leatherman and duty belt don't mix

[big_d]

hi all long time reader first time poster.

I have a problem I have just got a new job doing resort security in the center of Australia from airport security. So I have had to buy some new gear for it.

I have bought a uncle mikes nylon duty belt the only problem is that it has a large plastic bucle on it which means that I can't but the standed leatherman pouch on it.

What does everyone else do in this situation? Would a standed mag holder hold the leatherman?

For your information the Leatherman is the charge TTi and the duty belt is 2" thick.

Thanks for your help.


Duncan

[Knight Watch]

Duncan,

Welcome! I Have a Generic leatherman on my duty belt I use a double stack, single mag holder, well I mean the holder will hold one mag from my glock 22. (40 cal.) if I remember corectly it is a uncle mikes.

[crankloud]

Please remember it is illegal to carry a concealed weapon within Australia.
This can include some multi purpose tools (they have blades)
I got stopped by police for having a tool holder attached to my belt, and it was empty!
Maybe a quick phone call to your local police station will sort that out?

My employer does not let us carry any items of our own. (they won't take responsibility for them if something happens)

How does the resort feel about you carrying this?

Do they have a policy/ procedure on what you can carry?


Hate to see a fellow Aussie get into trouble!

[doulos Christou]

You cannot remove the buckle from the duty belt? Never heard of one where you couldn't. None of my pouches, etc clip on, they are all looped, so the buckles on my duty belt come off...Check it out.

[Charger]

You cannot remove the buckle from the duty belt? Never heard of one where you couldn't. None of my pouches, etc clip on, they are all looped, so the buckles on my duty belt come off...Check it out.

+1 to what dougo83 said. I used to have one of those generic UM belts... You should be able to undo the velcro and remove the buckles, so you can put all of your gear on the belt.

[N. A. Corbier]

e:fb

Remove the velcro folded on the side of the buckle, slide the buckle off, add your gear, replace the buckle, refold the velcro'ed belt edge.

[BadBoynMD]

+1 to what dougo83 said. I used to have one of those generic UM belts... You should be able to undo the velcro and remove the buckles, so you can put all of your gear on the belt.

+2...as I use that duty belt currently.

[big_d]

Thanks for the help guys. I removed the buckle and tryed to put the holder on but the belt is too big. So I have bought a UM single mag holder fits is nicely.

The resort recomends that we have them. Also the police don't give us a hard time as they clasify it as a tool of the trade. Only have it on the belt when doing patrols. Can't have it on us any other time.

Thanks Again


Duncan

[Maelstrom]

e:fb

Remove the velcro folded on the side of the buckle, slide the buckle off, add your gear, replace the buckle, refold the velcro'ed belt edge.

I agree... I've got a generic nylon/velcro duty belt and other than adjusting for my waist, removing the buckle is also how I add new pouches (and re-arrange accordingly), luckily (for me) my multi-tool pouch fitted the belt ;)

Stand alone magazine pouches are great for anything from cell phones to small tactical torches!! :D

[Ron Jessee]

CRIKEY! Why not get one of those GIANT Crockodile Dundee bowies and wear it right out in the open? or does a sheathed knife constitute a concealed weapon?

[K-9 Aussie]

Please remember it is illegal to carry a concealed weapon within Australia.
This can include some multi purpose tools (they have blades)
I got stopped by police for having a tool holder attached to my belt, and it was empty!
Maybe a quick phone call to your local police station will sort that out?

My employer does not let us carry any items of our own. (they won't take responsibility for them if something happens)

How does the resort feel about you carrying this?

Do they have a policy/ procedure on what you can carry?


Hate to see a fellow Aussie get into trouble!



Am I reading correctly??? You were stopped, in Lismore by Lismore Police for carrying a tool holder on your belt in uniform whilst working security (sounds like ronald mcdonald's (there's only one red-headed clown at Lismore Police Station) been out in the beat)?????

If that's the case, the Officer (like 95% of Lismore Police) needs a kick fair up the backside and told to do something constructive for the community ie patrol Goonellabah!

Also, your employer is in no position to stop you from wearing personal protective equipment ie batons, handcuffs and Leatherman, as long as you have satisfied the NSW Commissioner of Police that you have completed and passed a NSW Commissioner of Police course in baton and handcuffs. If your employer refuses you permission to wear batons and handcuffs and you are injured as a result of not having these items to use to protect yourself YOU can sue him for lack of duty of care, not to mention WorkCover NSW can/will take action against him/her too. Your employer can't say "they won't take responsibility for it if something goes wrong". They have an obligation to your safety in the workplace.

