foot pursuit limited

[hemi444]

When I was working LP we had a policy in place that after the shopplifter stepped foot on the parking lot pavement from the side walk we where to end the chase. Does anyone else have that type of policy in there LP depts?

[Serpico]

When I was working LP we had a policy in place that after the shopplifter stepped foot on the parking lot pavement from the side walk we where to end the chase. Does anyone else have that type of policy in there LP depts?

Nope. As long as they didn't run across a busy thoroughfare, we were to stay on them at all costs.

[wisconsinite]

When I was doing casino Security, we were permitted by management to pursue the perp, even off property, on city streets, depending on the severity of the crime. Most of the pursuits involved purse snatchings, assault & battery, theft of house cash, chips, etc. If it was a vehicle theft/vandalism, the security mobile trucks were only permitted to follow the suspects to the property lines, and relay vehicle information and direction of travel to city PD.

[hemi444]

When I was doing casino Security, we were permitted by management to pursue the perp, even off property, on city streets, depending on the severity of the crime. Most of the pursuits involved purse snatchings, assault & battery, theft of house cash, chips, etc. If it was a vehicle theft/vandalism, the security mobile trucks were only permitted to follow the suspects to the property lines, and relay vehicle information and direction of travel to city PD.
http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/waffen/violent-smiley-010.gif

[wisconsinite]

LOL..... hemi, NICE icons! is that a hatchet or a tomahawk that's being used to chase with?

[hemi444]

LOL..... hemi, NICE icons! is that a hatchet or a tomahawk that's being used to chase with?
Not sure yet still trying to find out

[N. A. Corbier]

Sears LP, who I interviewed awhile back out of boredom (Its amazing when you spot the LP Chief and just chat with him...), stated that they weren't allowed to chase off the side walk. Corporate was afraid of traffic striking the suspect (lawsuit) or the LPO (Worker's Compensation).

I think a "due regard for safety of all" policy is better than a out and out "terminate pursuit" policy. BUT, that means additional verifyable training. Why? Because you have to be able to show that you taught how to determine due reguard in pursuits. :)

While politically insenstive, that was funny as hell.

http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/waffen/violent-smiley-010.gif

[1stWatch]

Sears LP, who I interviewed awhile back out of boredom (Its amazing when you spot the LP Chief and just chat with him...), stated that they weren't allowed to chase off the side walk. Corporate was afraid of traffic striking the suspect (lawsuit) or the LPO (Worker's Compensation).

I think a "due regard for safety of all" policy is better than a out and out "terminate pursuit" policy. BUT, that means additional verifyable training. Why? Because you have to be able to show that you taught how to determine due reguard in pursuits. :)

While politically insenstive, that was funny as hell.

http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/waffen/violent-smiley-010.gif

I think I heard a while back they adapted that policy after one of their LPO's got struck by a car or something like that. I agree with your synopsis of what a good policy would entail.

[Echos13]

Back in the good old days when Maas Brothers was in full swing pursuits where at the discretion of the SD. If it was going to be a long chase and there was only one assigned SD to a store the policy was to pursue only a few blocks then brake off. Leaving the store uncovered for too long was asking for trouble. Because sometimes the thefts where to pull the SD away from the store for bigger hits. Most carried radios while others use to call from pay phones to the dispatch office if the pursuit stalled or slowed down. Some chases resulted in maintaining surveillance of the subject in what was called tracking pursuits. As long as the evidence was still with the subject the chase was on. When there where stores with more than one or two SD one would use his POV and follow the chase at a distance. Granted liability was never thought about during those days. But I guess most of that would be taboo now. Some SDs ended up all the way across town. If the subject tossed or dropped the merchandise outside the store the chase was terminated. There was a law at one time I believe to where if action of concealing or hiding the merchandise inside the store deemed unusual or unnatural could allow a SD to make an apprehension before the subject left the store. I can?t for the life of me recall what the law was called. It was a long time ago in a security galaxy far, far away.

[astorms]

Once again, things here in Canada are a little different. In order to apprehend a shoplifter, they must make an attempt to leave the premises, which usually means stepping out of the store, into the parking lot (or mall) and fleeing. Whether they run or walk is a different story. If they are walking, then apprehension is simple, unless they resit. But that is a different topic.

