check out this idiot

[bigdog]

getting pepper sprayed by friend for $50
www.collegehumor.com/movies/105431

[Tennsix]

Its a wonder they didn't flush the OC with Vodka.

[Taser]

Who would volunteer for that? Didn't he realize it's only going to be funny to his friends once that OC hits him?

[Tennsix]

Job secuirty :D

[N. A. Corbier]

While he was screaming and such, you notice it really didn't slow him down. He was about to bolt off, and then he homed in on his buddy with the can easily. :)

That's Defense Technologies 5.5% spray, I think. Either 5.5% or 10%, with the "LEO Only" packaging.

Another amusing story, wish I had video, my brother in law used to spray Punch II on nachos. Then eat them.

[Taser]

While he was screaming and such, you notice it really didn't slow him down. He was about to bolt off, and then he homed in on his buddy with the can easily. :)

That's Defense Technologies 5.5% spray, I think. Either 5.5% or 10%, with the "LEO Only" packaging.

Another amusing story, wish I had video, my brother in law used to spray Punch II on nachos. Then eat them.
Haha, well a lot of those pepper sprays all say they're made "with food grade ingredients."

[bigdog]

that showa you the difference in potency in oc cause there is no national standard for testing it

[bigdog]

While he was screaming and such, you notice it really didn't slow him down. He was about to bolt off, and then he homed in on his buddy with the can easily. :)

That's Defense Technologies 5.5% spray, I think. Either 5.5% or 10%, with the "LEO Only" packaging.

Another amusing story, wish I had video, my brother in law used to spray Punch II on nachos. Then eat them.

better tell my lt to switch sprays he swears to god its as strong as sabre red i told him not even close

[N. A. Corbier]

better tell my lt to switch sprays he swears to god its as strong as sabre red i told him not even close

If your LT's can is yellow, just laugh to yourself. :)

[Mr. Security]

Another amusing story, wish I had video, my brother in law used to spray Punch II on nachos. Then eat them.

Some criminals (not your BIL :)) know that they can develop a tolerance for OC with continued exposure to it. They may intentionally subject themselves to it so that they can function when being sprayed with it. The LEO or s/o is momentarily shocked when the OC doesn't have the effect that he/she has seen in the past. That gives the perp. the time to make the tackle before the officer can resort to a baton, etc.

[Tennsix]

..........

[Tennsix]

Some criminals (not your BIL :)) know that they can develop a tolerance for OC with continued exposure to it. They may intentionally subject themselves to it so that they can function when being sprayed with it. The LEO or s/o is momentarily shocked when the OC doesn't have the effect that he/she has seen in the past. That gives the perp. the time to make the tackle before the officer can resort to a baton, etc.
Depends on one?s training. Our OC training teaches us to ?stick and move?. We don?t deploy OC and stand there flat footed and await a reaction. We spray, defend, and are ready with a follow-up tactic. The whole time we are moving to better our tactical situation and issuing verbal commands.

During OC training, we are subjected a healthy dose in the eyes and face. After being sprayed we have to demonstrate the ability to function. We have to simulate a take down with cuffing then read index card to prove our eyes are open.

[bigdog]

its first defense 10% oc red can made by defense technologies not the new x2

[bigdog]

most oc instructors are former or current law enforcement and teach stick and move and how to fight through at least thats what we were taught a s2 academy. People would actually spray and not move out of the way and issue commands and be ready to defend? I feel to buy oc you should have to be trained in its use.

[Tennsix]

most oc instructors are former or current law enforcement and teach stick and move and how to fight through at least thats what we were taught a s2 academy. People would actually spray and not move out of the way and issue commands and be ready to defend? I feel to buy oc you should have to be trained in its use.
The general public think OC is the best thing since the wheel. They have no ideas of it limitations and how to properly use it. They think all you have to do is point and spray. And they think it can replace deadly force. It is good stuff (I am still a fan of the old school mace) but it is just one tool in our arsenal.

[bigdog]

thats y i also carry a baton and taser. id rather use the taser it has a higher rate of effectiveness.