Whilst NSW laws due prohibit the unlawful posession of knives in a public place (needing to peel an orange isn't a lawful excuse) as a Security Officer you can carry a Leatherman etc as they are sold as "multi tools".

Snr Constable Mick Hogan is the best guy to speak to at the Lismore station. He is an older school copper and by the book and calls a spade a spade.


In answer to the original question, I carry (even working in Lismore) a Leatherman Wave, in a Bianchi Accumold single mag pouch (size1 I think it is).

[N. A. Corbier]

Let me get this straight. A company owner cannot instruct his employees not to carry dangerous weapons? The state has taken control of their employees away, then.

In the US, in just about every state, a company may say, "I don't care if you're certified with everything in the book and hold an armed guard's license. You cannot carry anything, including a long metal flashlight, as we don't allow weapons or confrontation."

And when the guard is injured, the company is Scott-free because the guard was "obviously" confrontational.

The idea of being able to wear weapons against company policy is so very, very, odd to me.

[doulos Christou]

So...carrying anything in its sheath/holster/case is considered concealed in Austrailia? That seems incredibly ridiculous. Also, no knives in a public place? Thank God I'm from TEXAS...

[N. A. Corbier]

Most commonwealth nations have mirrored the UK Offensive Weapons Act, which prohibits offensive weapons (offensive, in this case, seems to mean offending the Crown) in public.

[doulos Christou]

Most commonwealth nations have mirrored the UK Offensive Weapons Act, which prohibits offensive weapons (offensive, in this case, seems to mean offending the Crown) in public.

I almost though Austrailia would be a good place to live. Not with those weapons policies...

[flashlightcop509]

Let me get this straight. A company owner cannot instruct his employees not to carry dangerous weapons? The state has taken control of their employees away, then.

"I don't care if you're certified with everything in the book and hold an armed guard's license. You cannot carry anything, including a long metal flashlight, as we don't allow weapons or confrontation."

Tell me about it...

I'm in the hospitality industry, and working nights, a good 4 cell maglight is essential; However, answer a guest service call or a noise complaint with 3 lbs. of metal bar on your hip and people start feeling "intimidated"...

[K-9 Aussie]

Let me get this straight. A company owner cannot instruct his employees not to carry dangerous weapons? The state has taken control of their employees away, then.

In the US, in just about every state, a company may say, "I don't care if you're certified with everything in the book and hold an armed guard's license. You cannot carry anything, including a long metal flashlight, as we don't allow weapons or confrontation."

And when the guard is injured, the company is Scott-free because the guard was "obviously" confrontational.

The idea of being able to wear weapons against company policy is so very, very, odd to me.


Yes, a company can ask you not to carry what is called "offensive weapons" here ie batons and handcuffs, however the NSW Prohibitted Weapons Act lawfully entitles a licenced security officer whilst acting in the course of his/her employment only to posses and use prohibitted weapons ie batons and handcuffs only as long as they have completed a recognised course in batons and handcuffs approved by the NSW Commissioner of Police.

There is no law giving an employer the power to demand that you can not wear "offensive weapons" here. Carrying "offensive weapons" here doesn't allow someone to use the excuse they claimed the security officer was confrontational due to possesing these items and then assaulting them. If you are seriously injured here as a security officer, WorkCover NSW investigates the mater and if they decided your employer was negligent in their "duty of care" for not allowing you to carry batons and/or handcuffs they (the employer) can face serious criminal charges, not to mention civil lawsuit from the injured security officer.

It appears tho, that we may have similar laws to the USA in the near future tho in regards to what you stated earlier, but at this present moment in time it's not the case.

Firearms here are a different story, and you can only carry a firearm under extremely strict measures. Here in NSW we are now only allowed 9mm calibre handguns only, and you must complete a 109hr course and other new sweeping changes have come into play with this too.

We are not premitted here to posses OC sprays as they are illegal items for anyone other than Police and Sheriffs.

dougo83:- Yes any weapon here not on display ie batons, handcuffs, firearms etc are considered a "concealed weapon".

[Maelstrom]

w00t for WorkCover! :D

If you were sent you off to do deliveries in a truck without brakes, that's negligent... sending off a SO to work 1-up at a potentially hazardous site with nothing to assist the SO to defend themselves (as defined by Government statutes) is equally as negligent IMHO ;)

The only thing preventing the use/carrying of batons is company policy (with the exception of State Law), my newly acquired 21" ASP goes to work whenever I do now, no exceptions :)

[N. A. Corbier]

So, why can't they simply fire you for violating company policy by carrying a weapon they told you not to?

