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Brent311
01-01-2008, 07:32 PM
I know this issue has been brought up before, but I need to get a straight answer. I am a security officer at a large private college in Mississippi (approximately 200+ acres, 3500+ students). We do issue parking tickets, and occassional traffic violations for running stop signs, wreckless driving, etc. At the current time, we do not have any emergency lights on our vehicles. When I stop someone I basically have to flash high beams and honk horn. If the driver is uncooperative or I think there is need for further investigation, I will ask dispatch to call PD to have an officer arrive and assist or take over. Our director is now wanting to put lights on the vehicles. He wants to put red and green lights on the vehicles and wig wags, but others have told me security can only have green, amber, or white. We have an excellent relationship with the local PD, and they even have a detail that patrols our campus at night in addition to our units. A few PD officers have told me that we can put anything but blue on our cars since we are on private property, and the students agree to abide by our rules when they buy a student decal. My boss wants me to find out the legalities, but I can not find anything regarding the issue in MS state statutes. Can anyone be of assistance? It would be greatly appreciated!

I also wanted to add the color codes for emergency vehicles in Mississippi: blue/blue is law enforcement(some agencies use blue/red; some also have blue/amber). Red/red, red/white, and similar are usually fire and ems. Security is typically amber, green or white. After looking at others posts about their state's strict color codes, it seems that we are very lax here is MS!

Tennsix
01-01-2008, 07:35 PM
Schedule a meeting with your PD's traffic division commander. They explain the laws pertaining to lights and any authority you have to effect traffic stops.

In my state, security uses yellow. Volunteer EMS use green, vol FD’s use blue, LE uses red and blue. Only an LEO can conduct traffic stops on (private or municipal property).

FireEMSPolice
01-01-2008, 10:25 PM
In Ohio, being on private property, you can run whatever colors you want. Once you cross into a public roadway, then you are in trouble. The preferred colors of security here are green, clear, amber or a combination of them. Or you can get an LED lightbar that is all clear when off. I agree though, your vehicles should be equipped with lights and sirens for an emergency response on your property.

Tennsix
01-01-2008, 10:43 PM
I used to live on the IN/OH line. Ohio volunteer FF/EMS run red lights and siren. Occasionally, a loose cannon would kick on his red lights and siren to stop cars or joy ride on the Indiana side.

N. A. Corbier
01-01-2008, 11:57 PM
Mississippi does not regulate private security at the state level.

Mississippi Code and Regulations via LexisNexis...
§ 63-7-17. Use of spot lamps, auxiliary driving lamps, and signal lamps.
(1) Spot lamps. Any motor vehicle or motorcycle may be equipped with not to exceed one (1) spot lamp. Every lighted spot lamp shall be so aimed and used upon approaching another vehicle that no part of the beam will be directed into the eyes of the approaching driver. Spot lamps may not emit other than either a white or amber light.

§ 63-7-19. Lights on police and emergency vehicles; lights on rural mail carrier vehicles.

(1) Except as otherwise provided for unmarked vehicles under Section 19-25-15 and Section 25-1-87, every police vehicle shall be marked with blue lights. Every ambulance and special use EMS vehicle as defined in Section 41-59-3 shall be marked with red lights front and back and also may be marked with white and amber lights in addition to red lights. Every emergency management/civil defense vehicle, including emergency response vehicles of the Department of Environmental Quality, shall be marked with blinking, rotating or oscillating red lights. Official vehicles of a 911 Emergency Communications District may be marked with red and white lights. Every wrecker or other vehicle used for emergency work, except vehicles authorized to use blue or red lights, shall be marked with blinking, oscillating or rotating amber colored lights to warn other vehicles to yield the right-of-way, as provided in Section 63-3-809. Only police vehicles used for emergency work may be marked with blinking, oscillating or rotating blue lights to warn other vehicles to yield the right-of-way. Only law enforcement vehicles, fire vehicles, private or department-owned vehicles used by firemen of volunteer fire departments which receive funds pursuant to Section 83-1-39 when responding to calls, emergency management/civil defense vehicles, emergency response vehicles of the Department of Environmental Quality, ambulances used for emergency work, and 911 Emergency Communications District vehicles may be marked with blinking, oscillating or rotating red lights to warn other vehicles to yield the right-of-way. This section shall not apply to school buses carrying lighting devices in accordance with Section 63-7-23.

(2) Any vehicle referred to in subsection (1) of this section also shall be authorized to use alternating flashing headlights when responding to any emergency.

(3) Any vehicle operated by a United States rural mail carrier for the purpose of delivering United States mail may be marked with two (2) amber colored lights on front top of the vehicle and two (2) red colored lights on rear top of the vehicle and alternatively or additionally may be marked with a white, flashing strobe light on the roof of the vehicle so as to warn approaching travelers to decrease their speed because of danger of colliding with the mail carrier as he stops and starts along the edge of the road, street or highway.

§ 63-7-20. Use of blue and red lights and alternating flashing headlights.
(2) It is unlawful for any person to use or display red lights on a motor vehicle except as provided for in Section 63-7-19. It is not unlawful for the red lights authorized for private or department-owned vehicles used by firemen of volunteer fire departments, as provided in Section 63-7-19, to remain mounted on such vehicles when the lights are not in use.

(3) It is unlawful for any vehicle to use alternating flashing headlights except an emergency vehicle as provided in Section 63-7-19.

(4) A person violating this section is guilty of a misdemeanor and, upon conviction, shall be punished by a fine of not less than Fifty Dollars ($50.00) nor more than Five Hundred Dollars ($500.00).

... in other words, have fun with amber, white, and green. If your vehicles ever enter Tennessee, white to the front is prohibited by statute.