[bigdog]

also have you seen the pictures of subjectys sprayed with old school mace ? it causes chemical burns, blindness etc

[Tennsix]

also have you seen the pictures of subjectys sprayed with old school mace ? it causes chemical burns, blindness etc
I have used it agianst people

[bigdog]

so then you know why its no longer used.

[Tennsix]

so then you know why its no longer used.
Yes, I understand why it isn't used BUT it works and it is more reliable than OC-that was my point. I have been sprayed with Mace numerous times (more times than I have used it against others) and I lived to tell about it. Most types of less-than-lethal weapons (including TASER) have endured their share of criticism. It wasn?t so long ago people were saying OC kills. Now, it is TASER.

Any weapon is used with a degree of risk. Bottom line is if the suspect wasn?t acting an idiot, (s)he wouldn?t have been subject to any sort of force, including Mace, OC, TASER, baton, empty hand, firearm, etc.

[Tennsix]

also have you seen the pictures of subjectys sprayed with old school mace ? it causes chemical burns, blindness etc


thats y i also carry a baton and taser. id rather use the taser it has a higher rate of effectiveness.

For the sake of conversation, would you not carry a baton because it could potentially break bones? Would you not carry a TASER due to its potential for causing cardiac dysfunction?

[bigdog]

good point i guess not

[Mr. Security]

For the sake of conversation....Would you not carry a TASER due to its potential for causing cardiac dysfunction?

I would not carry a taser. Yes a baton may break a bone, especially if it is misused. Nobody ever died because of a broken arm (excluding compound fractures). I don't believe the same is true of a taser.

[Lawson]

I would carry a taser before a baton. I have never seen a good taser shot fail. In some regards they have more stopping power than a gun. Because it is based on disfunctioning one's central nervous system, and is not pain compliance, it gives the operator the desired result, regardless of how hopped up on drugs the bad guy is... however, with a baton, you may strike your PCP induced suspect, 2...3... 14 times, only to have him take your baton and beat the hell out of you with it. (see cinncinatti, where the cops beat the hell out of a guy with PR-24s, and he kept fighting until he died. )

I am a Taser supporter 100%.

[Mr. Security]

I would carry a taser before a baton. I have never seen a good taser shot fail. In some regards they have more stopping power than a gun. Because it is based on disfunctioning one's central nervous system, and is not pain compliance, it gives the operator the desired result, regardless of how hopped up on drugs the bad guy is... however, with a baton, you may strike your PCP induced suspect, 2...3... 14 times, only to have him take your baton and beat the hell out of you with it. (see cinncinatti, where the cops beat the hell out of a guy with PR-24s, and he kept fighting until he died. )

I am a Taser supporter 100%.

I understand how you feel. However, I have seen a good taser shot fail. Granted, the baton will fail before the taser does. Nevertheless, I would rather see force used as follows: Verbal, physical, OC, baton, Taser, Lethal.

[Tennsix]

I understand how you feel. However, I have seen a good taser shot fail. Granted, the baton will fail before the taser does. Nevertheless, I would rather see force used as follows: Verbal, physical, OC, baton, Taser, Lethal.
Ideally, you are correct. There are occasions when lesser levels of the force continuum are not adequate to subdue a situation and levels mayb be skipped. While we don?t want to utilize more force than necessary, we don?t want a level playing field either. We are not expected to meet the bad guy with equal force. The public is led to believe that a TASER is a replacement for deadly force; it isn?t. Conversely, if a suspect attacked me with a TASER I would consider using deadly force.

[N. A. Corbier]

Ideally, you are correct. There are occasions when lesser levels of the force continuum are not adequate to subdue a situation and levels mayb be skipped. While we don?t want to utilize more force than necessary, we don?t want a level playing field either. We are not expected to meet the bad guy with equal force. The public is led to believe that a TASER is a replacement for deadly force; it isn?t. Conversely, if a suspect attacked me with a TASER I would consider using deadly force.

