What is their problem?

[DMS 525]

A question I have had for a long time is, what is the problem with a lot of police who have such a negative look at private security? To hear them talk, they think security can't even begin to compare themselves to police in any way, yet they act as though we are a major threat to their existience. It makes no sense.

Some of you may know me from the officer.com postings I have made for years, and a major horn-locking session I got into with a few jerks. I made a complaint to a Moderator, and he closed down the entire thread. It got to where those fools were cutting off their noses to spite their faces.

I was a police officer long before I got into private security, and I can't see why they can't work together. In fact, much more could be acheived if they would pull together more, and use each other to their advantage. Granted, there are a lot of idiots working security who have no business in the business, but that can also be said for LE.

I'm open to your observations, suggestions, speculations, and whatever else, both from LE and Security.

[Mr. Security]

A question I have had for a long time is, what is the problem with a lot of police who have such a negative look at private security? To hear them talk, they think security can't even begin to compare themselves to police in any way, yet they act as though we are a major threat to their existience. It makes no sense.

Some of you may know me from the officer.com postings I have made for years, and a major horn-locking session I got into with a few jerks. I made a complaint to a Moderator, and he closed down the entire thread. It got to where those fools were cutting off their noses to spite their faces.

I was a police officer long before I got into private security, and I can't see why they can't work together. In fact, much more could be acheived if they would pull together more, and use each other to their advantage. Granted, there are a lot of idiots working security who have no business in the business, but that can also be said for LE.

I'm open to your observations, suggestions, speculations, and whatever else, both from LE and Security.

There is a thread on here that's entitled something like: "What's your biggest gripe about LE?" I think TENNSIX, a LEO, started it. I got kicked off of O.com for allegedly posting in the "Ask a Cop" section. The real reason is that I called them on their attitude toward security and they didn't like it. When I look back on it, they did me a favor. There is so much bickering and verbal abuse on that site that I don't have any desire to be a part of it. Look at the number of threads that the moderators have had to lock down vs. the threads on this site. I think our forum is much more professional.

[DMS 525]

I remember that. But, could anyone give you a straight, sensible answer? Hell, no!

Like my wife would say, they are being catty. Talking a lot of crap about something they don't know the first thing about. We dare not say anything negative about LE to them, but they think they can throw all the manure at us that they want.

Makes you wonder if a lot of those people are who they say they are. :confused:

[Mr. Security]

.... We dare not say anything negative about LE to them...

It's not just us. Look at how they treat people who post a question under: "Ask A Cop." Maybe it's about a speeding ticket that they received or some other issue that they have with the police. Instead of giving a professional and courteous reply, they all gang up on the citizen. They have a golden opportunity to improve the public's perception of the police and they throw it away and make an enemy at the same time. Just because a citizen asks a question that may seem silly to them does not mean that they need to "slam them." If some of these cops worked in hostage negotiation, we would have a lot of dead hostages. That's also why I started the thread: "What happened to the police I knew as a kid?"

I feel bad for the police that are trying to be professional because they are fighting an uphill battle thanks to some of their comrades. :(

[Bill Warnock]

It's not just us. Look at how they treat people who post a question under: "Ask A Cop." Maybe it's about a speeding ticket that they received or some other issue that they have with the police. Instead of giving a professional and courteous reply, they all gang up on the citizen. They have a golden opportunity to improve the public's perception of the police and they throw it away and make an enemy at the same time. Just because a citizen asks a question that may seem silly to them does not mean that they need to "slam them." If some of these cops worked in hostage negotiation, we would have a lot of dead hostages. That's also why I started the thread: "What happened to the police I knew as a kid?"

I feel bad for the police that are trying to be professional because they are fighting an uphill battle thanks to some of their comrades. :(
In defense of both private and public, if we screw up, we or somebody else will not be going home that evening.
In the public sector, a traffic stop can be a life ending experience.
In the private sector, an innocent request for ID at a perimeter gate can be a life ending experience.
Enjoy the day,
Bill

[N. A. Corbier]

Honestly, I think its the "modern" LEO that has the most problem. They're required to take an associates degree. They have had it hammered into their head that the only reason they can do the things they do is because they're a LEO. Period.