If they run, every retailer in Canada has a different policy. Some say observe and report, some say deter the theft in the first place, some say run 'em down.

If the company's policy is not to chase, and the LPO chases, then they might be out of a job. If they chase, and get stabbed or hit by a car, then what good are they now?

I believe that it is not worth a life to retrieve a pack of batteries, or even an LCD tv. The essence of loss prevention is in the prevention. Good retailers have LP programs that put staff safety, and good customer service first. I once worked for an LP firm in Toronto, Ontario, whose madate was to sneek around the store, hide behind displays, and actively hunt for shoplifters. There would be one LPO on the floor, and one in the office. While that one LPO is hunting, who knows how many other people are stealing. On the flip side, I was the LP/Inventory manager for a large electronics retailer for 4 years, who's policy was to 'customer service to death' possible shoplifters. Their theory of great floor awareness,employee buy in and excellent procedures resulted in an overall shirnkage of only -.29% in 2004 across the country.

I'm not saying that one method works better than another. But retailers should focus more on preventing the problem before entering the store, rather than trying chase the problem out the door.

[wisconsinite]

Astorms, I agree with some of your statements, even WITH you being a Kanuck! LOL...just kidding! Anyhoo, I agree there must be an emphasis on the prevention versus the loss. In some Wal-mart stores in America, actual police departments have set-up substations IN the store, usually near the entrance of the store. I think having those substations IN the stores lessens thefts by acting as a visual deterrant and response time is near nill. Another way to focus on the prevention, is to have an excellent camera surveillance system in use. Following possible shoplifters by camera is a lot easier than having 1 or 2 plainclothes LP personnel following shoplifters from place to place. Back in my day, a store had one way mirror walls, that we used to watch people incognito. I agree too that "customer serviceing" possible shoplifters "to death" is good too, but in this day and age when everyone is lawsuit crazy, they'll claim employees are harassing them, or are being racially profiled . Another way to focus on the prevention is to install magnetic security tags on all the high priced items, (leather jackets, jewelery, electronics, sporting goods, tools and hardware, etc, etc.) There are lots of things you can do to prevent theft. But also be aware that NO store is impenetrable. Thieves are gonna do what they do. Thats why LP and Security needs to be diligent. Instead of having a policy of allowing them to step outside...change that to, allowing them to make it past the cash registers. That defines them as attempting to elude purchase also. Plus, they're still in the store, making apprehension alot easier and safer. Lastly, make SURE somebody in your LP Dept visually witnesses the crime, whether it be a plainclothes, or camera surveillance person. Theres nothing more embarassing than detaining someone for half an hour, come to find out they have nothing on their persons. And USE your radios to coordinate location and activity. UGH, I'm just full of ideas! Do I need to come up there and show you how to do all this?? LOL, just kidding, again!
Best of Luck

[hemi444]

Just another wonder here about other state laws, but if a S/L fights to get away is it considered robbery? I understand In philly if you run or fight with LP its automatic robbery. If you step out of philly it's not.

[astorms]

By Canadian law(s), if a s/l fights, it is considered assault, or resisting arrest. If they use a weapon (knife, bat, etc), or cause 'grievous bodily harm' then it would be aggrivated assault. If a gun is involved, well, that is a totally different story. Could go to aggrivated assault, or to 'using a firearm in the comission of an offence'. All depends on the circumstances of the arrest, and what actually occurrs.

Adam

[N. A. Corbier]

Florida considers it "resisting a shopkeeper," another misdemeanor.

Then again, you can't burglarize a store that is open, as Florida's Burglary is basically: Trespass when not open to public with intent to commit another criminal infraction.

[bigdog]

resisting aa merchant is a lesser included offense of robbery in florida

[histfan71]

Just another wonder here about other state laws, but if a S/L fights to get away is it considered robbery? I understand In philly if you run or fight with LP its automatic robbery.

In California a shoplift becomes a robbery if you physically resist the attempt to stop you. And in California robbery is considered a serious offense and you could get sentenced to major time in state prision.

[Mr. Security]

Nope. As long as they didn't run across a busy thoroughfare, we were to stay on them at all costs.