I am prepared to shoot any person who raises a taser to me while I am armed with a deadly weapon. There is no stopping a citizen taser in 30-second mode. There is no stopping an older taser with the trigger continiously held. Once you are locked in with the taser, there is no defense against a weapon take-away.

Of the very, very, few people who have resisted a taser, evidence shows that some resisted due to improper probe placement (loud arc), or bad batteries.

Not only are you protecting your own life against the attacker, but the lives of others down the road that you service or concealed carry weapon will be used to kill by your attacker.

I might play the K-Mart OC vs. Sabre Red game with some idiot. But with a Taser, I won't play anything. They will not make that first shot.

[1stWatch]

I am still not comfortable with the idea of carrying a taser. I have read about people who went into cardiac arrest after being tased. Sure, they were on cocaine, but so are many of the people I would be likely to use such a device on in the field. The company I work for currently prohibits electrical weapons devices as per its SOP.

[bigdog]

my company is actually starting to issue tasers to all security officers very slow process as we are a small company, we have 150 officers about ten have tasers so far.

[Lawson]

I am still not comfortable with the idea of carrying a taser. I have read about people who went into cardiac arrest after being tased. Sure, they were on cocaine, but so are many of the people I would be likely to use such a device on in the field. The company I work for currently prohibits electrical weapons devices as per its SOP.


But honestly, you hear about how many Taser Deaths a Year? 1... 2... maybe 5 at most. Out of the thousands of Taser Deployments... And on those deaths, I cant recall one where the officer has been convicted of unnecessary force.

[Mr. Security]

But honestly, you hear about how many Taser Deaths a Year? 1... 2... maybe 5 at most. Out of the thousands of Taser Deployments... And on those deaths, I cant recall one where the officer has been convicted of unnecessary force.

Amnesty International reports the following:

DEATHS IN CUSTODY AFTER TASER USE

Since June 2001, more than 70 people have died in police custody in the USA and Canada after being struck with tasers, with the number of reported cases rising each year. Amnesty International's data shows two deaths reported in 2001, 13 in 2002, 20 in 2003 and 38 from January to mid-October 2004.(109) These figures are higher than the total number of taser-related deaths reported in the previous 25 years.

Mr. Security's Comments: Remember the old propaganda that the cigarette companies promoted? "Cigarettes have not been proven to cause cancer."
Now we know the truth about the use of tobacco products. I don't think all the facts are in yet regarding tasers. :(

[1stWatch]

But honestly, you hear about how many Taser Deaths a Year? 1... 2... maybe 5 at most. Out of the thousands of Taser Deployments... And on those deaths, I cant recall one where the officer has been convicted of unnecessary force.

The device certainly has its uses. I would be in a better position to study it more closely if my company didn't have a ban on them. I carry two other types of weapons that are definitely more prone to cause serious injury or death. I carry one of those big metal straight batons that slides into a ring on my duty belt. That item has more destructive capability than any asp, but I am more comfortable with it since I am fully familiar with the weapon.

[Mr. Security]

.... I carry one of those big metal straight batons that slides into a ring on my duty belt. That item has more destructive capability than any asp, but I am more comfortable with it since I am fully familiar with the weapon.

Metal? Who makes it?

[Tennsix]

The device certainly has its uses. I would be in a better position to study it more closely if my company didn't have a ban on them. I carry two other types of weapons that are definitely more prone to cause serious injury or death. I carry one of those big metal straight batons that slides into a ring on my duty belt. That item has more destructive capability than any asp, but I am more comfortable with it since I am fully familiar with the weapon.
I think the PPCT determined that metal batons inflict no more damage than those made of wood. A stick is a stick. My Asp is made of metal so how can a "metal" stick be more destructive? Any stick is destructive if it is used as a deadly weapon such as joint and head strikes.

[Mr. Security]

I think the PPCT determined that metal batons inflict no more damage than those made of wood. A stick is a stick. My Asp is made of metal so how can a "metal" stick be more destructive? Any stick is destructive if it is used as a deadly weapon such as joint and head strikes.

Depends on the metal, i.e. aluminum vs. steel. All things being equal (swing, etc.) steel is a heavier metal and therefore has more kinetic energy.