They are taught to control the situation at all times.

So, you have some person who wears a similar uniform and didn't have to take that associate's degree.

[Mr. Security]

Honestly, I think its the "modern" LEO that has the most problem. They're required to take an associates degree. They have had it hammered into their head that the only reason they can do the things they do is because they're a LEO. Period.

They are taught to control the situation at all times.

So, you have some person who wears a similar uniform and didn't have to take that associate's degree.

I agree that it's mostly the "modern" ones who convey arrogance. However, there are plenty of police departments in this area that don't require a degree. Even the state police don't require it. (It's probably encouraged though)

[histfan71]

Like others on this board, I have been on both sides of the fence. I was a Reserve Police Officer for a major metropolitan city in Southern California (I bet you can guess which one) for just over 10 years. While I was a reserve with the PD I was working various full-time private security jobs. Then I was hired as a full-time police sergeant for a small private college police force. After the department lost its peace officer status I became a corporate security manager, which is where I am today.

The major issue I have had with private security is their lack of background standards and pitifully poor training in the industry. I know this has been brought up several times on this board. I cannot count how many times I have seen security guards violate people's civil rights, screw up criminal investigations by failing to protect the crime scene and other things, and generally act like badge-heavy thugs.

Many (although by no means all) security guards I have dealt with both as a police officer and a security guard at one time wanted to be police officers, but were rejected for one reason or another. The two most common reasons for rejection were unacceptable backgrounds or issues discovered in the psychological tests. They become security guards because they are attracted to the uniform and the (supposed) authority that goes with job.

Yes, I have seen some (a very, very, few) police officers act this way, but they are quickly identified and just as quickly find themselves on the unemployment line and will never work in law enforcement again. The security guard in the same situation just keeps bouncing from one security job to the other.

That being said, at least here in California, these "cop-wanna-be" security guards are found mostly working for contract companies. I have found "in-house" proprietary security organizations to be HIGHLY professional. They have high education and background standards. They (usually) offer high pay and good benefits, thus attracting a higher caliber of security professional. They have training standards and in many cases pay for training for their security personnel. These jobs also tend to be more challenging and diversified and are not just "observe and report" type of jobs.

These are the main reasons (there are a few others) that I will never, EVER, work for another contract security company. I will stay with proprietary organizations.

Whew, I feel better now that I got all that off my chest.

[Mr. Security]

......
Yes, I have seen some (a very, very, few) police officers act this way, but they are quickly identified and just as quickly find themselves on the unemployment line and will never work in law enforcement again. The security guard in the same situation just keeps bouncing from one security job to the other.....

You worked in a: "major metropolitan city in Southern California (I bet you can guess which one) for just over 10 years." and you only saw: "(a very, very, few)" bad cops? Define a very, very, few. :confused:

[histfan71]

Define a very, very, few. :confused:

I had personal experience with four in total. Three at the city PD and one at the college PD. No, I will not go into specific details due to privacy concerns. I will, however; say that two of the four (1 city and 1 college) were committing felonies and got caught. One was prosecuted and is now spending his time in prison. The other was not prosecuted (I don't know why) but she was fired and cannot work in law enforcement again. The other two (both city) were not committing crimes but were doing stupid and immature things that were policy violations, got caught, and were fired. They cannot be cops again either, but last I heard one of them was working as some sort of supervisor for a big contract warm-body security company.

The city PD has roughly 9000 officers, and I saw three bad ones. I am sure there are a few more but I can only speak from personal experience. The college PD had 12 officers and only of them turned out to be bad.

[Mr. Security]

I had personal experience with four in total....

The city PD has roughly 9000 officers, and I saw three bad ones. I am sure there are a few more but I can only speak from personal experience. The college PD had 12 officers and only of them turned out to be bad.

I think the city PD is the LAPD. Am I right, or no?

[histfan71]

I think the city PD is the LAPD. Am I right, or no?

Correct. I worked there as a Reserve Police Officer from 1990 to 2001.