"all costs" could cost you your life. Chasing a shoplifter means that his back is toward you and it may not be possible to see his hand(s). The S/L could easily turn around with a gun and shoot you. Best to see if you can observe where the guy goes from a safe distance and try to get a plate number, etc.

[Serpico]

"all costs" could cost you your life. Chasing a shoplifter means that his back is toward you and it may not be possible to see his hand(s). The S/L could easily turn around with a gun and shoot you. Best to see if you can observe where the guy goes from a safe distance and try to get a plate number, etc.

Making the stop in the first place could cost you your life. I see what you're saying and to an extent, I agree. Loss prevention, more so than traditional security, poses a bigger threat to the employees life. Regardless, there's going to be a heavy risk associated with the job. Some stores did have an armed wackenhut guard, so he/she would've been involved in the pursuit.

On a side note, if a S/L uses physical force on an LPO in Illinois, at least where I was, they got a Aggrevated Battery beef ontop of the retail theft. I'm not crystal on that being statewide, but my company had a really good relationship with LEOs in the area as both of the owners were LEOs.

[N. A. Corbier]

There are issues in letting the suspect escape view when "observing them from a distance," as you have lost sight of them, and no longer know if they have the merchandise on them.

If your LP operation wants apprehensions, not just recovery of property, then you need to catch the bad guys. Or else you may be looking at a transfer to the cashier pool.

[1stWatch]

What I am wondering about, after all the LP I've seen operate, why do none of them carry OC cans? Many times when foot chases ensue, the suspect just successfully fought off the LP or struggled out of a physical hold while they were trying to apprehend him. A quick squirt of OC up the nose would solve a lot of that.

[FoxGhost]

Pursuits are not limited here in any way.I know of a chase that went on for 3km off the site and ended with the apprehension of the dirtbag.We are trusted to make our own judgements if the pursuit is possible&safe enough.If you get hurt,the company medical covers it.If the perp gets hurt, its his own fault.If a 3rd party gets hurt, its the fault of the one who directly caused the injury.

Something to consider: Over here, the dirtbags know we will chase them to hell and back if we have to.Therefore, very few even try it and those who do usually either have outstanding warrants or drugs on them.
Another thing: At least those of us who work retail security tend to be fit,mean and armed with everything short of a firearm.The bad guys know they will get their asses kicked if they do something stupid, and therefore only the stupid try :p

FoxGhost

[N. A. Corbier]

Pursuits are not limited here in any way.I know of a chase that went on for 3km off the site and ended with the apprehension of the dirtbag.We are trusted to make our own judgements if the pursuit is possible&safe enough.If you get hurt,the company medical covers it.If the perp gets hurt, its his own fault.If a 3rd party gets hurt, its the fault of the one who directly caused the injury.

Something to consider: Over here, the dirtbags know we will chase them to hell and back if we have to.Therefore, very few even try it and those who do usually either have outstanding warrants or drugs on them.
Another thing: At least those of us who work retail security tend to be fit,mean and armed with everything short of a firearm.The bad guys know they will get their asses kicked if they do something stupid, and therefore only the stupid try :p

FoxGhost

Then again, in the US, there's the perception that security will not, or cannot chase, and even if they do, they have no authority to do anything once they catch you. This perception is usually shared by police, criminals, the client, and the public.

[wisconsinite]

[QUOTE=FoxGhost]Pursuits are not limited here in any way.I know of a chase that went on for 3km off the site and ended with the apprehension.....

Call me either stupid...or American...but I don't know the Metric System.
FoxGhost, I know you're Finnish, but please convert your measurements, when speaking about speed, and distances. America thanks you. LOL
**==

[N. A. Corbier]

[QUOTE=FoxGhost]Pursuits are not limited here in any way.I know of a chase that went on for 3km off the site and ended with the apprehension.....

Call me either stupid...or American...but I don't know the Metric System.
FoxGhost, I know you're Finnish, but please convert your measurements, when speaking about speed, and distances. America thanks you. LOL
**==

3 kilometers = 1.86411358 mi
Google Calculator: 3 km to mi

Technically, there's nothing stopping someone from continuing a pursuit anywhere through the state, even crossing state lines, because we're pursuing based on our "right" to private arrest, not any police power of arrest.

Its like a bailbondsman. Bail Agents don't have "jurisdiction."

