice! The benefits were better than L.P. with PERS 2, etc... The community colleges are not too bad either (where I reside now).

[SecTrainer]

The only problem with the idea of "force continuums" (and sometimes the way they're taught) is that they tend to instill a "sequencing" frame of mind in some people. BG does 1, you do 2...BG does 3, you do 4...etc.

This "sequence expectation" can actually create a built-in delay in the officer's reaction that may be only a split-second, but it can be enough to get an officer into trouble. "WHOA! The BG went straight to #5! What happened to #1, 2, 3 and 4?" Sounds dumb, I know, but it's subconscious.

In my experience, the BG typically doesn't step through anything. He goes straight for whatever his "highest" level of force might be - whether that's #3, 4 or 5 - at the first opportunity, if he can. Training should keep the officer's decision-making as binary as possible and not get him snarled up in certain expectations. It's significant that you can find "force continuums" of from 4 to 6 "levels", a clear indication that this is just a training model that tries to teach a concept, in this case "judgement". As such, it should never be allowed to become a substitute for the concept it is trying to teach. You'll rarely have the opportunity in confrontations to "work the math" of "Let's see now...force level "Y" is "greater than" force level "X", so I can do "Z".

[LPGuy]

The only problem with the idea of "force continuums" (and sometimes the way they're taught) is that they tend to instill a "sequencing" frame of mind in some people. BG does 1, you do 2...BG does 3, you do 4...etc.

This "sequence expectation" can actually create a built-in delay in the officer's reaction that may be only a split-second, but it can be enough to get an officer into trouble. "WHOA! The BG went straight to #5! What happened to #1, 2, 3 and 4?" Sounds dumb, I know, but it's subconscious.

In my experience, the BG typically doesn't step through anything. He goes straight for whatever his "highest" level of force might be - whether that's #3, 4 or 5 - at the first opportunity, if he can. Training should keep the officer's decision-making as binary as possible and not get him snarled up in certain expectations. It's significant that you can find "force continuums" of from 4 to 6 "levels", a clear indication that this is just a training model that tries to teach a concept, in this case "judgement". As such, it should never be allowed to become a substitute for the concept it is trying to teach. You'll rarely have the opportunity in confrontations to "work the math" of "Let's see now...force level "Y" is "greater than" force level "X", so I can do "Z".

Great points. That's why I said a numbered model can be confusing, because it may instill that idea that you need to start at #1 and work your way up. A good model pairs suspect behaviors with your levels of force. That way, you know what actions are acceptable to use based on how they are acting.

For example, you'll know that an active resister is one who is displayed heightened physical resistance and displaying signs that he will actively resist your attempts to control him. That is directly tied to level 3 on my force continuum, which states I can use counter-joints and pain compliance, hair holds, take-downs, knee and elbow strikes to primary targets, OC spray and baton strikes to primary targets against this person.

[LPGuy]

Yes, I too have seen some variations. I remember that different departments place OC at different levels. Some at level 2 (with the impact weapons) and some at 3. If I remember correctly, the P.D. I used to work at placed it at level 3. School District? Great choice! The benefits were better than L.P. with PERS 2, etc... The community colleges are not too bad either (where I reside now).

On a 5-step model, our department places OC and baton strikes (only against primary targets) on a level 3, which would be against active resistance. Baton strikes against secondary targets would be on a level 4, and baton strikes against tertiary targets would be on a level 5.

The school district that I work at is indeed a great job, with much better pay and benefits than LP. In addition, you get all the vacations and summers off as well. :)

[BadBoynMD]

"This kind of "mathematical calculation" about whether a particular bust is "worth it or not" is not good LP, and it's not smart policy."

- SecTrainer

I've been trained on all my weapons "oc spray, expandable baton, firearm, and duty knife all stay on the strong side. When conducting the "interview" stance, you always angle your body so that you're weapons are opposite of the subject. Talking with your hands in front of you, or even crossed in front of you are the best ways to hold your stance. Also, keeping in mind that if you're taking notes to keep yourself at a reasonable distance from the subject.

We all, yes even security have to keep in mind that due to todays lovely technology, everyone is "watching".

[panther10758]

Problem with that is I know of no Loss Prevention program that allows an Officer to carry such weapons!

[N. A. Corbier]

"This kind of "mathematical calculation" about whether a particular bust is "worth it or not" is not good LP, and it's not smart policy."

- SecTrainer

This is a kindly suggestion that you keep such posts on the LP side. I do not know if Security Consultant will allow them here, but on my side, corrective actions will be made.

[Curtis Baillie]

This is a kindly suggestion that you keep such posts on the LP side. I do not know if Security Consultant will allow them here, but on my side, corrective actions will be made.Lynch Mob's spam postings were reported to SIW Editor.

[Chucky]

Problem with that is I know of no Loss Prevention program that allows an Officer to carry such weapons!


Panther I would guess by this statement that you have never worked LP in the heart of any states intercity. One night a week I am part of a team that is the last hope that a chain has for a store that has tried all the conventional methods. Generally on a Friday night as that is one of the most active nights.Then we may switch to Saturdays for awhile.
Our company calls this a take back team. We go in well armed and armored. Officer Friendly has that night off. Word gets around real fast and seems to be very effective.

[panther10758]

As I stated I know of no LP program that allows officers to carry weapons I did not say there are not any!