[K-9 Aussie]

So, why can't they simply fire you for violating company policy by carrying a weapon they told you not to?


They can, no issues there however the employee could take legal action for unfair dismissal due to the employer providing an "unsafe workplace".

[Maelstrom]

So, why can't they simply fire you for violating company policy by carrying a weapon they told you not to?

Wouldn't you prefer the option of potential dismissal/reprimand to one day finding yourself cornered (with no means of retreat) by an assailant high on drugs intent on doing you harm, with nothing but your humour to defuse the situation?

I guess (unless you were lucky or a skilled martial artist) as you lay there bleeding from an injury, you could then take the time to contemplate the company's equipment policy...

[JSam21]

Just because the law doesn't state that an employer can ban an employee from carrying a weapon doesn't mean they can't.

[doulos Christou]

dougo83:- Yes any weapon here not on display ie batons, handcuffs, firearms etc are considered a "concealed weapon".

Even a knife or multi-tool in the manufacturer's labeled case? Seems a little extreme if I'm reading this right. Anyone who can't tell what a Leatherman is by the case that clearly states the contents is a moron.

[K-9 Aussie]

Even a knife or multi-tool in the manufacturer's labeled case? Seems a little extreme if I'm reading this right. Anyone who can't tell what a Leatherman is by the case that clearly states the contents is a moron.


No that's fine, as long as it's not inside the pocket of your pants etc. If it's in a pouch attached to your belt that's fine.

[Maelstrom]

Just because the law doesn't state that an employer can ban an employee from carrying a weapon doesn't mean they can't.

Ban you from carrying Government sanctioned/approved/authorised security equipment? I don't see protective gear like a baton is any different from say goggles or a face mask when dealing with toxic/hazardous chemicals or welding etc.

Perhaps in your 'neck of the woods' such a company ultimatum/policy is commonplace, but under our Safe Work Places legislation... here that company is a potential law suit waiting to happen (providing you can prove that such equipment was required) ;)

FWIW I reckon a 'defensive blow' from my 6D cell torch would do more damage than the 21" ASP ;)

[N. A. Corbier]

In the United States, OSHA does not recognize "violent encounters" as an occupational hazard for security and gaming agents. As such, if the company does not wish you to carry such weapons, they can terminate you for violating company policy.

This is a "for cause" termination, and means you will not get unemployment insurance payments.

Additionally, as most firms have a strict "you are not to become confrontational" requirement, the carrying of weapons is not a "needed safety device" as you are not to be placed in a position where you could use them, since you are not to become confrontational and are to flee the scene of a confrontation.

This is one of the many ways the security firms keep the profit margins high, and the liability down. If they let one guard carry a baton, they would have to ensure that everyone at the relative danger level does, and train all of them in the proper use of the device.

[K-9 Aussie]

In the United States, OSHA does not recognize "violent encounters" as an occupational hazard for security and gaming agents. As such, if the company does not wish you to carry such weapons, they can terminate you for violating company policy.

This is a "for cause" termination, and means you will not get unemployment insurance payments.

Additionally, as most firms have a strict "you are not to become confrontational" requirement, the carrying of weapons is not a "needed safety device" as you are not to be placed in a position where you could use them, since you are not to become confrontational and are to flee the scene of a confrontation.

This is one of the many ways the security firms keep the profit margins high, and the liability down. If they let one guard carry a baton, they would have to ensure that everyone at the relative danger level does, and train all of them in the proper use of the device.


Thanks for explaining what happens in the US :) It's interesting to see the differences and why there is differences.

I can certainly see the the "US side" to this, and in all honesty with some of the guards over here there have been a large number of guards whom have gone out and miss used batons and handcuffs, however they then have been charged by Police and found themselves before a criminal court, and often a civil court too.

Over here, OH&S (Occupational Health & Safety, and I think your governing body is OSHA?) is basically the biggest issue with employment. I know one security officer at this moment in time who is actually out with a medical certificate on workers compensation for stress due to the fact he was placed in a violent location with no support or backup. This is a common occurence over here too.

99% of security officers here in Australia work alone, with little or zero support or backup if a situation arises. These days most security officers simply carry a mobile phone, BUT are expected as per their SOP's to intervein in fights, and take down violent criminals. The amount of security officers that have been seriously injured has grown dramatically, as to workers compensation premiums.