[wisconsinite]

My Mom, a 17 year veteran of the WI State Patrol, told me, in a way, there's no such thing as a "Citizens Arrest". Citizens can however, DETAIN an individual until police arrive, only if they witness a FELONY crime directly.
She told me this a number of years ago, and my memory on her exact words may have faded...

[N. A. Corbier]

My Mom, a 17 year veteran of the WI State Patrol, told me, in a way, there's no such thing as a "Citizens Arrest". Citizens can however, DETAIN an individual until police arrive, only if they witness a FELONY crime directly.
She told me this a number of years ago, and my memory on her exact words may have faded...

I hear this all the time, mostly from law enforcement officers. Wisconsin is actually the basis for alot of case law regarding "Citizen's Arrest," and Florida Case Law is based off of Wisconsin Case Law.

A private citizen has the authority invested by English Common Law to preserve the peace by taking a person who violates it into custody for the purposes of remanding them to a capable magistrate. The "night watch" or "guard" was tasked with this task, usually under the authority of the king. As there was no "police" force to speak of, it was up to the citizenry who felt the need to be part of the "watch" to undertake this guarding of the town.

After the invention of professional policing in England, the law still recongized that the citizens are a vital part of preserving the peace (not enforcing the law) and therefore the tradition stayed.

As American professional policing took off, this common law was taken less and less at face value by the police and the public, but has not changed legally.

There are several court cases which clearly document a Wisconsin Police Officer's right to arrest outside of jurisdiction, as a private citizen and not a police officer, including City of Waukesha v. Gorz, 166 Wis. 2d 243, 245, 479 N.W.2d 221 (Ct. App. 1991), State vs. Keith, http://www.courts.state.wi.us/html/ca/02/02-0583.htm

(I'm not sure how to quote WI Appeals Cases, so I provided a link to the second one. THe first one will come up on Google, its quoted so often by other states.)

I swear, something that many peace officers forget is that their authority to arrest out of jurisidiction is NOT because of their badge, but because they are a private citizen. The state may authorize them to carry a firearm anywhere within the state in performance of their duties, but their township or jurisidiction cannot grant them police powers in another jurisidiction.

This is why Wisconsin makes reference in no less than four places in WSS and WI Admin Code to "Private Police." Where public police officers are granted more leeway to investigate and arrest, and there are protections for the public against the impersonation of public police officers, the state recongizes that private posse and policing firms exist and are capable of protecting the peace, in accordance with Common, US, and WI law.

This may be another reason why private policing and security has no requirements in this state. There is no minimum training standard for a private citizen to effect an arrest. Only that they be physically located in the state, that the offender commits a public offense or felony in their presence, and that the arrestor inform the arrestee that they are under arrest.

The concept of "detainment" vs. "arrest" is trivial, as several law dictionaries clearly state that both are identical. The word "arrest" has been relegated to "detainment by lawful governmental authority," where "detainment" has been relegated to "detainment by lawful authority in absence of governmental authority."

In that case, you could say that a Racine County Deputy who stops a person for DUI in Kenosha County is only detaining the offender. I'm sure that the Racine Deputy will say, "I am not, I'm a Deputy Sheriff, and I'm arresting him."

[wjohnc]

I've been involved in the security industry for 11 years, including 4 as an LPO. For the last 3 months I'm a security guard in a grocery store, but - but - my job is the deterrence of theives. I do that not by walking around like a sign with legs, but by active deterrence; I walk up to and talk with thieves if I can, if I can't I make my presence very well known by making eye contact and by exaggerating my looking at their bags, or pockets, or whatever they have with them, or some other method that both makes my intention of stopping them unmistakable, and shows that I am not just another SG - my confidence and skill will conquer cowards and thieves.

A couple of people in this thread say that "retailers should focus more on preventing the problem before entering the store, rather than trying chase the problem out the door", and that is exactly what I do.
And here's the bonus: both my employer and the client have given permission for me to arrest if I want, which I have done. But deterrence is both more fun and a whole helluva lot safer.

my 2 cents

wjohnc

[ozsecuritychic]

its more fun to stand in sight of the shoplifter holding the tags that they have ripped off the item.and watching them crap their pants.

[Gumshoe]

I have to agree, I love see that "Oh ****" look they get on their face when they spot you.