N. A. Corbier
01-02-2008, 12:00 AM
New post since the last one was mostly citation.

People, when you are looking for "what colors can I use in private security," do not look at the state security statute first. Look at the state's traffic code, specifically something called "flashing lights," "emergency vehicle lights," or other such wording. Everyone just borrows, with little exceptions, from model laws.

Some states regulate the lights security, as a licensee, may have. Others don't care. Usually when security, as licensees, are regulated, its because someone got a law passed to prevent security from doing something.

Brent311
01-02-2008, 12:21 AM
Thanks, N.A. Corbier for such a detailed response. You definitely went above and beyond. I will print out this thread and take it to our director for him to look over. He can then use those codes you cited if he wants to refer to them. Would our vehicles technically be considered a type of emergency vehicle, since it lumps tow trucks into the same category? In asking, I was wondering about this part concerning wig wags.

(3) It is unlawful for any vehicle to use alternating flashing headlights except an emergency vehicle as provided in Section 63-7-19.

Thanks again for the great response!
Brent

Tennsix
01-02-2008, 02:18 AM
It’s still a good idea to talk with the local authorities. A local court’s interpretation, of a given statute, may differ slightly from what you read in a book. The court’s interpretation, if it varies, could very well be in your favor. You should get their input before investing in costly equipment you might not be authorized to use.

EMTGuard
01-02-2008, 10:37 AM
I also wanted to add the color codes for emergency vehicles in Mississippi: blue/blue is law enforcement(some agencies use blue/red; some also have blue/amber). Red/red, red/white, and similar are usually fire and ems. Security is typically amber, green or white. After looking at others posts about their state's strict color codes, it seems that we are very lax here is MS! This is also the same as Louisiana. Genereally the rule is anything but blue and you won't have any problems. We use a red minibar on teh roof of the EMT partol van at my site.
Truthfully, even the ban on blue lights is not a big deal in some places if the vehicle never leaves private property. At a chemical plant where I was posted we patroled in a Ford station wagon which had no license plate or inspection stickers. It never left the gates of the plant. I had a blue dash light flashing everynight I went on patrol and the local cops never had a problem. When every forklift and pickup in a plant has a flashing light on top the use of the blue or red made our patrol vehicles stand out better.

Charger
01-02-2008, 04:56 PM
As others have said, you'll want to speak to the traffic guys in the local PD to get a clarified answer. But a big question here for you is whether or not your vehicles ever leave private property. I can't speak for Mississippi, but in most states the traffic code doesn't apply on private land. So technically you could run whatever color you want if the vehicle never leaves. (Yes, even for fueling up) If you have to drive up the street to get gas, or leave your property for any reason, you're probably gonna want to make sure your lights are of the legal colors only. But again, this depends on whether or not traffic code applies on private property, and you'll want to get that clarified by someone local to you who is "in the know."

HotelSecurity
01-03-2008, 03:34 AM
In Quebec we have government run no-fault car insurance. The governemtn agency that runs it has very strict rules on who can have emergency lights. You even need a license for yellow ones - Vehicles with them have to be mechanically inspected every year or so. This extra expense means that most security companies do not bother.

SecTrainer
01-03-2008, 09:05 AM
Only an LEO can conduct traffic stops on (private or municipal property).

Do you have a reference to this law? In most states, property owners enjoy very broad rights to regulate behavior in which they have a demonstrated interest - such as driving, parking, controlling the possession of "contraband", establishing restricted areas, etc. - so long as the behavior that is being controlled takes place within the confines of the property. There are a few oddball exceptions - one state prohibits anyone but an LEO from towing vehicles even from private property, for instance - but they're fairly rare in common-law states.

If only an LEO can conduct "traffic stops" in your state, it would technically prohibit security from even manning entrance gates, which could certainly be challenged as constituting "traffic stops".

I think the bigger issue with security conducting traffic stops is not a matter of their authority to do so, but the fact that most security officers are not trained in the proper techniques. Traffic stops are among the most risky of interactions with citizens and should only be conducted by trained personnel.

SecTrainer
01-03-2008, 09:15 AM
I know this issue has been brought up before, but I need to get a straight answer. I am a security officer at a large private college in Mississippi (approximately 200+ acres, 3500+ students). We do issue parking tickets, and occassional traffic violations for running stop signs, wreckless driving, etc. At the current time, we do not have any emergency lights on our vehicles. When I stop someone I basically have to flash high beams and honk horn. If the driver is uncooperative or I think there is need for further investigation, I will ask dispatch to call PD to have an officer arrive and assist or take over. Our director is now wanting to put lights on the vehicles. He wants to put red and green lights on the vehicles and wig wags, but others have told me security can only have green, amber, or white. We have an excellent relationship with the local PD, and they even have a detail that patrols our campus at night in addition to our units. A few PD officers have told me that we can put anything but blue on our cars since we are on private property, and the students agree to abide by our rules when they buy a student decal. My boss wants me to find out the legalities, but I can not find anything regarding the issue in MS state statutes. Can anyone be of assistance? It would be greatly appreciated!

I also wanted to add the color codes for emergency vehicles in Mississippi: blue/blue is law enforcement(some agencies use blue/red; some also have blue/amber). Red/red, red/white, and similar are usually fire and ems. Security is typically amber, green or white. After looking at others posts about their state's strict color codes, it seems that we are very lax here is MS!

I wouldn't talk with local police to get the skinny about this. I would talk with the Department of Motor Vehicles and/or the appropriate level of command at the state patrol. As Corbier points out, these are mostly state traffic laws.

