Why the fascination with guns?

[Mr. Security]

I know that this can be a touchy subject. However, sometimes I get the impression that certain individuals want to be in security and/or LE because they can carry and use a gun. This apparent fascination with firearms concerns me because it reveals something regarding their motive for serving.

I like the attitude that DMS displayed in a recent post where he said that, in all the many years that he worked armed security, he never had to use his gun. This was attributed to using other skills to defuse potentially deadly situations. Admittedly, some officers had no choice about using their firearms because of the circumstances. That's not what I'm talking about.

Has anyone else noticed this eagerness exhibited by some to have a gun? If you honestly see some of this in yourself, why not speak to officers who have had to use deadly force. I'm sure that many of them will tell you that it's a traumatic event for all involved, one that you likely will never forget. :(

[histfan71]

I know that this can be a touchy subject. However, sometimes I get the impression that certain individuals want to be in security and/or LE because they can carry and use a gun. This apparent fascination with firearms concerns me because it reveals something regarding their motive for serving.(

When I worked for a college PD in Southern California I sat on many oral interview boards. It was funny to see the facial expressions on some candidates when they were told that we did not carry firearms either on or off duty.

One young (and before he made these comments, a very promising) candidate told the board (which consisted of myself, the chief, and the Dean of Students) that since state law explicitly authorized peace officers to carry concealed firearms off duty we could not prevent him from doing so.

The chief pulled out his copy of the California Penal Code and pointed out to the candidate the phrase "under the terms and conditions of the employing agency" in the statute which the candidate seems to have missed when he read the law. The chief explained in no uncertain terms that "under the terms and conditions of the employing agency" means that if department policy forbids carrying off duty, you cannot carry, no matter what state law might allow.

As you can imagine, we did not give that candidate a job offer. Sadly, the candidate got a job working for a private investigator that one of the college officers did some off duty work for also. The candidate was caught carrying a concealed pistol while on some sort of surveilence detail, was arrested and convicted. Thus permentely ending any possible career in law enforcement.

[Brent311]

That's what I love about Mississippi. We have some of the most leniant gun laws in the country, and any gun control act brought up in our house or senate is shot down in no time. Most agencies want you to carry a gun off duty to protect yourself. Here, any citizen with no felonies or serious misdemeanors can get a gun permit and carry a concealed weapon all day long!

[ACP01]

I know that this can be a touchy subject. However, sometimes I get the impression that certain individuals want to be in security and/or LE because they can carry and use a gun. This apparent fascination with firearms concerns me because it reveals something regarding their motive for serving.

I like the attitude that DMS displayed in a recent post where he said that, in all the many years that he worked armed security, he never had to use his gun. This was attributed to using other skills to defuse potentially deadly situations. Admittedly, some officers had no choice about using their firearms because of the circumstances. That's not what I'm talking about.

Has anyone else noticed this eagerness exhibited by some to have a gun? If you honestly see some of this in yourself, why not speak to officers who have had to use deadly force. I'm sure that many of them will tell you that it's a traumatic event for all involved, one that you likely will never forget. :(

I am trying to word this to not offend in any way or sound preachy(?).

What I have noticed on here is several members are interested in firearms and are involved in the armed side of security to one extent or the other.

Thus the talk among firearm enthusiasts can sound sorta overboard to a non-enthusiast much in the same way car talk, ham radio talk or just about anything can sound overboard to anyone not interested in that topic.
I have my HAM Tech liscense (KC8TMB) and can tell you some of these guys sound like they live and brath for radio.

The subject of MFg, caliber, mag capacity, barrel length etc is just part of the talk.

But...If you do carry a firearm on duty or just for self-protection you need to know all you can about the firearm, capabilities (yours and the weapons), tactics, the legal and moral issues as well as know yourself very well.

You do and it seems that you really enjoy unarmed security which is fine and by your posts it sounds as if you are very good at it.

I on the other hand would rather work armed than not. I will take a contract to provide unarmed and will execute the contract to the best of my ability.

My first security detail was in the military which was an armed detail and some of the security was heavily armed stuff as in riot shotgun or an M-14 along with a .45 This was USNavy and the Navy likes to reach out to touch you.

So as you can see I cut my teeth on armed stuff and that is all I prefer to do. Also the contracts and details I take all have required armed

Anyway that is just my thoughts on the subject.
Take care and stay safe.

[OccamsRazor]

I've seen this problem both as a LEO and a security officer. Thankfully, the police officer I saw who appeared to have a 'fascination' with guns was also a licensed gun dealer, which I didn't know on my first contact with him. None of the agencies I worked for ever had real gun nuts; however I remember a training event with several agencies....A Reno (NV) PD officer I met carried a .45 AND a .40 on his belt, carried a baby Glock .40 in his vest, and a KA-BAR knife in a sheath on his belt. He also told me about carrying a NAA .22 in his belt buckle, and about the several rifles he liked to carry in his trunk. :confused:

As a security officer, it seems that all of the armed officers I work with are professionals, and regard their weapons as tools, not toys. Some of the unarmed officers I see on a regular basis do not, however. There is definitely a fascination and wannabee factor among several of them. It is nice that the armed sector I work in requires a minimum amount of active-duty military or LEO experience; the vetting process (including that damn MMPI) weeds out more of the 'undesireables'.

Now if they could just get their act together on the background checks...I've had one to work ON the contract, one to work for the FAA, I'm in the middle of one for the FBI, etc...

Like most of the guys I work with, I regard the weapon (gun) I carry as another tool, nothing more. I check it in the morning before work, clean it once a week (or after practice or rain), and hit the range every few weeks. The rest of the time it's just another piece of equipment on the belt, albeit one with an invisible 'bubble' around which NO ONE enters ;)

Sorry for the low-quality of this post, there's a half-time show blaring in the other room :mad:

[Mr. Security]

I am trying to word this to not offend in any way or sound preachy(?).

What I have noticed on here is several members are interested in firearms and are involved in the armed side of security to one extent or the other.