But after nine years in LP, you get bored easily and try to create "FUN" when ever possible.

I will have to say, Grocery Store LP was where the fun was in those nine years. Hell I'm a police officer now and I still think it was more fun then being a cop. :D

By the way, someone made a reference to Bail Agents having total jurisdiction. There are some states in the US that if you even mention the mere fact that you are a Bail Agent and attempt to arrest someone, you will be arrested.

I remember this one guy used to carry a gun around him and he said he was a bounty hunter. It took about a year before he was arrested for Felony Weapon Possesion and a stem of other charges. I'm just waiting for someone to sue the hell out of "DOG".

[Mr. Security]

....I'm just waiting for someone to sue the [heck] out of "DOG".

I believe that he is a convicted felon, which explains why he doesn't carry a firearm. I'm not saying that he hasn't reformed his ways, but I don't understand how a state can allow a convicted felon to work in such a capacity.

[1stWatch]

My Mom, a 17 year veteran of the WI State Patrol, told me, in a way, there's no such thing as a "Citizens Arrest". Citizens can however, DETAIN an individual until police arrive, only if they witness a FELONY crime directly.
She told me this a number of years ago, and my memory on her exact words may have faded...

Texas officers say that as well. That is totally incorrect. The law here clearly defines a person as "arrested" when the person is held by restraint or force. It is not "detain and release to law enforcement". It also clearly states a person must be taken before a magistrate within 48 hours of the time the arrest is made.
According to our written law, anytime we call the police to pick up one of our prisoners they may not release the prisoner if the arrest is lawful. However, what really happens is another story..

[N. A. Corbier]

My "resident" Lt. at Polk County (Florida) Sheriff's Office had something to say about this:

Me: Its amazing how many cops risk their jobs by relying on heresay in relation to laws they were never trained on.
Paul: Amazing, isn't it?

Ie: They risk their jobs on failing to perform duties, or worse, making unlawful arrests of those who are making lawful arrests. Eventually, someone will push it, and not even the FOP screaming, "Its just a security guard! You can't possibly fire him over a bad arrest of a security guard!" will stop the ball from rolling.

[Bill Warnock]

My "resident" Lt. at Polk County (Florida) Sheriff's Office had something to say about this:

Me: Its amazing how many cops risk their jobs by relying on heresay in relation to laws they were never trained on.
Paul: Amazing, isn't it?

Ie: They risk their jobs on failing to perform duties, or worse, making unlawful arrests of those who are making lawful arrests. Eventually, someone will push it, and not even the FOP screaming, "Its just a security guard! You can't possibly fire him over a bad arrest of a security guard!" will stop the ball from rolling.
I would guess the old police saw still applies, "Hard cases make bad law."
Enjoy the day,
Bill

[Gumshoe]

What I am wondering about, after all the LP I've seen operate, why do none of them carry OC cans? Many times when foot chases ensue, the suspect just successfully fought off the LP or struggled out of a physical hold while they were trying to apprehend him. A quick squirt of OC up the nose would solve a lot of that.


When I worked for Kroger's Loss Prevention we carryed OC spray. BUT....let me say that again.. BUT

My supervisory is a Chief of Police for a big police department in this state. Some how he was able to convince the company to allow us to carry them, from my understanding we were the only LP department in this state (Michigan) to carry OC. This guy was the GOD of all LP Bosses I ever had. We would train every month on Self Defense and a vareity of LP subjects. They would even bring in the company lawyers and we had Mock Court Room Testimony and major discussions on LP Liability. He trained us to MCOLES standards which is similar to other states POST for Police officers. That was and still will be one of the best jobs I ever had, it almost beats out being a cop now. I stated this before in another Forum, nothing beats Grocery store LP, at least in my small opinion.

BTW they still carry OC spray to this day.

Now also while I worked for Kroger, we were allowed to chase to our hearts content, not sure if that is still allowed from what I was told yes they still do it.

While I worked for Kroger, I believe we had 3 guys total get visits to the hospital while I was a supervisor there. Those 3 guys had broken legs, all from getting ran over!!