However, other restrictions can be "scattered around" in state, county and local statutes, so it wouldn't hurt to also check with corporate counsel, who can have a skilled paralegal perform a proper search of the statutes and any relevant case law.

Tennsix
01-03-2008, 01:30 PM
Every police officer in a given state enforces state laws, including the traffic code. It is a misnomer that the state police/patrol are the resident experts. In this case, it would most worthwhile to speak with the local police since they will be the agency mostly likely to deal with any problems regarding the company’s use of emergency equipment. The DMV might know the law but they do not enforce it and they won’t be familiar with any local interpretation of said laws. The local police and the local courts are the people that deal directly with this, not the DMV or state patrol.

FireEMSPolice
01-03-2008, 01:46 PM
Every police officer in a given state enforces state laws, including the traffic code. It is a misnomer that the state police/patrol are the resident experts. In this case, it would most worthwhile to speak with the local police since they will be the agency mostly likely to deal with any problems regarding the company’s use of emergency equipment. The DMV might know the law but they do not enforce it and they won’t be familiar with any local interpretation of said laws. The local police and the local courts are the people that deal directly with this, not the DMV or state patrol.


Anyone ever thought about contacting the Attorney General?

Tennsix
01-03-2008, 02:02 PM
Do you have a reference to this law? In most states, property owners enjoy very broad rights to regulate behavior in which they have a demonstrated interest - such as driving, parking, controlling the possession of "contraband", establishing restricted areas, etc. - so long as the behavior that is being controlled takes place within the confines of the property. There are a few oddball exceptions - one state prohibits anyone but an LEO from towing vehicles even from private property, for instance - but they're fairly rare in common-law states.

If only an LEO can conduct "traffic stops" in your state, it would technically prohibit security from even manning entrance gates, which could certainly be challenged as constituting "traffic stops".

I think the bigger issue with security conducting traffic stops is not a matter of their authority to do so, but the fact that most security officers are not trained in the proper techniques. Traffic stops are among the most risky of interactions with citizens and should only be conducted by trained personnel.I’m not arguing whether security officers should be empowered to make stops on private property; I have no problem with that, if the officers are properly trained. Indiana law does provide for traffic enforcement and regulation, on private property, but not for actual “pull over’s”.
http://www.in.gov/legislative/ic/code/title9/ar21/ch18.html

Limiting access, at an entrance gate, is not a traffic stop. In this case, you are not detaining anyone, issuing a summons, or conducting an arrest. The driver is free to turn around and leave.

Brent311
01-03-2008, 02:31 PM
The director of our department sent an inquiry to our local PD, and to our law school, which is part of the college. I did not think about attorney general, but that would probably also be a good idea. I noticed while on patrol last night that we had a tow truck come through campus...he was running amber and red led lights. I guess the PD has not said anything to him about it, and probably will not! Thanks for the replies everyone.

Tennsix
01-03-2008, 03:07 PM
Were is red's 360 or 180?

msofin
01-03-2008, 05:29 PM
If you can run any color light bar on private property but not off it, you can get a black vinal cover from galls to cover the light bar before leading property. It has silk screened on it "OUT OF SERVICE". I would think that would work for you.

FireEMSPolice
01-03-2008, 06:05 PM
Fellas, as I stated earlier, get colored LED's with clear lenses. When they are off, there is no color visible. Problem solved!

flashlightcop509
01-03-2008, 06:34 PM
Fellas, as I stated earlier, get colored LED's with clear lenses. When they are off, there is no color visible. Problem solved!

True enough, and a bonus... If you happen to drive a retired PD or HP vehicle that still retains the outward appearance of a likely LEO vehicle (antennas, bullbar, spotlight, etc.), the sight of you on the interstate may easily keep the numbnuts about to pass you doing 90 mph from doing so, and to continue on at a safe speed that doesn't endanger himself or other motorists...

Badge714
01-03-2008, 07:40 PM
True enough, and a bonus... If you happen to drive a retired PD or HP vehicle that still retains the outward appearance of a likely LEO vehicle (antennas, bullbar, spotlight, etc.), the sight of you on the interstate may easily keep the numbnuts about to pass you doing 90 mph from doing so, and to continue on at a safe speed that doesn't endanger himself or other motorists...

And it will also encourage them to drive 54 miles an hour in front of you when you're trying to get someplace fast. And it will also encourage the "real" cops to stop you for going 56 in a 55.

N. A. Corbier
01-03-2008, 07:46 PM
I’m not arguing whether security officers should be empowered to make stops on private property; I have no problem with that, if the officers are properly trained. Indiana law does provide for traffic enforcement and regulation, on private property, but not for actual “pull over’s”.
http://www.in.gov/legislative/ic/code/title9/ar21/ch18.html

Limiting access, at an entrance gate, is not a traffic stop. In this case, you are not detaining anyone, issuing a summons, or conducting an arrest. The driver is free to turn around and leave.

This statute allows private concerns to enter into traffic enforcement agreements with the government, for the writing of "real" parking tickets.

Does your state, through specific statute or case law, prohibit a private person from stopping traffic on private property? If not, then this would kick in.


IC 9-21-18-14
Owners of property; regulation of property use; powers
Sec. 14. Except as provided in sections 9 through 13 of this chapter, nothing in this chapter may be construed to prevent the owner of real property used by the public for purposes of vehicular travel by permission of the owner and not as a matter of right from:
(1) prohibiting the property's use;
(2) requiring other, different, or additional conditions than those specified in this chapter; or
(3) otherwise regulating the property's use as determined best to the owner.
As added by P.L.2-1991, SEC.9.

In the absence of statutory prohibition, there is implied authorization.