Thus the talk among firearm enthusiasts can sound sorta overboard to a non-enthusiast much in the same way car talk, ham radio talk or just about anything can sound overboard to anyone not interested in that topic.
I have my HAM Tech liscense (KC8TMB) and can tell you some of these guys sound like they live and brath for radio.

The subject of MFg, caliber, mag capacity, barrel length etc is just part of the talk.

But...If you do carry a firearm on duty or just for self-protection you need to know all you can about the firearm, capabilities (yours and the weapons), tactics, the legal and moral issues as well as know yourself very well.

You do and it seems that you really enjoy unarmed security which is fine and by your posts it sounds as if you are very good at it.

I on the other hand would rather work armed than not. I will take a contract to provide unarmed and will execute the contract to the best of my ability.

My first security detail was in the military which was an armed detail and some of the security was heavily armed stuff as in riot shotgun or an M-14 along with a .45 This was USNavy and the Navy likes to reach out to touch you.

So as you can see I cut my teeth on armed stuff and that is all I prefer to do. Also the contracts and details I take all have required armed

Anyway that is just my thoughts on the subject.
Take care and stay safe.

Good points. I liked your analogy about "Hams." :)

[Mr. Security]

........A Reno (NV) PD officer I met carried a .45 AND a .40 on his belt, carried a baby Glock .40 in his vest, and a KA-BAR knife in a sheath on his belt. He also told me about carrying a NAA .22 in his belt buckle, and about the several rifles he liked to carry in his trunk. :confused:
.........

Good grief!! Sounds like he was in a war-zone instead of Nevada. :rolleyes:

[N. A. Corbier]

Good grief!! Sounds like he was in a war-zone instead of Nevada. :rolleyes:

I have seen and know quite a few peace officers who do the same thing with knives. Knife in the vest, in each pocket, on a neck chain, in the boot, etc. Usually, those are folks who either know their limitations and realize they might have to shoot their way out of a losing fight or they just like to collect guns.

The ones that make me wonder are the guys in California who use their peace officer status to buy weapons that are banned only in California, but God help anyone else who wants to own them. They write them off as "duty weapons," but of course aren't going to patrol with an Armalite .308 or a Barrett M82.

[OccamsRazor]

Good grief!! Sounds like he was in a war-zone instead of Nevada. :rolleyes:

Indeed. When I questioned this, he got a little too Colonel Kurtz for me.

[OccamsRazor]

I have seen and know quite a few peace officers who do the same thing with knives. Knife in the vest, in each pocket, on a neck chain, in the boot, etc. Usually, those are folks who either know their limitations and realize they might have to shoot their way out of a losing fight or they just like to collect guns.

Just as I've seen SO's the same way. Especially the 'unarmed' ones I was speaking of...One carries a folder in his pocket, a little Spyderco on a neckchain, the requisite Leatherman in the pouch on his belt, a boot knife and a Kershaw auto-knife in his back pocket. For the same reasons, I suspect.



The ones that make me wonder are the guys in California who use their peace officer status to buy weapons that are banned only in California, but God help anyone else who wants to own them. They write them off as "duty weapons," but of course aren't going to patrol with an Armalite .308 or a Barrett M82.

Hey, I was issued an AR-10t! Of course, I was on the 'reach-out-and-touch-someone' end of the team. They never approved the M203 though ::sniff::

IIRC, they also have to get the chief LEO of their agency to sign off on the purchase request? I never really had a lot of interest in buying my own arsenal...

[EMTGuard]

Thus the talk among firearm enthusiasts can sound sorta overboard to a non-enthusiast much in the same way car talk, ham radio talk or just about anything can sound overboard to anyone not interested in that topic.
I have my HAM Tech liscense (KC8TMB) and can tell you some of these guys sound like they live and brath for radio.

The subject of MFg, caliber, mag capacity, barrel length etc is just part of the talk.


I'm also a Tech level Ham (KC5SAS) and have been a firearm enthusiast since I was a teen. While I enjoy both my ham radio and gun hobbys I don't consider it extreme. I work unarmed security and if I ever get my gun card it would be because my company is willing to pay me more to sit on a armed post or because it would give me more options when looking for a new company to work for.
It's the same reason why I have a Chauffeur's drivers license. If I find myself looking for an EMT job with an ambulance service that requires a Chauffeur's license I'll already be that much closer to getting hired.
I worked as a corrections officer in a max security prison. Except for a short time I worked in the Field Unit I was on the compounds and in the dorms with the inmates and I was UNARMED. It was part of the job and we learned to work safely and practiced self defence to protect ourselves.
Off the job I carry concealed every day and enjoy shooting regularly at the range. When I get to work the gun comes off and is secured in the car. I have never had any desire to pack it on the job. While I can sit and talk ham radio, scanners or guns with the best of them I didn't get this job as an excuse to pack heat. I get off duty, change out of my uniform in the restroom in the guard shack and after I'm already in my car and off site do I put my gun on. Nothing facinating about it.

[EMTGuard]

Just as I've seen SO's the same way. Especially the 'unarmed' ones I was speaking of...One carries a folder in his pocket, a little Spyderco on a neckchain, the requisite Leatherman in the pouch on his belt, a boot knife and a Kershaw auto-knife in his back pocket. For the same reasons, I suspect.
I carry one folder in my pants pocket. It's just a good utility knife used for everything from slicing the plastic bags of ice we put in a ice chest in the guard shack to a blade I use to slice wire or tighten up a loose screw. IF it breaks I'm out, maybe, $10 bucks.

[Mr. Security]

I'm also a Tech level Ham (KC5SAS) and have been a firearm enthusiast since I was a teen. While I enjoy both my ham radio and gun hobbys I don't consider it extreme....

I've read enough of your posts to know that you don't have this fascination. No worries. :)

[ocean]

because it's part of my religion... :D

ok seriously. From an LEO/security standpoint, and even from a citizen's standpoint, a weapon is a tool for the means of enforcing the law, and protecting one's life. A carpenter needs a hammer, a painter needs a brush. There are many things these tools can be used for. A pistol can be used as a deterent, a means of detainment, and if necessary a way of eliminating an immediate lethal threat. Sometimes just knowing that you're armed will make someone more complient to the rules you have to enforce.