It's extremely dangerous to chase, even as a police officer the Liability usually out weighs the overall case. We have strict chase policies in my department, I'm shocked we are still allowed to chase considering a lot of departments are now shying away from it. I have a case coming up this month on a fleeing and eluading (Jury Trail :( )

I definately miss the old days in LP when it would be nothing to chase down a guy in a pick up in a parking lot, jump out, cuff him, throw him in the back of the truck and drive back to your store with your prize.........not that that has ever happen :rolleyes:

[HotelSecurity]

I've been involved in the security industry for 11 years, including 4 as an LPO. For the last 3 months I'm a security guard in a grocery store, but - but - my job is the deterrence of theives. I do that not by walking around like a sign with legs, but by active deterrence; I walk up to and talk with thieves if I can, if I can't I make my presence very well known by making eye contact and by exaggerating my looking at their bags, or pockets, or whatever they have with them, or some other method that both makes my intention of stopping them unmistakable, and shows that I am not just another SG - my confidence and skill will conquer cowards and thieves.

A couple of people in this thread say that "retailers should focus more on preventing the problem before entering the store, rather than trying chase the problem out the door", and that is exactly what I do.
And here's the bonus: both my employer and the client have given permission for me to arrest if I want, which I have done. But deterrence is both more fun and a whole helluva lot safer.

my 2 cents

wjohnc

When I started in hotel security (29 years ago next month), we operated a lot like LP people in retail stores. We were plain clothed & snuck up on problem causers.

Over the years we have changed our method of operting completely. We are now prevention oriented. Although I still don't wear a uniform, I wear highly visable id (a badge on my pocket or on a chain around my neck). I think that this is more along the lines of what modern security should be doing. We do mainly prevention with some intervention. When asked what the diference between security & policing is, this is what I believe. The police do the opposite. They do mainly intervention with some prevention.

Being highly identifiable also helps when doing our other duties, acting as first responders to medical emergencies & evacuating during fire emergencies etc.

I'm surprised that most retail stores have not gone this route, that they still think this undercover catching the crook is more effective than highly visable security preventing theft in the first place.

[N. A. Corbier]

When I started in hotel security (29 years ago next month), we operated a lot like LP people in retail stores. We were plain clothed & snuck up on problem causers.

Over the years we have changed our method of operting completely. We are now prevention oriented. Although I still don't wear a uniform, I wear highly visable id (a badge on my pocket or on a chain around my neck). I think that this is more along the lines of what modern security should be doing. We do mainly prevention with some intervention. When asked what the diference between security & policing is, this is what I believe. The police do the opposite. They do mainly intervention with some prevention.

Being highly identifiable also helps when doing our other duties, acting as first responders to medical emergencies & evacuating during fire emergencies etc.

I'm surprised that most retail stores have not gone this route, that they still think this undercover catching the crook is more effective than highly visable security preventing theft in the first place.

Recoveries and successful arrests are metrics that they can use to justify to corporate that the LP operation is needed. Remember, most companies see LP as an expense to be justified.

[Mr. Security]

For new accounts, you should be able to show management what they lost in the way of SL before LP was incorporated versus the significant decline in losses after LP started working the store. In a case like that, prevention would work just fine because the expense for LP could be justified by the decrease in merchandise lost to SL.

I'm all for prevention first, intervention second. :)

[Bodyguard429]

I'm an lp at a retail store and we're not allowed to pursue under any circumstances. Nor are we allowed to use restraints. Personally I think this really sucks. You can make the stop, walk them back to the office and still all they have to do is walk away and that's it. We file a report but that doesn't do much. After someone does it once they know what to do to get away the next time. I just hate letting them go.

[Mr. Security]

I'm an lp at a retail store and we're not allowed to pursue under any circumstances. Nor are we allowed to use restraints. Personally I think this really sucks. You can make the stop, walk them back to the office and still all they have to do is walk away and that's it. We file a report but that doesn't do much. After someone does it once they know what to do to get away the next time. I just hate letting them go.

Then you have even more reason to work on the prevention part of it. You can enjoy a sense of satisfaction knowing that you protected the store by being proactive instead of just reacting after a crime is committed. :)

[Tennsix]

Many are not as motivated to be proactive because of the lack of recognition. The public and media (and sometimes supervisors) are quick to commend the officer that chases down and fights the suspect that stole a carton of cigarettes. Conversely, they seldom mention the officer that averts a $10,000 in-house inventory scam.