This is what has led NSW Police to bring in new changes for new security officers in the industry, which written instructions must be given to security officers with these kept by the business owner for Police to inspect, and new security officers must work with a security officer with more than 1 year experience.

In NSW, if the business is using guns and/or dogs, it is compulsory for that company to have a minimum of $10m public liability coverage, otherwise your business licence is revoked. Most clients these days will not hire a security company here with proof by way of certificate of currency for workers compensation, and public liability.

It does appear tho we will be going down the same route as the US tho in years to come with batons and handcuffs. The main reason here is to control these items in the public more than anything. The problem at present is that as long as you have a current NSW Security Licence you have the authority to purchase batons and handcuffs, but can't use them on duty only until you complete a course in how to use them. What has been happening is that basically all guards go and buy these, but over the years these people leave the industry and their security licences expire and they now have "prohibitted weapons" in their possesion. What is going to be bought in here is that only the business licence holder can purchase these, and them issues them to the staff so the business owner is responsible for them at all times.

[N. A. Corbier]

Thanks for explaining what happens in the US :) It's interesting to see the differences and why there is differences.

I can certainly see the the "US side" to this, and in all honesty with some of the guards over here there have been a large number of guards whom have gone out and miss used batons and handcuffs, however they then have been charged by Police and found themselves before a criminal court, and often a civil court too.

Over here, OH&S (Occupational Health & Safety, and I think your governing body is OSHA?) is basically the biggest issue with employment. I know one security officer at this moment in time who is actually out with a medical certificate on workers compensation for stress due to the fact he was placed in a violent location with no support or backup. This is a common occurence over here too.

99% of security officers here in Australia work alone, with little or zero support or backup if a situation arises. These days most security officers simply carry a mobile phone, BUT are expected as per their SOP's to intervein in fights, and take down violent criminals. The amount of security officers that have been seriously injured has grown dramatically, as to workers compensation premiums.

This is what has led NSW Police to bring in new changes for new security officers in the industry, which written instructions must be given to security officers with these kept by the business owner for Police to inspect, and new security officers must work with a security officer with more than 1 year experience.

In NSW, if the business is using guns and/or dogs, it is compulsory for that company to have a minimum of $10m public liability coverage, otherwise your business licence is revoked. Most clients these days will not hire a security company here with proof by way of certificate of currency for workers compensation, and public liability.

It does appear tho we will be going down the same route as the US tho in years to come with batons and handcuffs. The main reason here is to control these items in the public more than anything. The problem at present is that as long as you have a current NSW Security Licence you have the authority to purchase batons and handcuffs, but can't use them on duty only until you complete a course in how to use them. What has been happening is that basically all guards go and buy these, but over the years these people leave the industry and their security licences expire and they now have "prohibitted weapons" in their possesion. What is going to be bought in here is that only the business licence holder can purchase these, and them issues them to the staff so the business owner is responsible for them at all times.

Its the same over here, 99% of all security are unarmed (no weapons), alone, and have no communications or support other than calling 911 from the client's phone.

Interesting concept. This is like buying an AR in California if you're a law enforcement officer, then you get fired or quit or retire and have an illegal weapon.

[big_d]

Wow I want to move to N.S.W down here in S.A we can't carry a batton unless we carry a fire arm. With us on duty. So we have to be certified in fire arms and have to have a legal reason why we need them at our site.

Maybe thats why most S.A security officers carry 6D Maglites.

Its intresting to note the different laws between states. Like over in W.A Oc spray is legal for everyone.

[ValleyOne]

Maybe thats why most S.A security officers carry 6D Maglites.
:eek: Holy Smokes! Are you sure that's a flashlight and not a baseball bat with a flashlight duct taped to the end? Machined aircraft aluminum tube packed with 6 D sized batteries will have the same effect, damn that's huge. Doesn't it bang the hell outta thier legs when they walk around? I don't see how anyone could run with that thing on their belt...

Though I have seen one or tow of them... Funny looking

Odd, that your lawyers down there haven't caught on that this is actually a blunt instrument.

[Maelstrom]

Machined aircraft aluminum tube packed with 6 D sized batteries will have the same effect, damn that's huge. Doesn't it bang the hell outta thier legs when they walk around?

Odd, that your lawyers down there haven't caught on that this is actually a blunt instrument.