I would prefer to be armed 24/7, and have the proper training to react to a threatening situation. Why? you never know when something bad could happen.

the argument can be made that: you could get killed walking your dog, driving a car, or getting struck by lightning, that doesn't mean you lock yourself in a vault for fear of something bad happening, does it?

My answer is: That's why we have crosswalks, dog leashes, seatbelts, crumple zones, air bags, and lighting rods... we surround ourselves with the tools and systems to keep us safer.


now there might be the idiot who thinks that having a gun or a knife, like described above, is cool, and makes them feel more powerful or whatever is going on in thier idiot minds... But that's not reality. The FACT is that a law abiding citizen, cop, security officer, will need to defend themselves from a violent encounter on and off the job. It's not IF... It's WHEN. Do you have the ability (equipment and training) to do so, or not....that is the question.


If wanting to be familiar with, train with, be profficient in the use of guns, knives, and other means of self-defense as a way of keeping myself and my loved ones safe, makes me a "gun freak" or whatever.... then so be it.


"A gun, is one of the few things in the world, that if you NEED one, nothing else will do. If you need one and dont have one you will probly never need one again."

[FiveSeven]

I have over 70+ of various firearms but only a few handguns. I collect guns as hobby although I recently put a stop on that.
I currently work armed security because it pays more then regular security. In my opinion, if you want to make any money in security field, "armed" is where the $ is at.

I believe that if officer is carrying a handgun on duty he should know everything about this life saving tool and I also mean the ammo he's carrying as well.
The more you know about handguns the better you will know how to use them when it matters. Also practice make perfect, just knowing would not do you much good if you're a poor shot to begin with.
I would rather be armed then "un" anytime anywhere. If someone would attempt to take my life I'll take his first and I'll sleep at night better too... I value my life above any low life who is driven by drugs animal instinct and has no purpose in life but to cause death and chaos. And if I do get in the situation I know I'll be ready......There's a saying "It's best to be judged by 12 then be carried by 6".

At my employment, the client and employer highly emphasize on firearm training. We train twice a mount every single month and we have to be proficient with our guns. Simply put, if we don't shoot acceptable score each time and after several times you will loose your firearm and pay that goes with it. So far we had only one officer go trough that.

Our employer provides everything, from our issued guns to ammo + 50rd of ammo a mount if one want to practice on our own time.

BUT.... I've seen people who are fascinated by guns but not in good way, someone with the lack of common sense would be better working for regular unarmed "guard" duty. I ran across quite a few in the past.

[ACP01]

I'm also a Tech level Ham (KC5SAS) and have been a firearm enthusiast since I was a teen. While I enjoy both my ham radio and gun hobbys I don't consider it extreme. I work unarmed security and if I ever get my gun card it would be because my company is willing to pay me more to sit on a armed post or because it would give me more options when looking for a new company to work for.
It's the same reason why I have a Chauffeur's drivers license. If I find myself looking for an EMT job with an ambulance service that requires a Chauffeur's license I'll already be that much closer to getting hired.
I worked as a corrections officer in a max security prison. Except for a short time I worked in the Field Unit I was on the compounds and in the dorms with the inmates and I was UNARMED. It was part of the job and we learned to work safely and practiced self defence to protect ourselves.
Off the job I carry concealed every day and enjoy shooting regularly at the range. When I get to work the gun comes off and is secured in the car. I have never had any desire to pack it on the job. While I can sit and talk ham radio, scanners or guns with the best of them I didn't get this job as an excuse to pack heat. I get off duty, change out of my uniform in the restroom in the guard shack and after I'm already in my car and off site do I put my gun on. Nothing facinating about it.

I have seen posts on here that go into fairly great detail about flashlights, OC spray, batons/asp, etc...

A firearm is a tool of the trade and can be handled correctly or not just as any tool. You said if your employer would be willing to pay you more then you would get your firearm card. As I said I would work unarmed but it is not my preferance.

As I said also, just about all I do is armed security and that is what is needed in those details. If a client wants transportation I do not call a cab I get a limo or other means that I can have more control over. Also when I am hired in that capacity it is not for company. If I am contracted as a courier it is for something that again the client wants protected without the obvious armored car service.

I just like to know the capabilities of what tools I use. I also have a home woodshop and can tell you that my Delta table saw has a kerf of 7/32nds and when I am on woodworking sites there are folks that will want to talk blade rpm etc. It's all tools. :)

[EMTGuard]

2 questions. Why do you have an ice chest in your guard shack and if you're an EMT, what the Hell are you doing sitting around at a post?
The ice chest is there to have if we want ice for our soft drinks or whatever. As for the EMT question, my post is the main guard shack unless called to the on site clinic to treat a patient, do a drug screen or make a patrol.
I lucked out this weekend and only had one Tylenol call for a employee who had a head ache. No burns and no broken bones. Spent the whole weekend sitting around reading and signing in the occasional customer truck or delivery that came across the scales. Easy Money.

[Mr. Security]

.....
BUT.... I've seen people who are fascinated by guns but not in good way, someone with the lack of common sense would be better working for regular unarmed "guard" duty. I ran across quite a few in the past.

We don't want them either. :)

[Mr. Security]

.........................
I just like to know the capabilities of what tools I use. I also have a home woodshop and can tell you that my Delta table saw has a kerf of 7/32nds and when I am on woodworking sites there are folks that will want to talk blade rpm etc. It's all tools. :)

Actually, the kerf is based on the blade you have in the table saw. If you change the blade to one used for ripping, the kerf may be wider than one used for cross-cutting. Furthermore......oops; wrong forum. :D

Sorry. Couldn't help it. :)

[N. A. Corbier]

I'm definately of the "I want to know about the tools I have, and I want to make sure that if I go specifying tools others use, that I know what to tell them about the tools."

There are debates all over. Ford vs. Chevy. ASP vs. Monadnock. Sig vs. Glock. Hell, even Buck vs. Gerber. (I'll take CKRT or Kershaw, thank you.)