N. A. Corbier
01-03-2008, 07:49 PM
And it will also encourage them to drive 54 miles an hour in front of you when you're trying to get someplace fast. And it will also encourage the "real" cops to stop you for going 56 in a 55.

What is it, folks, with the whole, "Lets look like the police" gimmick? I wrote a large rant about this. You do not need to look like the police, the bad people on your property should fear you MORE than the police. Police leave. Security tends to remain.

CAP
01-03-2008, 08:04 PM
And it will also encourage them to drive 54 miles an hour in front of you when you're trying to get someplace fast. And it will also encourage the "real" cops to stop you for going 56 in a 55.

Been there and got the T-Shirt for both. Glad the second didn't involve an orange jumpsuit.

FireEMSPolice
01-03-2008, 09:41 PM
What is it, folks, with the whole, "Lets look like the police" gimmick? I wrote a large rant about this. You do not need to look like the police, the bad people on your property should fear you MORE than the police. Police leave. Security tends to remain.That was not the intent of my post about LED's. I don't want anyone impersonating the police.

OccamsRazor
01-03-2008, 10:27 PM
What is it, folks, with the whole, "Lets look like the police" gimmick? I wrote a large rant about this. You do not need to look like the police, the bad people on your property should fear you MORE than the police. Police leave. Security tends to remain.

http://www.policeposers.com/

flashlightcop509
01-03-2008, 10:41 PM
And it will also encourage them to drive 54 miles an hour in front of you when you're trying to get someplace fast. And it will also encourage the "real" cops to stop you for going 56 in a 55.

Not gonna happen, at least in my state...

Hell, VSP Troopers I've talked with personally won't stop you unless you're driving in excess of 75 mph (speed limit here is 65, minimum speed is 40 mph without LEO involment on a roadway)...

And before this snowballs into a "wannabe" or "lookalike" debate, as far as I'm concerned, you could be well within the law and state statutes insomuch as say, owning a crown vic with an antenna or two on it, and not being labeled as a fake cop... as long as you do not have distinct graphics plainly saying or implying you are LEO, or happen to have dash/deck lights which are neither red/blue, red/red, or blue/blue, there won't be a problem here...

Wether you choose to project an image within the limits of the law is up to you..

BUT...

As I said, if you happen to drive such a vehicle, and you see Mr. Smith from Mass. quickly coming up on your 6 while you are doing 65 - 70, you can bet your butt he may think twice about blowing by you, and possibly preventing a rear end 10-50 at that speed with someone changing lanes without looking....

My state of mind is such that it is better to prevent a motor vehicle accident before me than it is to be stuck on the interstate for an hour after one happens...

mad_malk
01-03-2008, 10:41 PM
Soon in Florida security by state statute will be required and designated to use green and amber for there vehicles. so if you see green and amber it will be security. as for traffic stops etc it depends on the property and what the owner/Property manager/HOA request. IN some places i have run radar and issued citations which if not paid end in a lien against the home owners property. For cars where the home owner associated with said car is unknown due to residents allowing people in on there own/gate runners there cars get towed in some places others nothing is done. Your mileage and laws may vary.

Brent311
01-04-2008, 12:00 AM
The thing about our campus is that we have a large number of private campus roads, but we also have several city roads going straight through campus. We are right in the middle of a city of a little over 30,000. If anyone would like to look it up, it is MS College in Clinton, MS. I started thinking about something while at work last night. One of my supervisors, which is also a retired fire marshal and arson investigator, said that we are essentially volunteer firemen since we are the first responders at all fire alarm and medical emergency calls on campus. I have remembered times where I have received emergency calls, and just put on my hazard lights and just slowed for stop signs and exceeded the speed limit on the city streets through campus and passed police officers. They have never done anything, except for a few times where they turned around to follow to see where I was going. As I stated earlier, we have an extremely close relationship with the local PD and FD, and keep in close contact with them at all times. We even pay PD officers to sit on campus at night to assist us if needed. I wonder if any of this will play into what we can or can't have. I truly can't imagine any of the PD officers stopping us for running to an emergency when they will probably be called by us once we get there if we need additional assistance.

gcmc security part 2
01-04-2008, 12:07 AM
Soon in Florida security by state statute will be required and designated to use green and amber for there vehicles. so if you see green and amber it will be security. as for traffic stops etc it depends on the property and what the owner/Property manager/HOA request. IN some places i have run radar and issued citations which if not paid end in a lien against the home owners property. For cars where the home owner associated with said car is unknown due to residents allowing people in on there own/gate runners there cars get towed in some places others nothing is done. Your mileage and laws may vary.

The FL vehicle statute has already been changed to show this. Oddly enough FL 493 has not been. So technically you still can't do it. As a few of us here have called FL DOACS DOL and found out it is ok to do green/amber but is NOT required. I don't think they will make it required, I think they will keep it optional either all amber or amber/green with the no more than 50% they have now.

If they do go required amber/green, we will have to get rid of the light bars on our office vehicles. Part of our coverage area is Alabama and it won't be legal over there. So no more lights for us!

mad_malk
01-04-2008, 12:12 AM
The FL vehicle statute has already been changed to show this. Oddly enough FL 493 has not been. So technically you still can't do it. As a few of us here have called FL DOACS DOL and found out it is ok to do green/amber but is NOT required. I don't think they will make it required, I think they will keep it optional either all amber or amber/green with the no more than 50% they have now.

If they do go required amber/green, we will have to get rid of the light bars on our office vehicles. Part of our coverage area is Alabama and it won't be legal over there. So no more lights for us!
I guess i should point out that it can be clear as well and yes it's 50/50 on amber/green so you can do amber/clear or green/clear or amber/clear/green.