I'm not clear on S.A. law concerning the 6D maglites (and similar), I have been informed that in Victoria whilst you can carry a 6D (although it would most likely fall into the 'dangerous articles' category)... anything used in self defence larger than say a 3 cell, is considered extreme & litigable ;)


I don't see how anyone could run with that thing on their belt...

It certainly does get up a bit of a pendulum motion hanging off you duty belt, either knocking against the side or back of your leg... suffice to say when you've got to run you carry it OR hold it (to stop it swaying), yet another reason for my building/modifying a 'high output' 3D cell version :D

[N. A. Corbier]

I carried a 6D maglite once. A long, long time ago. You basically drew it to run with it.

[Maelstrom]

I carried a 6D maglite once. A long, long time ago. You basically drew it to run with it.

What did you eventually upgrade to? :)

[Ron Jessee]

a SWAT entry ram? jeeze that's a huge kleig light

[N. A. Corbier]

I upgraded to a Streamlight Stinger. The 6D was given to me by a friend of mine at the time, because he had literally no use for it. It lasted about a week before I bought a Stinger.

Now days, Streamlight XP-20LED and a Streamlight Stinger LED if I need a uniform flashlight. Stinger stays on belt at all times, hopefully charged, and the XP-20LED is the "sudden encounter" flashlight.

You know, the one you have in your hand when doing things like searching a building or whatnot, where there may be a sudden encounter with something that needs smacking to allow you to gain distance. :)

[Maelstrom]

Now days, Streamlight XP-20LED and a Streamlight Stinger LED if I need a uniform flashlight. Stinger stays on belt at all times, hopefully charged, and the XP-20LED is the "sudden encounter" flashlight.

You know, the one you have in your hand when doing things like searching a building or whatnot, where there may be a sudden encounter with something that needs smacking to allow you to gain distance. :)

I hear ya' on that one! :D

Other than being used for a 'ROP' flash light mod, the 6D may simply end up living in the car's boot... the spec's for the XP20 are quite impressive, perhaps I could add one to my ever burgeoning collection LOL :D

[Penthrox]

Wow I want to move to N.S.W down here in S.A we can't carry a batton unless we carry a fire arm. With us on duty. So we have to be certified in fire arms and have to have a legal reason why we need them at our site.

Maybe thats why most S.A security officers carry 6D Maglites.

Its intresting to note the different laws between states. Like over in W.A Oc spray is legal for everyone.

I have done Security in SA for 3 and a half years. This includes patrols, aviation screening, cash in transit and crowd control and in that time throughout my experience with many different companies I have never seen a security officer with a 6 d cell maglite. The reason being they are illegal. Comes under the a certain prohibited item law.

In response to your statement about WA pepper spray laws, once again you are mislead or misinformed. It is actually not legal for "anyone" to carry. It is legal if you are a CITIZEN of WA so any joe blogg's can have it but it is ILLEGAL for any Security or Crowd Control officer to have it because it falls under the Prohibited Weapons Act.

Hope this clears up some confusion you seem to have.

[big_d]

Im sorry I was missimformed. Thanks for clearning that up. So in W.A you can carry CS if you are a citizen but not when on duty. What a stupid law. Thanks for clearning up about the 6D mag light. I was told by a few mates that do patrol work that they carry them. Will tell them that they are illegal.

Does anyone know about the N.T law can I carry a 6D Mag Light up there. If not I will have to get a new duty light.

Thanks Guys

Duncan

[Maelstrom]

I have never seen a security officer with a 6 d cell maglite. The reason being they are illegal. Comes under the a certain prohibited item law.

I'm curious what information you base that point-of-view on? according to the S.A. Attorney-General's website (details HERE (http://www.legislation.sa.gov.au/lz/c/r/summary%20offences%20(dangerous%20articles%20and%2 0prohibited%20weapons)%20regulations%202000/current/2000.269.un.pdf)) listing the prohibited/restricted weapons, it fails to mention maglites period, interestingly enough the Victoria Police web site has a similar register of prohibited/restricted weapons/articles and also fails to mention maglites (and similar aluminium torches) whilst detailing blades, batons, sprays, audio~chemical deterrents, spears & a various assortment of weaponry ;)

Thus I propose to you that it's not illegal under legislation but potentially under Judicial interpretation, especially when used as anything but a flashlight :cool:

[N. A. Corbier]

Hell, according to that Act, straight batons (billies or sticks) should be legal. It only makes the Expandable Baton prohibited, does it not?

[bigdog]

Hell, according to that Act, straight batons (billies or sticks) should be legal. It only makes the Expandable Baton prohibited, does it not?