EMTFirefighter is right, though, everyone always asks, "Do you get to carry a gun?" Its novel. Not everyone in life is authorized by our government to carry a loaded firearm in plain sight, and get paid to do it. Others want to know how frightened they should be around you.

As far as woodworking... I'm afraid that all I can do is go on about power supplies, the virtues of ATI, and why your better off with an ITX footprint motherboard running an AMD processor.

[Mr. Security]

....
As far as woodworking... I'm afraid that all I can do is go on about power supplies, the virtues of ATI, and why your better off with an ITX footprint motherboard running an AMD processor.

Don't quit your day job. :D

[1stWatch]

I've noticed the same thing. When people ask what I do and I tell them I'm a security guard, the first 2 things they ask are "Do you get to carry a gun?" or "Are you one of those mall rent-a-cops?"

I hate hearing those phrases. The one I hate as much is the lady with a kid who points and says in her kid's ear "see that policeman over there? You better be good or I'll have him take you to jaaaail." Sh*t lady, raise your own kid and quit spreading confusion.

[jimmyhat]

I would bet there's a lot of Troops in these forums who work at sites where working unarmed is simply not feasible. Personally, those are the sites I prefer to work. I believe I have much to offer my client in those circumstances. Often, the money is better. Certainly, there is a "rush" which fills a void I've had since leaving the military.

In recent years I've made the pledge to never, ever work unarmed. It's my own philosophy that asking someone to place themselves in a position of authority, where they may have to confront people daily and ENFORCE rules and regulations, means your asking them to put themselves in some aspect of danger. And putting yourself in danger without the proper tools to protect yourself, in order to protect the clients greed and ignorance of the street is unacceptable.

Clients opt for unarmed protection because it costs less, and the liability is less. Yet, they want the maximum amount of effort put forth by the WB security force, up to and including confronting disorderly and likely armed individuals, so that the tenants feel their security dollars are being well spent.

Do I carry a firearm because I want to kill people? No. I carry a firearm because I want to live. And I want the innocent people around me, who depend on me to keep them safe to live also.

Am I a "gun nut?" Yes. I take a firearm to the shower. The label doesn't bother me. 80% percent of my day is spent in places you would never stop for gas, or take your loved ones to get a bite to eat. I eat breakfast at 2300 hrs. and dinner around 0600. I am a gun-nut fascinated with guns, but I'm more fascinated with living past my shift. I'm fascinated with the tools that keep me and my family, as well as my clients, as safe as possible.

And don't even get me started on my rights, those of which I've truly earned, whilst carrying a rifle, and U.S. stenciled on my uniform.

[Bill Warnock]

I have several handguns which I take to the range with me on a monthly basis. To save on money, I practice with a pellet pistol three times a week. I have various kinds of ammunition, the boxes of which I turn each month to keep the powder from packing. I was taught that in the USAF.
I want to know everything about each weapon I want to be most aware of both their capabilties and limitations. Practice and handgun maintenance keep me in shape.
I still run in place to induce stress and then try for the "X" or 10 ring.
My dad took me to the range when I was ten and 60-years later I'm still at it.
Practice, practice and more practice; safety, safety and more safety. The cylinder on the S&W turns in different direction than does the Colt. There are different ways to decock each. My Sig has a decocking lever.
I would not call this a fascination, rather a desire to know and understand how each weapon operates. I freely admit in expressing the awe in their power and what can and will happen if that power is misused.
Enjoy the day,
Bill

[Will]

Personally, I've been interested in firearms since long before I got into the field of security. We are unarmed on the job, and IL forbids concealed carry :(

That being said, I would prefer we were armed on the job. Won't happen, but it would be nice. In my job, we are on the lookout for people looking to blow up airplanes. So, if I see one of these people, what am I supposed to do? I don't carry any weapons whatsoever...no pepper spray, no batons: nothing. I guess I can run said person over with my car...

[IrishGuard]

I know that this can be a touchy subject........................................... .........................

Has anyone else noticed this eagerness exhibited by some to have a gun?

Good question Mr Security.

I belong to a couple of other US based Law Enforcement Forums and any Topic on guns is guaranteed to bring on a full debate, especially when it involves Officers from the United Kingdom who prefer not to carry a firearm.

[Mr. Security]

I would bet there's a lot of Troops in these forums who work at sites where working unarmed is simply not feasible. Personally, those are the sites I prefer to work. I believe I have much to offer my client in those circumstances. Often, the money is better. Certainly, there is a "rush" which fills a void I've had since leaving the military.

In recent years I've made the pledge to never, ever work unarmed. It's my own philosophy that asking someone to place themselves in a position of authority, where they may have to confront people daily and ENFORCE rules and regulations, means your asking them to put themselves in some aspect of danger. And putting yourself in danger without the proper tools to protect yourself, in order to protect the clients greed and ignorance of the street is unacceptable.

Clients opt for unarmed protection because it costs less, and the liability is less. Yet, they want the maximum amount of effort put forth by the WB security force, up to and including confronting disorderly and likely armed individuals, so that the tenants feel their security dollars are being well spent.

Do I carry a firearm because I want to kill people? No. I carry a firearm because I want to live. And I want the innocent people around me, who depend on me to keep them safe to live also.

Am I a "gun nut?" Yes. I take a firearm to the shower. The label doesn't bother me. 80% percent of my day is spent in places you would never stop for gas, or take your loved ones to get a bite to eat. I eat breakfast at 2300 hrs. and dinner around 0600. I am a gun-nut fascinated with guns, but I'm more fascinated with living past my shift. I'm fascinated with the tools that keep me and my family, as well as my clients, as safe as possible.

And don't even get me started on my rights, those of which I've truly earned, whilst carrying a rifle, and U.S. stenciled on my uniform.

Fascinating. ;)

[jimmyhat]

That being said, I would prefer we were armed on the job. Won't happen, but it would be nice. In my job, we are on the lookout for people looking to blow up airplanes. So, if I see one of these people, what am I supposed to do? I don't carry any weapons whatsoever...no pepper spray, no batons: nothing. I guess I can run said person over with my car...