Under the wording as i understand it you can't have 100% green or amber. but again thats why i toss that stuff to legal and let them make a decision.

Tennsix
01-04-2008, 03:35 AM
This statute allows private concerns to enter into traffic enforcement agreements with the government, for the writing of "real" parking tickets.

Does your state, through specific statute or case law, prohibit a private person from stopping traffic on private property? If not, then this would kick in.



In the absence of statutory prohibition, there is implied authorization.I.C. 35-33-1-4 outlines the conditions in which a private citizen may make an arrest. Infractions, the category most traffic violations fall in, are not enforceable by private citizens. Some traffic violations are misdemeanors but those can only be enforced (by a private citizen) if the act is a witnessed breach of peace and the arrest is necessary to stop the prolongation of the beach of peace. Some property owners arrange to have their security personnel sworn as special LEO’s thus empowering them to act as LEO’s, while on the property.

I.C. 9-19-14-5.5 restricts the use of red, white, and blue lights on private and municipal property.

I.C. 9-19-14-3 restricts the use of sirens on private and municipal property.

I.C. 9-19-14.5-1 restricts the use of green lights to privately owned vehicles operated by certified EMS personnel.

There is also a statute restricting the use of blue lights to privately owned vehicles operated by volunteer firefighters but I’m too tired to look it up. Indiana vehicular and pedestrian traffic is not required to yield to amber or any other color not listed above.

FireEMSPolice
01-04-2008, 10:24 PM
the bad people on your property should fear you MORE than the police. Police leave. Security tends to remain. I dont mean to sound like an a-hole but surely you can not be serious with this? I am not saying I would not be compliant as its the guards "house" and I need to respect the rules but I have seen Security Officers who cant be taken serious and there is no way to be afraid of them. Think about it this way. An unarmed, weaponless, untrained guard is a sitting duck whereas a trained, armed police officer is someone to take serious.

N. A. Corbier
01-05-2008, 01:22 AM
I dont mean to sound like an a-hole but surely you can not be serious with this? I am not saying I would not be compliant as its the guards "house" and I need to respect the rules but I have seen Security Officers who cant be taken serious and there is no way to be afraid of them. Think about it this way. An unarmed, weaponless, untrained guard is a sitting duck whereas a trained, armed police officer is someone to take serious.

Yes, I'm very serious.

Patrol accounts, especially in residential housing, require two things:

1. The criminal element fears the mere presence of security because security consistently and negatively impacts their operations.
2. The lawful residents respect and network with the security personnel and will rely on them to protect them and the property assigned.

When I say, "We were more feared than the police," I mean it. Police can just arrest you. The security officers at the account could have you evicted and denied the ability to live in government housing for a year.

Police usually need a reason to stop you. Security needs no reason on their contracted private property. You live here? Show your ID or we throw you out on your butt. Refuse? YOu don't live here. Butt, meet concrete.

This is not the kind of thing you can do at a mall, of course. But on commercial and residential property, especially high risk property, the criminal element either laughs at or fears the security personnel.

This requires trained, motivated, and armed personnel, of course. But when the last 10 do nothing guard services have failed and you're at 28% occupancy with no re-leases, you hire one that gets results.

EMTGuard
01-05-2008, 12:44 PM
That's very different than some of us who are partoling parking lots or private facilities with vehicles which may need a lightbar. We aren't feared and we certainly aren't tossing anyone out on their butts.

BadBoynMD
01-08-2008, 03:05 AM
Yes, I'm very serious.

Patrol accounts, especially in residential housing, require two things:

1. The criminal element fears the mere presence of security because security consistently and negatively impacts their operations.
2. The lawful residents respect and network with the security personnel and will rely on them to protect them and the property assigned.

When I say, "We were more feared than the police," I mean it. Police can just arrest you. The security officers at the account could have you evicted and denied the ability to live in government housing for a year.

Police usually need a reason to stop you. Security needs no reason on their contracted private property. You live here? Show your ID or we throw you out on your butt. Refuse? YOu don't live here. Butt, meet concrete.

This is not the kind of thing you can do at a mall, of course. But on commercial and residential property, especially high risk property, the criminal element either laughs at or fears the security personnel.

This requires trained, motivated, and armed personnel, of course. But when the last 10 do nothing guard services have failed and you're at 28% occupancy with no re-leases, you hire one that gets results.

Very well written, 'cause that's how it is. I love when knuckleheads say "you think you're the police, you ain't XXXX". Then I have to educate them, by saying "see, the police will lock you up, but think about where will you stay when you get released, as when this report gets submitted you're GONE". The facial expression and the "come on man, you trippin', why it got to be like that?".

Police are criminal, we as security are more civil oriented. Gotta love our job. :cool:

Lawson
01-08-2008, 03:21 AM
as when this report gets submitted you're GONE".



Unfortunately that isnt the way it works in most housing areas... and if you happen to work in one of those areas you're going to look like a jackass and a fool when you tell that to someone, submit your report, and the housing authority continues to allow them to live there.

N. A. Corbier
01-08-2008, 10:45 AM
Unfortunately that isnt the way it works in most housing areas... and if you happen to work in one of those areas you're going to look like a jackass and a fool when you tell that to someone, submit your report, and the housing authority continues to allow them to live there.

In my experience, this is how it works with private apartment management companies who deal with Section 8 housing.

1. A lease violation is detected by the contract security company. The contract security force will make an investigation (we all know that this could be as simple as showing up and taking a report) of the violation, determining who the violator is and their relation to a resident.