[bigdog]

asps are steel alloy. and rarely bend or break

[Mr. Security]

asps are steel alloy. and rarely bend or break

Granted. But I think you're missing the point of what I said. The heavier the baton, the greater the kinetic energy or impact.


ASP® Air Weight 26" Expandable Baton
Made from a lightweight alloy that's 45% lighter and just as durable and dependable as the original ASP® baton. Excellent for undercover or detective use. · Silver finish · Machine-foamed handle provides a positive gripping surface · Closed length of 9-1/2" expands to 26" · Weighs 10.9 oz.

ASP® 26" Expandable Baton
Full-size authority and reliability in an easy to carry package. · Black, chrome plated steel shaft · Machine-foamed handle provides a positive gripping surface · Closed length of 9-1/2" expands to 26" · Weighs 20 oz.

[N. A. Corbier]

This discussion of which baton is more dangerous needs to address two additional things. The first is the diameter of the shaft, and the second is how the operator is using the weapon.

The ASP has a very small diameter compared to the 1.25" diameter baton (PR-24, Straight Stick, etc). The smaller diameter concentrates the force, especially at the tip, yielding a "deeper" strike into the tissue. Just like a woman's heel is more dangerous than the ball of her foot (smaller area, greater force, deeper shock potential), so is the ASP.

There's also how the operator is using the weapon, and the imposed limitations of the ASP training system.

[Mr. Security]

This discussion of which baton is more dangerous needs to address two additional things. The first is the diameter of the shaft, and the second is how the operator is using the weapon.....

The second is already addressed in post #35...."all things being equal".....

[bigdog]

whats the best way to spray oc fan it across the face or spry from the chin to the eyes

[flashlightcop509]

Depends... If you have a stream type nozzle on your OC spray, go for the eyes since the stream can be accurately aimed up to around 7-10 feet. If you have a cone dispersal nozzle, center of the face; Bad thing about the latter is backspray if you discharge it in breezy conditions...

[Tennsix]

Depends... If you have a stream type nozzle on your OC spray, go for the eyes since the stream can be accurately aimed up to around 7-10 feet. If you have a cone dispersal nozzle, center of the face; Bad thing about the latter is backspray if you discharge it in breezy conditions...
A 10 foot spray will not find it's target if there is any wind. You will get more of it than the bad guy.

[Tennsix]

whats the best way to spray oc fan it across the face or spry from the chin to the eyes
Straight for the eyes.

[bigdog]

why not eyes nose and mouth

[Tennsix]

why not eyes nose and mouth
You want to stop the aggression. A straight shot in the eyes is the fastest way to do that. With that, the will also suspect will get a healthy helping of OC down in the mouth and nose. A person sprayed with OC will still fight but if his eyes are inflamed and swollen shut, he ican't see and than makes him a little easier to manage.

[Mr. Security]

Straight for the eyes.

Like a cobra :)

[N. A. Corbier]

If your using streamer, aim for the eyes, and make a circle as you count to one one thousand.

If your using fogger, aim for the eyes, and hold your breath. :)

If your using gel or foam, aim for the forehead, then bring it down into the eyes. This makes sure that the foam will get everywhere, including the hair, and drip into the eyes and mouth.

Keep in mind that OC works better at close ranges, such as 3-6 feet. Trying to nail someone 10 to 20 feet out will contaminate the entire area, including yourself, and you will probally just piss the guy off. Besides, at close range, you can then effect a quick takedown while the bad guy is reacting to the initial OC effects.

[1stWatch]

This discussion of which baton is more dangerous needs to address two additional things. The first is the diameter of the shaft, and the second is how the operator is using the weapon.

The ASP has a very small diameter compared to the 1.25" diameter baton (PR-24, Straight Stick, etc). The smaller diameter concentrates the force, especially at the tip, yielding a "deeper" strike into the tissue. Just like a woman's heel is more dangerous than the ball of her foot (smaller area, greater force, deeper shock potential), so is the ASP.