You're in a tough spot, Will, and I hate to see it. Another example of Property Management trying to provide protection, without any real protection. Money and liability. Honestly, what can an unarmed, uniformed S/O do that a bellboy can't? Why not just hire Mail Carriers to protect your property? They have uniforms!!!!!


Has anyone else noticed this eagerness exhibited by some to have a gun? :(

Yeah, I have noticed that. Usually a characteristic trait in people who are also "Eager" to move towards hazardous situations, instead of running away. The same type of person I'll bet you would want on your side when things go bad.


If you honestly see some of this in yourself, why not speak to officers who have had to use deadly force. I'm sure that many of them will tell you that it's a traumatic event for all involved, one that you likely will never forget. :(

Probably about as traumatic as an unarmed S/O being killed by an armed scum-bag.

[jimmyhat]

And since I'm on my soapbox, I'll just stay up here for a bit.

Something I've noticed about many people who are "fascinated" about my "fascination" with armed protection, there is a very common denominator. Most of these people (my own family included) are in their own little bubble of security. They live in nice lil' neighborhoods with nice lil' small-town PD.'s. Lots of street lights and pretty, blue neighborhood watch signs. They drive to work when it's light, and come home when it's still light. They cringe during the first ten minutes of every nightly news cast depicting the increased robbery and murder rates sweeping across this country, but never really get too upset because they're back in bed by nine, and up at dawn ready to start a whole new, pleasant day free of guns and gun violence.

Here's the real deal. When the sun goes down, the bad guys come out, and bad-guys have guns. Low-paid Peace Officers are standing-to, ready to protect you unarmed-types while you sleep. All too often the protectors are not properly armed but they do the job anyway, like Will, as best they can. When those of you who are opposed to us "gun-nuts" being armed get your wishes, you have just given the advantage to the bad guy. Is that what you really want?

[Lawson]

Mr. Security,
I don't want to take away from your original point, because it was good and valid. Too many S/O's get into this field because of their fascination with firearms. I find mostly those types to be people who got their butts kicked daily in high-school, and often could not make the grade at being a cop.

My solution: Increase standards. make the Armed training rigorous, and exacting. make it so tough to be an Armed Officer that deadbeats don't even try. In the end, Armed S/O's can demand more money for their craft, and the clients get high-quality troops to answer their beck and call.

A fantasy, I know, but one I would love to see come true.


Something I have always said about security in general.

[FiveSeven]

Mr. Security,
I don't want to take away from your original point, because it was good and valid. Too many S/O's get into this field because of their fascination with firearms. I find mostly those types to be people who got their butts kicked daily in high-school, and often could not make the grade at being a cop.

My solution: Increase standards. make the Armed training rigorous, and exacting. make it so tough to be an Armed Officer that deadbeats don't even try. In the end, Armed S/O's can demand more money for their craft, and the clients get high-quality troops to answer their beck and call.

A fantasy, I know, but one I would love to see come true.

Could not have said better myself.

[hemi444]

One of my jobs does not require to carry a gun (weapon) but they do require you to have the state leathal weapons certificate.

[hemi444]

PERFECT: "I hereby declare you certified to use lethal force, as long as you never use it, and don't have the ability to do so."

I love it!!!
As it sounds funny, alot of companies ask that you have it and you will never use it within the company.

[Mr. Security]

Mr. Security,
I don't want to take away from your original point, because it was good and valid. Too many S/O's get into this field because of their fascination with firearms. I find mostly those types to be people who got their butts kicked daily in high-school, and often could not make the grade at being a cop.

My solution: Increase standards. make the Armed training rigorous, and exacting. make it so tough to be an Armed Officer that deadbeats don't even try. In the end, Armed S/O's can demand more money for their craft, and the clients get high-quality troops to answer their beck and call.

A fantasy, I know, but one I would love to see come true.

That would certainly help screen out the fanatics. In addition, having a psychiatric evaluation similar to what many police departments require before hiring would help to. Some will still manage to "beat the system," but it can't hurt. I liked your conclusion....good play on words. :)

[Mr. Security]

One of my jobs does not require to carry a gun (weapon) but they do require you to have the state leathal weapons certificate.

Oh there is a reason for that. You're suppose to ask the bad guy if you can borrow his gun and then if you have to shoot him, at least your legal! :D

[N. A. Corbier]

It also shows, in states that have no requirement, that you have training. Some training. Any training.

[ACP01]

Actually, the kerf is based on the blade you have in the table saw. If you change the blade to one used for ripping, the kerf may be wider than one used for cross-cutting. Furthermore......oops; wrong forum. :D

Sorry. Couldn't help it. :)
I mostly use a combination blade and... :)

[ACP01]

Jimmyhat has made many good points about armed security.
The one about how people live their lives in their own worlds is really on the money.

As you know if you have read my posts I am a paid FD Captain and an EMT.
In my city the FD runs the EMS and engines are dispatched on all medical calls as first responders and initiate care until the Medics arrive then assist them. This means we handle the shootings, stabbings, rapes, attempted murders and what ever else that people dream up to do to each other. We work closely with the LEOs and are on first name basis with most.

Bringing this experience to the security and protection field has conditioned me to expect and prepare for the worst but at the same time conditioned me to temperance, to be objective, and to do the best I can to live up to my obligations.

I do armed work because I have seen the bad.

[Mr. Security]

Keeping a gun in the house for "safety" is a two-edged sword. It can cut both ways in the form of accidental shootings and easy access for use in a suicide. I know many reading this probably are thinking: "Not me. I do this and that to keep it from happening."

I don't think that those who have been involved in such a situation thought it would happen to them either. Just having a gun at home for protection does not necessarily mean that you are safer. I wouldn't compare it to using a gun on the job. The risks are different.

[hemi444]

Oh there is a reason for that. You're suppose to ask the bad guy if you can borrow his gun and then if you have to shoot him, at least your legal! :D
http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/lachen/laughing-smiley-016.gif

[hemi444]

It also shows, in states that have no requirement, that you have training. Some training. Any training.