2. The contract security force writes citations or otherwise documents the lease violation. If the violation is criminal in nature, as the lease documents include provisions stating that a violation of criminal law is a violation of the lease, the police attend to the scene and make their own criminal report.

3. The management, in the morning, will review the report and/or citations from the previous night. The management will then, for substantiated allegations, issue a 7 to 10 day "Notice to Cure." The Notice to Cure is a legal advisory that the tenant is in violation of the lease, and if they commit another violation of the same type in (typically one year), they will be found in breach and the lease terminated.

Some instances will result in immediate breach and eviction proceedings. Usually, these are crimes of violence against management staff (the contract security force, maintenance personnel, etc.); sale or possession of controlled substances (pursuant to HUD regulations - good bye for 1 year!); and other crimes against person.

4. The person re-commits the offense and an eviction proceeding begins against them.

For Public housing authorities, if they're not using police officers, then nobody's going to be evicted for much.

BadBoynMD
01-08-2008, 12:05 PM
In my experience, this is how it works with private apartment management companies who deal with Section 8 housing.

1. A lease violation is detected by the contract security company. The contract security force will make an investigation (we all know that this could be as simple as showing up and taking a report) of the violation, determining who the violator is and their relation to a resident.

2. The contract security force writes citations or otherwise documents the lease violation. If the violation is criminal in nature, as the lease documents include provisions stating that a violation of criminal law is a violation of the lease, the police attend to the scene and make their own criminal report.

3. The management, in the morning, will review the report and/or citations from the previous night. The management will then, for substantiated allegations, issue a 7 to 10 day "Notice to Cure." The Notice to Cure is a legal advisory that the tenant is in violation of the lease, and if they commit another violation of the same type in (typically one year), they will be found in breach and the lease terminated.

Some instances will result in immediate breach and eviction proceedings. Usually, these are crimes of violence against management staff (the contract security force, maintenance personnel, etc.); sale or possession of controlled substances (pursuant to HUD regulations - good bye for 1 year!); and other crimes against person.

4. The person re-commits the offense and an eviction proceeding begins against them.

For Public housing authorities, if they're not using police officers, then nobody's going to be evicted for much.


Again, well written, Nathan. I've had the opportunity of working for a county owned section 8 housing. They hired both county police and private security to patrol the properties, and for the year that I was there, we didn't really evict many people. Which is why, I much prefer apartment properties that are privately owned, it's much easier to get rid of the knuckleheads.

HotelSecurity
01-08-2008, 05:34 PM
Wouldn't work in my neck of the woods. Quebec has very strict tenants rights laws. All evictions can only be done if the landlord wins his case before the rental board. As with most tribunals they are backlogged. I had an ex-firend who lived most of the year rent-free. He would rent a place, pay 1 month's rent then stop paying. The landlord would go to the board. It would take 6 or more months to get a hearing. He would win. It would take another month for the judgement to be written up. The landlord would then have to hire a bailiff (sp?) to do the eviction. My ex-friend would simply move the night before the bailiff arrived. He would move somewhere else & do it all over again.

Mr. Security
01-08-2008, 07:38 PM
A written legal opinion is in order for a case like this. Local police interpretation may be advantageous, but should not be the only consideration. The courtroom is where the legal battle will be won or lost if push comes to shove, not at the local station or DMV.

As mentioned before, don't buy until you are certain.

FireEMSPolice
01-08-2008, 11:21 PM
A written legal opinion is in order for a case like this. Local police interpretation may be advantageous, but should not be the only consideration. The courtroom is where the legal battle will be won or lost if push comes to shove, not at the local station or DMV.

As mentioned before, don't buy until you are certain. Because most lawyers will be clueless as well.

Tennsix
01-08-2008, 11:43 PM
The PD’s traffic enforcement practices should conform to the court’s interpretation. That is why the PD would be a good source. In this situation, the only legal opinion that counts is the court’s. A lawyer might view the statute differently (than the court) and tender bad advice. It shouldn’t be a complicated matter. A simple yes or no would do the trick.

Mr. Security
01-08-2008, 11:43 PM
Because most lawyers will be clueless as well.

The key in my post was "written opinion." That requires considerable research and puts the attorney/firm on the record regarding the matter. The consequences for misinterpreting the law are more than sufficient to ensure due diligence from any reputable attorney.

Alaska Security
01-09-2008, 03:49 AM
amber forward, blue/amber rear... semi-standard DOT lighting setup...

I have seen security rigs in town with green and/or amber though.

Blue to the rear is legal, red or blue forward is illegal unless you're fire/ems/vol. fire/PD etc... state DOT rigs run blue/amber all the way around.

I run amber strobes to the rear on one of my POV's for safety because I pull people out of ditches plus do SAR with that vehicle as well... figure adding visibility won't hurt anything.... eventually will transition to LED's when I have the cash.

Justice_Hound
01-10-2008, 02:55 AM
amber forward, blue/amber rear... semi-standard DOT lighting setup...

I have seen security rigs in town with green and/or amber though.

Blue to the rear is legal, red or blue forward is illegal unless you're fire/ems/vol. fire/PD etc... state DOT rigs run blue/amber all the way around.

I run amber strobes to the rear on one of my POV's for safety because I pull people out of ditches plus do SAR with that vehicle as well... figure adding visibility won't hurt anything.... eventually will transition to LED's when I have the cash.

Alaska Security,

I am really interested in all this concerning displaying blue lights to the rear. I was under the impression from 13 AAC 04.100 that blue lights on vehicles were restricted to government purposes. (POLICE, FIRE, EMS, STATE DOT, LOCAL GOVERNMENTS). If Doyon (I am assuming that you work for them because you talk about guarding the big pipe) has found a loophole in this please let me know.