According to the act a licensed security agent can carry an expandable baton as long as they are also licensed to carry a firearm.

13—Persons employed in the business of protecting or guarding property
A person—
(a) who is employed to protect or guard property by a person who carries on the
business of protecting or guarding property; and

(b) who is authorised by a licence granted under the Security and Investigation
Agents Act 1995 to protect or guard property as a security agent; and

(c) who is the holder of a firearms licence under the Firearms Act 1977
authorising the possession and use of a handgun in the course of employment
by a person who carries on the business of guarding property; and

(d) whose duties of employment in protecting or guarding property reasonably require the possession of an extendable baton; and

(e) who has completed a course of instruction approved by the Commissioner of
Police in the proper use of extendable batons and has been awarded a
certificate of competency by the person conducting the course,
is exempt from the offences of possession and use of an extendable baton under
section 15(1c)(b) of the Act in the course of his or her employment in protecting or
guarding property if—
(
f) the baton can only be extended by gravity or centrifugal force; and

(g) the exempt person has not been found guilty by a court of an offence
involving the illegal possession or use of an extendable baton, a firearm or
any other weapon; and

(h) the exempt person does not carry the baton when he or she is engaged in
crowd control; and
(i) as soon as reasonably practicable after the exempt person uses the baton (as opposed to carrying the baton) in the course of his or her duties, he or she
provides his or her employer with a written report setting out the date on
which, and the reasons why, he or she used the baton

[N. A. Corbier]

The Act doesn't say anything about straight sticks, only expandable batons. Is there somewhere in there that talks about straight sticks, clubs, or billies?

[Maelstrom]

The actual wording in that particular document doesn't mention (non-telescopic) batons per say, but legal interpretation (Judicial) would definitely draw parallels ;)

In complete contrast, the Victorian Police Weapon Identification search engine details both straight stick & extendible batons as follows...


* Extendible Baton/ASP/Gravity baton - Prohibited Weapon & Prohibited Import

* Baton/Club/Nightstick - Controlled Weapon


I suppose the 6D Maglite (or similar) could be considered a 'tool' thus placing it in the Dangerous Articles category, along with hammers & baseball bats ;)

Victoria Police Weapons Identification Search (http://www.police.vic.gov.au/weaponsid/Content/weaponsearch.asp)

[NRM_Oz]

Anything can be uses a weapon with the right means but the use of multi-tools and the like is a grey area as it can be argued that the item is holstered and in full view not in a pocket. By law in NSW a knife blade over 1.5" is a concealed weapon and a please explain unless you can prove your valid reason for having it on your person.

As for a pouch for your leatherman (my super tool is 12 years old now) and as the case is on a duty belt (just in case for a rainy day) I found that a Swiss Army Tool (leather case) was the same size and better quality and BLACK too.

I personally never liked loading up my duty belt with too much stuff as there was always an issue in need to move fast and I have seen a few moons from over supplied security officers running as their trousers fall down with the whole Uncle Mike's catalogue on their duty belts.

[N. A. Corbier]

If their trousers are falling down, their pants didn't fit correctly, nor were they wearing their belts correctly. :)

[NRM_Oz]

Those wearing the full catalogue (why you need 2 maglites I don't know) are either catalogue models or well overpaid. 1 x NYE I was working as Ops Mgr for my host company (contract) and as we our clients had paid mega $$$ for private sets ups right on the harbour to watch the fireworks, I had 3 radios on my belt (national parks, site and company trunk radio).

Around 2030 I spotted 30 people jumping the 10 foot fences to get access to the private functions to get closer to the fireworks and we had to arrest them before they disappeared. Pursuing them with that much weight was not so bad since I had 2 radio carriers (learnt from last year) and held the 3rd one as my 2IC went tumbling down the grass path with his pants around his ankles (too much weight on his belt and not arranged right. I later discussed with him the advantages of velcro inner belts.

[Maelstrom]

I later discussed with him the advantages of velcro inner belts.

I've seen those around, but didn't understand/perceive their advantages over the regular belt keeper scenario, in your opinion how are they more effective? :confused:

[NRM_Oz]

I have only ever worn the leather inner belts so if you have put on a few kgs or lost a few kgs or wearing another shirt underneath you can adjust it. Now I sneak a Garrison 1 inch belt under my suit so it still looks good but will hold extra gear if need to carry a radio or anything else. Had 1 brand with a dress belt that was over $100 US but it was crap and looked cheap.