That is the big reason. People do not care if you have a gun, they want to see training.

[medic15al]

I would bet there's a lot of Troops in these forums who work at sites where working unarmed is simply not feasible. Personally, those are the sites I prefer to work. I believe I have much to offer my client in those circumstances. Often, the money is better. Certainly, there is a "rush" which fills a void I've had since leaving the military.

In recent years I've made the pledge to never, ever work unarmed. It's my own philosophy that asking someone to place themselves in a position of authority, where they may have to confront people daily and ENFORCE rules and regulations, means your asking them to put themselves in some aspect of danger. And putting yourself in danger without the proper tools to protect yourself, in order to protect the clients greed and ignorance of the street is unacceptable.

Clients opt for unarmed protection because it costs less, and the liability is less. Yet, they want the maximum amount of effort put forth by the WB security force, up to and including confronting disorderly and likely armed individuals, so that the tenants feel their security dollars are being well spent.

Do I carry a firearm because I want to kill people? No. I carry a firearm because I want to live. And I want the innocent people around me, who depend on me to keep them safe to live also.

Am I a "gun nut?" Yes. I take a firearm to the shower. The label doesn't bother me. 80% percent of my day is spent in places you would never stop for gas, or take your loved ones to get a bite to eat. I eat breakfast at 2300 hrs. and dinner around 0600. I am a gun-nut fascinated with guns, but I'm more fascinated with living past my shift. I'm fascinated with the tools that keep me and my family, as well as my clients, as safe as possible.

And don't even get me started on my rights, those of which I've truly earned, whilst carrying a rifle, and U.S. stenciled on my uniform.

Good post. I refuse to work unarmed. What means do you have to defend yourself or enforce your duty with if you are unarmed? As a Reserve Police Officer in Alabama I see situations that can and do go south in a heartbeat, often while subjects are seemingly cooperative. Unarmed? not no but HELL NO! I will and have taken a paycut to work an armed post.

[davis002]

Those of you that know me, know that I work the armed side of private security. Basically, working armed security takes a tremendous amount of responsibility. You have to constantly remind yourself that you might someday have to take someones life to defend your own or someone else. I have drawn my weapon a few times, and each time I prayed I wouldn't have to fire. With that said, I wont hesitate when it comes to choosing who goes home at the end of the night. My boss has said time and again that the day he takes another life in this job, is the day he parks his ass at a desk (he can't quit, being the owner and all... lol). I agree with him 100%. I hope and pray daily that my weapon will be nothing more than extra weight on my belt. In fact, whenever I am asked "what kind of gun is that", I casually say "loaded" and quickly change the subject. I don't like to emphasis the fact that i carry, as I feel that it's in bad taste. Bottom line is, I NEVER want to shoot anybody, anywhere, anytime... but at the same time, I won't hesitate to choose my life over someone who is trying to take mine. Sadly, I wouldn't take it any other way... I love everything about my chosen profession (well not everything, but you know what I mean) :)

As far as the armed security hopefuls who become security just to carry a firearm... that scares me! The weapon doesn't make you anymore special than anyone else, or anymore of a man. All you end up doing, is going home with red marks on your waist from carrying a 25+ lb duty belt, and an itchy chest from body armor.

[Echos13]

Like many of us here in the south the firearm has been part of the accepted tools of life. I have been around guns since I was a child. My father was in the USAF, mother was a WASP, grandfather was in the USN and an uncle that was a hunter. It also seemed fate always had a few neighbors that were in some field of law enforcement where ever we lived. Plinking sessions, target practice and turkey shoots always found its way into my life at one time or another. My first owned firearm was a Berretta 70S .380 and I still have it. I have fired just about everything you can think of. Well almost. Home defense was always on my father?s mind but it never came up. In those days as the old saying goes you never had to lock you doors, etc. Things changed as I grew up of course. Hunting, plinking in a giant sand pit by an old phosphate mine, etc. became routine as I got older. Not to mention the criminal was getting bolder. The law enforcement and security bug was also whispering in my ear. I was carrying concealed when it was only by county and the permits where issued by the Sheriff?s Office.

A gun became part of my life just like the wallet in my pocket. The LEO academy, a degree and a few private courses here and there and my experience was as dynamic as anyone could hope for. But I still pray to never shoot anyone. I have no hesitation of defending myself or another person?s life. I am sometimes thinking about tactical moves and situations in my mind from time to time. I read magazines, books and on-line issues about firearms. But I pray it never has to happen. I enjoy reading about the newest models to the oldest ones. Weather they are for sport shooting or serious defensive tools. I don?t wear BDUs in my sleep or go to social meets wearing camo shirts or a swamp hat with pro-gun buttons on it. When I go to gun shows I wear common street clothes and try not to bring to much attention to myself. As well as trying not to drool all over the show tables, lol. :)

I have cleared my holster many times in my life. Shot many guns in practice and sport hobbies, swung a many impact weapon. Let go a ton of CS gas and one on one encounters with a hostile person. Handcuffed more people than I can remember. Had my share of using a bladed weapon (hunting, hatchet throwing competing) and having a few encounter me. Chased down many a subject, and lost a few too. But so far it has been only cover and hold so far. If we are blessed in our life weather we are carrying for personal or profession it will not happen. But we must accept that it can. I don?t think professionals like us all here are fascinated with the firearm in a sense of the word. We or rather compelled by them. And promote the desire to understand them more. And like anything in life you have to study, learn, experience and learn some more about it. Unlike the TV remote or the lawn mower in the shed. You just don?t use it a few times and figure you?re done with it till next time. Unless your Tim the Tool Man Taylor. :rolleyes:

[Mr. Security]

Those of you that know me, know that I work the armed side of private security. Basically, working armed security takes a tremendous amount of responsibility. You have to constantly remind yourself that you might someday have to take someones life to defend your own or someone else. I have drawn my weapon a few times, and each time I prayed I wouldn't have to fire. With that said, I wont hesitate when it comes to choosing who goes home at the end of the night. My boss has said time and again that the day he takes another life in this job, is the day he parks his ass at a desk (he can't quit, being the owner and all... lol). I agree with him 100%. I hope and pray daily that my weapon will be nothing more than extra weight on my belt. In fact, whenever I am asked "what kind of gun is that", I casually say "loaded" and quickly change the subject. I don't like to emphasis the fact that i carry, as I feel that it's in bad taste. Bottom line is, I NEVER want to shoot anybody, anywhere, anytime... but at the same time, I won't hesitate to choose my life over someone who is trying to take mine. Sadly, I wouldn't take it any other way... I love everything about my chosen profession (well not everything, but you know what I mean) :)

As far as the armed security hopefuls who become security just to carry a firearm... that scares me! The weapon doesn't make you anymore special than anyone else, or anymore of a man. All you end up doing, is going home with red marks on your waist from carrying a 25+ lb duty belt, and an itchy chest from body armor.