[Mr. Security]

Correct. I worked there as a Reserve Police Officer from 1990 to 2001.

I know that your comments are based on the police officers that you have worked with. However, a quick browse of the LAPD web-site reveals a document entitled Consent Decree. This document had to be posted because more than a very, very, few police officers have screwed-up. I doubt that most of those officers were fired. Do I think that most of the 9,000+ police officers are problem officers? No. Do I think that there are more than a very, very, few "bad apples?" You bet.

[The_Mayor]

A question I have had for a long time is, what is the problem with a lot of police who have such a negative look at private security?

Jealousy. "Private Police" aka Security predates public police, so in effect they are actually imitating us. This is why I find it so amusing when they call us the wannabes. Puh-lease.

You find some real dueshes in LE too, why? Well, we are accountable; we scew up then we can be sued and our company can get sued. Police (in CA) are protected by statutes that absolve them from lawsuits when they are on duty. Wow, what a deal. Cover your butt with toilet paper then what happens when your hands get wet? Civil servants running about with little accountabilty (and plenty of discretion mind you). They mess up then the dept doesn't get sued, but the city or county does and in turn carries the negative stigma for the dept.

As I said, night watchmen, security, private police, bow riders, etc.... all came before the public le. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out who is imitating who. ;)

[histfan71]

Jealousy. "Private Police" aka Security predates public police, so in effect they are actually imitating us. This is why I find it so amusing when they call us the wannabes. Puh-lease.

So Mayor, how many police agencies rejected you? All I hear from you is sour grapes.

[The_Mayor]

So Mayor, how many police agencies rejected you? All I hear from you is sour grapes.

Ahh, I see you are new and are already drawing inferences. I will answer your question with ZERO, no interest in LE, never applied, Junior at a UC and I will be going in Private Investigations. More money, higher quality people.

Here, is a thread for you.
http://forums.securityinfowatch.com/showthread.php?p=3326#post3326

If I seem "sour", well I suppose I get kind of sour when I think about how much I love my country..and we got the FBI failing, and things like 9/11 etc. happening because our police forces fail us. I guess I am just strange though..I suppose I should be happy, right? :rolleyes:

[Tennsix]

Ahh, I see you are new and are already drawing inferences. I will answer your question with ZERO, no interest in LE, never applied, Junior at a UC and I will be going in Private Investigations. More money, higher quality people.

Here, is a thread for you.
http://forums.securityinfowatch.com/showthread.php?p=3326#post3326

If I seem "sour", well I suppose I get kind of sour when I think about how much I love my country..and we got the FBI failing, and things like 9/11 etc. happening because our police forces fail us. I guess I am just strange though..I suppose I should be happy, right? :rolleyes:
...but you aren't there yet.

[The_Mayor]

...but you aren't there yet.

That is an astute observation there Tennsix. :)

I got one for you: You are not in retirement yet......

Was mine right too? :D :D

[Tennsix]

That is an astute observation there Tennsix. :)

I got one for you: You are not in retirement yet......

Was mine right too? :D :D
You are absolutely correct.

[The_Mayor]

Right on!

________

[N. A. Corbier]

There's only 9000 officers in the LAPD?

NYC has a population of over 8 million and they have 39,000 police officers officers. LA has over 3 million people and they only have 9000 officers? How's that work?

Its called being very, very, understaffed. :)

[Mr. Security]

There's only 9000 officers in the LAPD?



That was in 2001. Not sure how many now.

[The_Mayor]

LA has over 3 million people and they only have 9000 officers? How's that work?

CA has the highest POST standards of any state in the country. The LAPD Officers are just of a higher caliber than the NYC, and it is reflected in their pay scale. I make more now as an SO than a NYPD cop, 28K a year...that is ridiculous...they must be scraping from the bottom.

I hear a lot of the ghetto kids in NY apply to the NYPD.

[Tennsix]

CA has the highest POST standards of any state in the country. The LAPD Officers are just of a higher caliber than the NYC, and it is reflected in their pay scale. I make more now as an SO than a NYPD cop, 28K a year...that is ridiculous...they must be scraping from the bottom.