Thanks,
Justice_Hound

Take a look @
http://www.touchngo.com/lglcntr/akstats/aac/title13/chapter004/section100.htm

Alaska Security
01-10-2008, 08:27 AM
blue lights forward are restricted, blue to the rear isn't, just like red flashing to the rear isn't restricted... otherwise hazard lights would be illegal on 90% of vehicles on the road today.

our bars wigwag blue, with amber strobes. Perfectly legal otherwise we wouldn't have em.. and with as many ret. LEO's we have I don't see us doing anything outside the boundaries of state law.

Plus, if we respond to anything we're not going "code 3" it's for warning if we're at anything hazardous, responding to a company vehicle involved in an incident, and general traffic safety if required. Unless convoying for some reason, we're stationary if they are on.

flashlightcop509
01-10-2008, 08:59 PM
Blue to the rear is legal, red or blue forward is illegal unless you're fire/ems/vol. fire/PD etc... state DOT rigs run blue/amber all the way around.

I have an overnight Officer, who happens to drive a retired PD crown vic complete with red/blue lights; I had to review a night time surveillance tape in which he was recorded (2:00 am, empty parking garage), investigating a smashed out elevator alcove door... The tape showed him pulled up to the door, out of the vehicle investigating with his flashlight, and red lights flashing from his POV...

Methinks I'm gonna have to talk to him about that before South Burlington PD does...

Tennsix
01-10-2008, 09:44 PM
Legalities aside, I wonder why he thought it was necessary to run the lights. :confused:

Alaska Security
01-10-2008, 10:20 PM
I have an overnight Officer, who happens to drive a retired PD crown vic complete with red/blue lights; I had to review a night time surveillance tape in which he was recorded (2:00 am, empty parking garage), investigating a smashed out elevator alcove door... The tape showed him pulled up to the door, out of the vehicle investigating with his flashlight, and red lights flashing from his POV...

Methinks I'm gonna have to talk to him about that before South Burlington PD does...


BIG note: state law varies. I know Alaska state law. I could care less what those states beneath me do. ;)

Here4th$
01-10-2008, 10:42 PM
I work at the other end of the pipeline from AlaskaSecurity and several of our vehicles have red and blue light bars.

flashlightcop509
01-11-2008, 12:02 AM
Here in Vt, anything other than red / blue for vehicles unless law enforcement is a no no....

He's a new guy, and expectedly, kinda excited about things that go wrong, but even on private property, anything other than amber, clear, or green, or any combination of, can be construed as impersonating...

Justice_Hound
01-11-2008, 01:16 AM
blue lights forward are restricted, blue to the rear isn't, just like red flashing to the rear isn't restricted... otherwise hazard lights would be illegal on 90% of vehicles on the road today.

our bars wigwag blue, with amber strobes. Perfectly legal otherwise we wouldn't have em.. and with as many ret. LEO's we have I don't see us doing anything outside the boundaries of state law.

Plus, if we respond to anything we're not going "code 3" it's for warning if we're at anything hazardous, responding to a company vehicle involved in an incident, and general traffic safety if required. Unless convoying for some reason, we're stationary if they are on.

I'm not trying to sound like a broken record here and I can't speak for you, but driving in private vehicle displaying blue lights on public roads would definately make me feel nervous. If the vehicle is being used to respond to medical emergencies (i.e. the only person assigned to the vehicle is an Alaska certified ETT or EMT) it is covered under 13 AAC 04.100. If this is not the case simply driving on the roads with the blue lights warrants a citation in Alaska.

Take a look @
http://www.touchngo.com/lglcntr/akstats/aac/title13/chapter004/section100.htm

I am going to look into this further and will post my findings.

Stay Safe,
Justice_Hound

Alaska Security
01-11-2008, 01:39 AM
Every guard is an ETT.

Vehicles are provided by contracting company, have a DOT registration, and in all reality I don't really care!

If it was an issue with state law it would have already been addressed bro!

My supervisors are retired high ranking troopers, police officers.. my coworkers are all ex-LEO or ex-military to a one.

Then again, this company also is the only private company that is part of the state anti-terrorism task force...


Touchandgo has been cited as a unreliable source for code information, says my anchorage DA friend... just a FYI

HotelSecurity
01-11-2008, 08:18 AM
Pardon my ignorance but what is an ETT?

N. A. Corbier
01-11-2008, 08:29 AM
Legalities aside, I wonder why he thought it was necessary to run the lights. :confused:

Same. The idea is to, you know, investigate the area. Not to play with your blue lights.

Lawson
01-11-2008, 08:46 AM
Legalities aside, I wonder why he thought it was necessary to run the lights. :confused:

Even though he's mistaken, he probably thought it would make him as cool as I am. :D

Alaska Security
01-11-2008, 09:49 AM
HotelSecurity: Emergency Trauma Technician, basically first responder training. I'm also an EMT, and sub-paramedic in actual operational knowledge, just don't know Cardio other than "that EKG don't look right"

tacscuba
01-11-2008, 10:11 AM
I knew this thread was gonna go downhill from the time it was posted...

Echos13
01-11-2008, 01:10 PM
I am not sure if some of you are aware of the big crash on I-4 this week in Florida. It was just east of my area. Needless to say it was chaos for a while around here in regards to turning the entire place into a sub station command center and triage area. Approximately 1,500 various personnel from 30 agencies where here. Perhaps more not including contractors. The G4S jeeps ran overheads and dash strobes (green/amber) threw out the day while shuttling back and forth between areas. Unless everybody was too busy to care no one seemed to give it a second thought about it. They would not let us escort our own people in and out (PCSO or FHP did the escorting) but far as running the lights it was no problem.