Excellent post. :) You are the type of armed security officer that we need at posts where circumstances dictate that armed security is necessary. You would be a top-notch FTO.

[S/O245]

As far about that college police agency not allowing officers to carry concealed off duty ---> National Law Enforcement Officer Safety Act which was pushed for by the NRA, LEAA, FOP and many others the Law says that Active Duty and Retired Officers can carry a concealed handgun in all 50 States. As Far as him wanting to carry concealed i see nothing wrong with it. To ask a person to be a LEO then say oh btw when off duty you and your family are fair game is wrong and I feel many agencies and city councils needs to be suied by the NRA and many others for violating Officers Rights. President Bush signed this into Federal Law. So agencies who refuse to allow officers to carry off duty are violating Federal Law. The reason this law was signed is to increase homeland security, decrease violent crime and make sure officers and his/her family are protected more. Many Law Enforcement Officers have been killed because they were not allowed to carry off duty.

I feel Security Officers with a CCW Permit should also carry off duty if the chose to. The FBI says states with CCW have on avg 27 % lower violent crime than states with out CCW.

As far as Officers carrying more than one gun i have heard of some carrying 3 which i could care less. When the politicans can stop the gang bannggers from using any type weapon and smuggling weapons into the usa from other countries than i say the officer can carry less than 3 or what ever they carry. Some gangs have full auto weapons.

I think of the gun as a tool for my protection and others if it comes to that. I hope it dont. I think of the gun as a training tool and also as a shooting sports tool and target shooting tool. Thats what it is a tool. You onlu use a axe if you have to. Same with the gun. But for criminals who steal them they use them for others things. Or they use other type weapons.


As far as someone being a "gun nut". I guess i could be kinda one. But what is wrong with learning about the trade of firearms ? The more i learn the better iam at using them and understanding how to maintain and repair them etc. When I took my CCW training we had 3 retired police officers they all served about 40 yrs and are Police Academy Instructors and NRA Firearm Instructors. They told us that we shot better than some police officers. If you only shoot once a yr for qual then that may be about as good as you shoot in a emergency. You could say my instructors are gun nuts. But they also are very smart in tactics becuase they took the time to learn everything they could. They also survived alot of possible deadly incidents. Are instructors told use if you half ass it dont even bother carrying a gun.

As far as 308 and others. im all for Police Officers or other Law Enforcement Officers having some type of better weapon in the cruisers or trunk. Anyone remember North Hollywood Shootout ? Remember how the attackers had machine guns ? Remember how the officers had handguns and shotguns ? Now LAPD and NYPD have some patrol units with certain weapons. I think a cruiser should have secured in the trunk a AR-15 or better and 12ga tact shotgun inside the cruiser and of course the officers side arm. This is the smart thing to do sinc after 9/11 this is what we need. Better arms for good people to stop the bad ones. Because the bad ones always have some type of weapons.

[N. A. Corbier]

I'm of the opinion that every cruiser should have an M4 with 16 inch barrel (Not 14.5 - it affects the round too much) in 5.56 and a 12 gauge shotgun mounted on the partition.

The 12 gauge can be dedicated less lethal, or dedicated lethal riot. The 5.56 is for medium range engagement and anti-armor potential.

The .308 would be good for rural areas, but in an urban enviornment, it might have some over-penetration issues. There's also the "negative stigma" of 7.62mm, which put simply is that its designed to kill. Those in the military or who have studied firearms know the reason our military and police use 5.56mm. It creates wounded, not fatalities. Fatalities rally the enemy in combat. Wounded create multiple combat-ineffectives as they attempt to save their wounded instead of pressing forward and continuing the mission.

.308 kills one men, sends 4 more to kill you.
.223 wounds one man, sends 4 to the rear to carry him to safety.

[Tennsix]

As far about that college police agency not allowing officers to carry concealed off duty ---> National Law Enforcement Officer Safety Act which was pushed for by the NRA, LEAA, FOP and many others the Law says that Active Duty and Retired Officers can carry a concealed handgun in all 50 States. As Far as him wanting to carry concealed i see nothing wrong with it. To ask a person to be a LEO then say oh btw when off duty you and your family are fair game is wrong and I feel many agencies and city councils needs to be suied by the NRA and many others for violating Officers Rights. President Bush signed this into Federal Law. So agencies who refuse to allow officers to carry off duty are violating Federal Law. The reason this law was signed is to increase homeland security, decrease violent crime and make sure officers and his/her family are protected more. Many Law Enforcement Officers have been killed because they were not allowed to carry off duty.
Any PD may enact certain policies that are more restrictive than state and federal statutes, as long as said policy does not contradict the law. A PD may prohibit officers from carrying off-duty (I STRONGLY disagree). Moreover, the officers are bound by that policy. A violation of said policy would not result in criminal prosecution but the officer could be disciplined. If the officer made a good shoot, the state might rule it as justified but the PD and the officer could get a butt kicking in civil court-and the officer could loose his job.

I am a state university police officer and I would not work for such a PD.

[FiveSeven]

I'm of the opinion that every cruiser should have an M4 with 16 inch barrel (Not 14.5 - it affects the round too much) in 5.56 and a 12 gauge shotgun mounted on the partition.