I hear a lot of the ghetto kids in NY apply to the NYPD.
Is that a problem if the "ghetto" people are law biding citizens. By the way, what is a ghetto kid?

[The_Mayor]

Yeah that is a really cool city. I just do not see how they afford it. I mean even westchester county is expensive any where you go. I'd bet a lot have second jobs.

[histfan71]

If I seem "sour", well I suppose I get kind of sour when I think about how much I love my country..and we got the FBI failing, and things like 9/11 etc. happening because our police forces fail us. I guess I am just strange though..I suppose I should be happy, right? :rolleyes:

Mayor, I find your comment about "our police forces fail us" to be very revealing about your character.

Remember, that we do not live in a perfect world. Every system has it failings, and police work is not exempt. Also, I believe that The People get the law enforcement that they deserve. If The People want to hamstring the police with excessive limitations, then so be it. I do not want to turn this thread into a political discussion, but I personally believe in stringent controls on government power and I am very liberal when it comes to social issues. Does that surprise you Mayor? :D

Also Mayor, I see you are still a university student. When you graduate and get out into the "real world" you will see that there is a BIG difference in what you were taught in the "ivory tower" and how what you were taught applies out in the world. I have two personal experiences with this. I am a university graduate with a Bachelor of Science degree in Business Management. My first job out of college was as an auditor for an auditing firm. I found there was a vast difference between the THEORIES I was taught and how it was practically applied in the business world.

Secondly, I found another gap in the training I received in the police academy and what actually occurred "on the streets!" But that is a discussion for another forum. I will never forget the words of my first Field Training Officer, "Forget everything you learned in the academy, boy, this here is the streets!"

[The_Mayor]

I work patrol. Learning about the real world. I do not think all cops are bad. For a govt. class I did go on a ride along a few years back, and many of the cops I spoke with were racist and homophobic.

[histfan71]

I've not heard of any staffing problems at the LAPD. Is this really an issue? :confused:

Yes, staffing is a major problem for the LAPD. Ever since Willie Williams became Chief there has been a major exodus of experienced officers from the LAPD, including me. It only got worse under Parks. I left before Bratton became Chief but I have heard good things about him from my friends who are still on the job.

Morale in the LAPD has been rock bottom basically since the riots, and then the scandal with that idiot Perez did even more damage! Don't get me started on him and his cronies!

I have heard (but cannot confirm) that LAPD has about a 50% failure rate for applicants, even with the new lower standards. I have heard that several cadets are failing out of the academy as well. My academy class started with 40 recruits and we graduated 36. Combine this with a nationwide shortage of cops and you get a staffing nightmare.

Finally, LA has never been a police-friendly city. The city likes to keep police staffing levels to the bare minimum.

[histfan71]

I work patrol. Learning about the real world. I do not think all cops are bad. For a govt. class I did go on a ride along a few years back, and many of the cops I spoke with were racist and homophobic.
Unfortunately, you are quite correct Mayor, there are racist and homophobic cops out there. I have seen a few myself. Fortunately, they are a dying breed. Not dead, but dying. It goes back to what I said earlier about no system being perfect. A few people who should never wear any type of badge will slip through the cracks.

However, the strict police screening tests will weed most of them out somewhere along the line, be it during the interview, background, or psych. Since no such comparable standards exist in the private security world (I know there are a few exceptions out there, I am speaking generally) there are MANY more security guards who are racist and homophobic than cops. Combine a racist and/or homophobic outlook with a "badge-heavy" authoritarian attitude, and little to no training and you have a ticking time bomb waiting to explode. I have found several of these kinds of people in the security world and have tried to stay as far away from them as possible.

[Mr. Security]

....
No offense, but you shouldn't believe everything you hear. The only really expensive areas of the city are in Manhattan....

Brooklyn Heights will set you back to.

[Mr. Security]

If you want to go to O.COM and pick fights, be my guest...