Tennsix
01-11-2008, 03:30 PM
There are exceptions to every rule. That situation is such an example.

Security
01-11-2008, 03:48 PM
My question is a little off-topic, but I felt that this thread was the appropriate place to ask it in. We currently do not have any warning lights on our security vehicle. However, I was recently promoted to security manager where I work and would like to expend some of the budgetary surplus from our prior fiscal year on a lightbar for the truck. However, my question is, does anyone know if a permit is required to have security lights on a vehicle and, if so, how I may go about getting one for my department? I am in New Jersey, if that helps. Thank you.

bigdog
01-11-2008, 06:40 PM
I am not sure if some of you are aware of the big crash on I-4 this week in Florida. It was just east of my area. Needless to say it was chaos for a while around here in regards to turning the entire place into a sub station command center and triage area. Approximately 1,500 various personnel from 30 agencies where here. Perhaps more not including contractors. The G4S jeeps ran overheads and dash strobes (green/amber) threw out the day while shuttling back and forth between areas. Unless everybody was too busy to care no one seemed to give it a second thought about it. They would not let us escort our own people in and out (PCSO or FHP did the escorting) but far as running the lights it was no problem.

You were operating legally within the lights statute thats why they didn't bother you most likely.Public streets are public property and you were in performance of security duties.

316.2397
Vehicles owned or leased by private security agencies may show or display green and amber lights, with either color being no greater than 50 percent of the lights displayed, while the security personnel are engaged in security duties on private or public property.

bigdog
01-11-2008, 06:56 PM
My question is a little off-topic, but I felt that this thread was the appropriate place to ask it in. We currently do not have any warning lights on our security vehicle. However, I was recently promoted to security manager where I work and would like to expend some of the budgetary surplus from our prior fiscal year on a lightbar for the truck. However, my question is, does anyone know if a permit is required to have security lights on a vehicle and, if so, how I may go about getting one for my department? I am in New Jersey, if that helps. Thank you.

You have to get an amber flashing light permit for security services. Link to permit http://njintouch.state.nj.us/mvc/pdf/About/BLC-57.pdf

Security
01-11-2008, 08:11 PM
You have to get an amber flashing light permit for security services. Link to permit http://njintouch.state.nj.us/mvc/pdf/About/BLC-57.pdf

Thank you very much, bigdog.

official
02-26-2008, 10:03 PM
Here in Ohio, I use flashing green/amber LED visor light to the front of my vehicle and a red/amber LED lightstik in the rear window of my Saturn Vue.

I have an all amber light for the front for use while I am in Indiana since Green is restricted to EMS personnel (I am a licensed First Responder but am not on a life squad so I do not have a green light permit).

mjw064
02-27-2008, 09:29 AM
Here in Ohio, I use flashing green/amber LED visor light to the front of my vehicle and a red/amber LED lightstik in the rear window of my Saturn Vue.

I have an all amber light for the front for use while I am in Indiana since Green is restricted to EMS personnel (I am a licensed First Responder but am not on a life squad so I do not have a green light permit).

i dont understand why a private investigator would need yellow and green flashing lights anyway.

Tennsix
02-27-2008, 10:18 AM
I have an all amber light for the front for use while I am in Indiana since Green is restricted to EMS personnel (I am a licensed First Responder but am not on a life squad so I do not have a green light permit).If you aren't certified in Indiana, you are ineligible for an Indiana green light permit.

N. A. Corbier
02-27-2008, 05:07 PM
i dont understand why a private investigator would need yellow and green flashing lights anyway.

They also seem to be a security agency.

mad_malk
02-27-2008, 06:00 PM
They also seem to be a security agency.

More then likely. its a very common thing in the south east of the U.S.

flashlightcop509
02-27-2008, 06:41 PM
Apparently, I'm of a different (read covers all legal aspects) mind: I was entertaining the thought of buying a retired PD CVPI, until I found out the differences between the CV and a 9C1 fitted Impala...

My ideal vehicle outfit is (under VT law), white strobes front and rear (in the HL and TL housings), amber/green dash lights, and amber/green deck lights, with an Arrowstik mounted above the rear windshield...

darkenna
02-27-2008, 06:56 PM
Apparently, I'm of a different (read covers all legal aspects) mind: I was entertaining the thought of buying a retired PD CVPI, until I found out the differences between the CV and a 9C1 fitted Impala...

My ideal vehicle outfit is (under VT law), white strobes front and rear (in the HL and TL housings), amber/green dash lights, and amber/green deck lights, with an Arrowstik mounted above the rear windshield...

Sounds perfect for NH, as well. I'd probably go will all green, tho, with perhaps a single amber section. Personal taste.

official
02-27-2008, 07:20 PM
i dont understand why a private investigator would need yellow and green flashing lights anyway.

I hold a private investigation and security officer agency license in all 3 states.

mjw064
02-28-2008, 09:37 AM
yeah it's just always struck me as odd as to why security companies always think that they need a yellow light bar (or whatever color or design) on their vehicles.

Alaska Security
02-28-2008, 01:05 PM
given the area of responsibility, the fact that we respond to/document/conduct roadside UA/BAT duties for any incident involving company vehicles... I wish all our rigs had lightbars versus some of the rigs with simple commercial single warning strobes.

Anything that can possibly help keep some shmedlap from running me over if I'm at an incident performing the above, or first responder tasks.. I'm all for it.

ericjones80
02-28-2008, 03:37 PM
we just have yellow light bars up here....i dont see what difference a color would make if you were on private property (ie a private university)