The 12 gauge can be dedicated less lethal, or dedicated lethal riot. The 5.56 is for medium range engagement and anti-armor potential.

The .308 would be good for rural areas, but in an urban enviornment, it might have some over-penetration issues. There's also the "negative stigma" of 7.62mm, which put simply is that its designed to kill. Those in the military or who have studied firearms know the reason our military and police use 5.56mm. It creates wounded, not fatalities. Fatalities rally the enemy in combat. Wounded create multiple combat-ineffectives as they attempt to save their wounded instead of pressing forward and continuing the mission.

.308 kills one men, sends 4 more to kill you.
.223 wounds one man, sends 4 to the rear to carry him to safety.


The reason so many LE agencies use .223 is because this round does not over penetrate. If the round hits a wall it will shatter from such a high velocity.
Same thing happens on a human target, the round tumbles and fragments inside the body and it DOES increase a chance of fatality. For example: If the round hits lower torso, that round can split into 3 to 6 shrapnel's that will travel all over his internals ripping vital organs apart. A peace of shrapnel can travel as high as neck all the way from lower body entry hit.
Look at DC sniper(s).... How many people were shot and just how many did survive?
When police officer engages lethal threat especially with AR-15 rifle, trust me the goal and the objective is not to wound the suspect...It's to stop the threat and most likely then not more the several rounds will be fired.... Pretty much no chase of surviving that from AR 15/M16 etc.

.308 on the other had at close range will go right trough a person and will not shatter or even tumble, thus increasing a chance of surviving. Of course upper torso hit will most likely kill on the spot.

[histfan71]

Any PD may enact certain policies that are more restrictive than state and federal statutes, as long as said policy does not contradict the law. A PD may prohibit officers from carrying off-duty (I STRONGLY disagree). Moreover, the officers are bound by that policy. A violation of said policy would not result in criminal prosecution but the officer could be disciplined. If the officer made a good shoot, the state might rule it as justified but the PD and the officer could get a butt kicking in civil court-and the officer could loose his job.

I am a state university police officer and I would not work for such a PD.

We did not carry firearms on duty, so there was no way the college was going to allow us to carry off duty.

[Bill Warnock]

We did not carry firearms on duty, so there was no way the college was going to allow us to carry off duty.
Correct me if I am wrong but I thought every sworn officer active or retired was obligated to carry an off-duty weapon as a result of not having sufficient homeland security personnel. Waiver or exception is required for a state, county or city to say no. You can be retired from Florida and go to New York with your ID and nothing will be said. Since most cities and states get or desire to get federal funds, there has been no hue and cry.
Enjoy the day,
Bill

[Tennsix]

Correct me if I am wrong but I thought every sworn officer active or retired was obligated to carry an off-duty weapon as a result of not having sufficient homeland security personnel. Waiver or exception is required for a state, county or city to say no. You can be retired from Florida and go to New York with your ID and nothing will be said. Since most cities and states get or desire to get federal funds, there has been no hue and cry.
Enjoy the day,
Bill
The way that law is written, a PD stipulates who is authorized to carry. For the most part you are correct. However, there are a few PD?s who have restricted certain personnel (such as reserves and retired). It basically states that IF a PD says you can carry than you can. If the PD says you cannot carry, then you can?t. It gets more involved but that is the short of it.

[histfan71]

The way that law is written, a PD stipulates who is authorized to carry. For the most part you are correct. However, there are a few PD?s who have restricted certain personnel (such as reserves and retired). It basically states that IF a PD says you can carry than you can. If the PD says you cannot carry, then you can?t. It gets more involved but that is the short of it.

What he said! :)

In California the Penal Code section that authorizes college and school peace officer's to carry firearms, PC 830.32, expressely states:


"Those peace officers may carry firearms only if authorized and under terms and conditions specified by their employing agency."

So if the employing agency does not allow their officers to carry off-duty, they cannot carry. Although it has been several months since I have read HR 218, I do believe that one of the requirements was that the officer have permission from their agency to carry off-duty.

Here is a link to the California Penal Code section if anyone is interested in reading the entire statute: http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/waisgate?WAISdocID=8137174288+4+0+0&WAISaction=retrieve

[jakeslife]

I just recently purchased my first firearm (a Springfield XD .45 ACP). I have liked guns since I was young when I would go shooting with family. I carry a gun at work. It's just a tool, and usually why I'm at the range a lot is I like to know what tools I have and how to best use them. I do the same thing with my ASP, OC, etc. It's great to see the look on guys' faces at work when we go shooting, and the gay guy shoots better than the straight guys. :-D

I look around and see crackheads and teenagers arming themselves, and not out of self defense. This worries me. I have only had to pull my gun once at work out of self defense (Someone I was about to trespass rushed me as I was exiting my vehicle, then tried to steal the car. When that didn't work he tried to pull a gun on me), but we also respond to burglar alarms and have city park contracts (opening parks, closing, and patrolling throughout the day), which is not a place I want to be caught without one.

[N. A. Corbier]

I just recently purchased my first firearm (a Springfield XD .45 ACP). I have liked guns since I was young when I would go shooting with family. I carry a gun at work. It's just a tool, and usually why I'm at the range a lot is I like to know what tools I have and how to best use them. I do the same thing with my ASP, OC, etc. It's great to see the look on guys' faces at work when we go shooting, and the gay guy shoots better than the straight guys. :-D

I look around and see crackheads and teenagers arming themselves, and not out of self defense. This worries me. I have only had to pull my gun once at work out of self defense (Someone I was about to trespass rushed me as I was exiting my vehicle, then tried to steal the car. When that didn't work he tried to pull a gun on me), but we also respond to burglar alarms and have city park contracts (opening parks, closing, and patrolling throughout the day), which is not a place I want to be caught without one.

What kind of holster are you carrying that XD in? I want the XD for deployment use. Its not too expensive, is a 1911 variant, and has the Springfield Armory name.

[jakeslife]

I don't carry it on duty because I would have to lease it to my company. It comes with the belt kydex holster, but I like the kydex pancake holsters better.