I take it that you're referring to me, based on an earlier post I made on this thread about getting kicked off of O.com. Therefore, I'm going to set the record straight. I became a member of O.com because I like cops (most). Many of my initial posts there are pro-cop. Unfortunately, it didn't take long to figure out that many members on that forum strongly dislike and disrespect security officers. I got sick of their negativity towards security and took the offensive. I knew the consequences, but at least I exposed a couple of jerks on there. So don't start lumping me in with people who don't like cops.

If you weren't referring to me, I'll be glad to hear it.

[Mr. Security]

No, Sir, I was referring to a group of people in general. However, if you're sensitive to my complaint, I'll make an educated guess you're among those of which I speak.

I do my best never to single-out an attack on any, one individual. Freedom of speech (and the rest of our rights) probably mean more to me than you could ever know.

So, I'll restate my case, and not let you, Mr. Security, take away from my point. Those of you who engage with LE, in certain forums, simply to agitate, are NOT advancing our mission of protection. And those of you who continue to complain about cops, in these forums, are spinning an old tale that nets zero results.

I explained the reason for my sensitivity, so I'm not sure how you can call your guess "educated." Furthermore, my post doesn't derail your point. I agree with your point and I am not a part of the problem that you are talking about.

[DMS 525]

We go around this subject, time and time again in these forums on this same topic. How many threads on this site caters to the "Us vs. Them" mentality? If we spent as much time trying to work with LE instead of against them, who knows what we might accomplish.

You security-types (and I am a security-type) who think you can pop-smoke, move-out, and secure the world without assistance/training/support from LE, you have a long way to go in this industry. A long, long way.

Maybe I'll start another thread, but here's some examples of how LE has helped me and my team, sometimes going out of their way to do so: A Gang Task Force Detective set-up a four hour training class for my Troops working in a high crime area, ON HIS DAY OFF! A Beat Cop who gives his business card (and sometimes his personal cell#) to security officers in his patrol-zone. Another patrol Officer who will literally walk my S/O's through criminal complaint procedures, and help present details to the magistrate when necessary.

I'll bet plenty of you have stories like this. It's rare to see them on this site, however.

If you want to go to O.COM and pick fights, be my guest. Keep in mind you're just hindering progress, regardless of whom is right or wrong. Start doing something to increase cooperation, and quit Bitching about "Why Cops hate me, and why I hate them." It's useless whining that does nothing for anybody.
Took the words right out of my mouth. I clean forgot to mention those PD types who will show us what we need to know or want to know, work with us side by side, etc. etc. They are the ones who served to keep my faith in the police, rather than abhor them totally.

Maybe start another thread about the positive contacts we all have had with the LE agencies we have to deal with?

[jimmyhat]

DMS, thank you for the support.

Mr. Security, if I offended or mislabeled you, I apologize. Sometimes I fall into the trap of placing blame and being misinformed myself. I don't want to close ranks against my Security peers anymore than I wish to do so with LE. Maybe, we start working together as Security professionals first, and then move on from there.

[Mr. Security]

DMS, thank you for the support.

Mr. Security, if I offended or mislabeled you, I apologize. Sometimes I fall into the trap of placing blame and being misinformed myself. I don't want to close ranks against my Security peers anymore than I wish to do so with LE. Maybe, we start working together as Security professionals first, and then move on from there.

I appreciate your apology and, having looked back at all the posts on this thread, I may have "jumped the gun" in thinking that you were directing your comment towards me. No hard feelings and thanks for not escalating the situation. :)

[The_Mayor]

...at the mall

No, I am hardcore, I police Kmart. :D

[Tennsix]

No, I am hardcore, I police Kmart. :D
Thats one way to be allowed to run blue lights.

[N. A. Corbier]

Thats one way to be allowed to run blue lights.
Attention K-Mart shoppers. There is a blue light special on MOVE, DAMN YOU, in Asle 4. Again, GET OUT OF MY WAY in Asle 4.

[The_Mayor]

Please pull your persons and shopping carts to the side, keep your hands on the cart, and don't move. May I please see your shopping licensce?

[Mr. Security]

Thats one way to be allowed to run blue lights.

Is that code blue instead of code 3? ;)