There's also how the operator is using the weapon, and the imposed limitations of the ASP training system.

The type of baton it is is a Monadnock steel straight baton. It has a diameter of 1.25", the same material as the PR-24, except with no side handle and not expandable. It weighs quite a bit more than the wooden one I also own. A strike from it causes more damage than the wooden baton since it weighs more, provided you can generate the same amount of acceleration.

Force = Mass x Speed

It is more versatile with thrusting and poking motions than an asp and can be used in "quick draw" applications. The entire part of the rod can be used as a lever or striking surface, whereas the effective parts of an asp are the little ball on the end and the opposite end of the handle. The disadvantages of it are it is more difficult to retain and it hampers your mobility a bit while doing things like bailing out of a car, running, jumping, and climbing.

I have an asp baton as well, but I normally carry the straight stick. I have had two replace two asps since they did bend when the ball missed a small target and the joint hit it instead. The center of the rod is hollow. Quite a bit of acceleration can be gained with a proper shockwave or cutting strike with a lot of destructive power, but the applications of using the rod for leverage and the ends for quick thrusts are fewer and it also takes more physical effort and time to remove it from its scabbard and extend it before striking.

[Tennsix]

If your using streamer, aim for the eyes, and make a circle as you count to one one thousand.

If your using fogger, aim for the eyes, and hold your breath. :)

If your using gel or foam, aim for the forehead, then bring it down into the eyes. This makes sure that the foam will get everywhere, including the hair, and drip into the eyes and mouth.

Keep in mind that OC works better at close ranges, such as 3-6 feet. Trying to nail someone 10 to 20 feet out will contaminate the entire area, including yourself, and you will probally just piss the guy off. Besides, at close range, you can then effect a quick takedown while the bad guy is reacting to the initial OC effects.
Closer than three feet, OC may not be effective. The carrier agent won?t have time to evaporate and the suspect will get a face full of carrier while the OC drips off with very little effect.

[1stWatch]

One of my favorite applications of OC was used while a suspect was wrestling with an off-duty police officer I was working with. One half-second burst up the suspect's right nostril put him down right away and didn't contaminate the officer. We also found the most effective brand of nasal spray :eek:

[N. A. Corbier]

Closer than three feet, OC may not be effective. The carrier agent won?t have time to evaporate and the suspect will get a face full of carrier while the OC drips off with very little effect.

Even worse, you might get hydrololic needling or whatever they're calling it, where the stream penetrates soft tissues of the eyes and mucus membranes.

[OccamsRazor]

Closer than three feet, OC may not be effective. The carrier agent won?t have time to evaporate and the suspect will get a face full of carrier while the OC drips off with very little effect.


I was sprayed during a fight at less than arm's length, and it definitely had an effect on me :eek:

The officer who did the spraying was right handed, but was using that hand to control the suspect's left arm, so she sprayed with her left hand....Getting her self in the left eye, the suspect and myself full in the face.

Enough reading for now, my eyes are watering too badly :D

[Tennsix]

I was sprayed during a fight at less than arm's length, and it definitely had an effect on me :eek:

The officer who did the spraying was right handed, but was using that hand to control the suspect's left arm, so she sprayed with her left hand....Getting her self in the left eye, the suspect and myself full in the face.

Enough reading for now, my eyes are watering too badly :D
Yeah, it MAY not be as effective at close range. It will still bite but odds are it won't bite as hard.

[Tennsix]

Even worse, you might get hydrololic needling or whatever they're calling it, where the stream penetrates soft tissues of the eyes and mucus membranes.
yep, you are right about that. The bad guy could have grounds for a civil suit. :rolleyes: Hmm... Isn't life grand....

[1stWatch]

This discussion is making me want to get my theraflu back out.

[Mr. Security]

This discussion is making me want to get my theraflu back out.

Don't forget your Visine to. :D

[N. A. Corbier]

yep, you are right about that. The bad guy could have grounds for a civil suit. :rolleyes: Hmm... Isn't life grand....

Use Cone instead of Steamer if you spray real close. Problem solved. :)