Wisconsin "Personal Protection Act"

[jimmyhat]

Good job Gov. Doyle, let the bad guys get on about their business without being harassed by law-abiding citizens.

http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/1562229/posts

[N. A. Corbier]

Good job Gov. Doyle, let the bad guys get on about their business without being harassed by law-abiding citizens.

http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/1562229/posts

Man, he does that yearly. Here's the industry related kicker:

A sworn law enforcement officer may carry their weapon concealed 24/7. Including while performing other jobs. It is illegal to carry a concealed weapon in Wisconsin. If you require armed private investigators, you must hire off duty law enforcement officers. They are then administered the PI test, and are authorized to work as Private Investigators. They are also authorized to be armed under their police powers!

In other words, my tax dollars are paying for off duty cops to moonlight as PIs and bodyguards with a city weapon. No citizen may carry concealed, so you must use off duty cops for any armed gig.

In 1999, the Wisconsin Division of Regulation "Private Investigation Advisory Council" voted to seek legislation to arm private investigators, and provide additional training to armed security persons (Wisconsin DAAT) raising it fro m 6 dollars and 16 hours of classroom to 40 range/classroom/DAAT. The next year, the council was disbanded. The rules were never instated.

It is estimated that once the PPA is passed, similar legislation for PIs may be passed, or that PIs would be authorized to work on their CCWs.

However, right now, your private company must hire employees who have police powers to achieve your private objectives.

[ff000525]

That's how long Wi has been fighting for CCW. Two years ago it was vetoed, overturned by the Senate and lost by 1 stinkin vote in the Assembly. This vote origninally had been pro-CCW, but the Assemblyman changed his vote when the veto override came around. The new override (sometime in 2006) is teetering on the brink. The Senate again has enough votes to override, but the assembly may be one vote short again. I've emailed all the legislators who seem to be thinking about changing thier vote back to a "Nay". Hopefully this year we get it!

[jimmyhat]

I wonder how many weapons are included in the T.O&E. of all the protection details that escort Wisconsins Gov. and Senators everywhere they go.

I guess it's easy to ignore the self-defense of your constituents when you have armed bodyguards.

[OccamsRazor]

If you require armed private investigators, you must hire off duty law enforcement officers. They are then administered the PI test, and are authorized to work as Private Investigators. They are also authorized to be armed under their police powers!
In other words, my tax dollars are paying for off duty cops to moonlight as PIs and bodyguards with a city weapon.

If one requires armed private investigators, and they hire off-duty LEOs, how are your tax dollars paying for it? :confused:

Also, I don't know about WI cops, but I've rarely met an officer who carries his issue weapon off-duty. They're generally full-size, bulky, and stick out like a sore thumb. Unless you're a newbie and WANT people to see it (I still don't understand that one), you'd generally carry a smaller weapon off-duty. Most of the guys I've worked with carried a baby Glock or small wheel gun.

That, and if you're involved in a shoot off-duty, your weapon is evidence, and you'll most likely kiss it goodbye until after a trial/inquest is complete.

[1stWatch]

This is one reason I shall never live in Wisconsin. My gun stays on at all times.

[ff000525]

N.A. as much as I respect your opinions and know how much you study up on topics, I'm going to have to disagree with you on the armed PI issue. I have a friend who is a PI up in the Stevie P area, he has never been a cop, yet he is still certified to carry his gun (which he does daily). Now the concealed part is a different story. I really don't want to get my statutes book out right now, (its 10:45pm and the book is in my car) but I believe the law is that a PI can never carry concealed, yet as long as they pass a 36 or 30 hour course like a Security Guard they can go armed. Also, if certified to carry, when in a vehicle the gun must be in a holster, not tucked between the seats. I'll try to find the statute and post it tomorrow.

[N. A. Corbier]

N.A. as much as I respect your opinions and know how much you study up on topics, I'm going to have to disagree with you on the armed PI issue. I have a friend who is a PI up in the Stevie P area, he has never been a cop, yet he is still certified to carry his gun (which he does daily). Now the concealed part is a different story. I really don't want to get my statutes book out right now, (its 10:45pm and the book is in my car) but I believe the law is that a PI can never carry concealed, yet as long as they pass a 36 or 30 hour course like a Security Guard they can go armed. Also, if certified to carry, when in a vehicle the gun must be in a holster, not tucked between the seats. I'll try to find the statute and post it tomorrow.

Wisconsin is an Open Carry State. He does not need a license to carry openly, nor do you or I. He can never, however, carry concealed on public property.

Wisconsin, however, tried to state that a PI may never carry openly unless performing "uniformed security duties." That flies about as well as "carrying openly is disturbing the peace," ie: No one has ever been convicted of this statute violation when detained by police officers for having a gun on.

Two things I'd be interested in knowing. 1) Does this person wear a badge or shield? 2) Does he wear identifable clothing that indicates that he is an agent or investigator? You could argue that a polo shirt with a badge on it is a "security uniform," which gets around the "uniformed security duties" requirement. I ask about the badge because WAC specifically states "no badges on PIs." I've wondered if this is a blue law, or not.

If you can find a way for a PI to openly carry his weapon while being a PI, and not a "uniformed security person," I'd be interested in hearing it. The way the state's website and appropriate statutes read, its either illegal, or its against Wisconsin Administrative Code, but not illegal.

The nice thing about the Armed Security Person card is that you can carry in a motor vehicle without having to trunk the gun and lock-box the ammunition, to get around the DNR rule.

[N. A. Corbier]

If one requires armed private investigators, and they hire off-duty LEOs, how are your tax dollars paying for it? :confused:

Also, I don't know about WI cops, but I've rarely met an officer who carries his issue weapon off-duty. They're generally full-size, bulky, and stick out like a sore thumb. Unless you're a newbie and WANT people to see it (I still don't understand that one), you'd generally carry a smaller weapon off-duty. Most of the guys I've worked with carried a baby Glock or small wheel gun.

That, and if you're involved in a shoot off-duty, your weapon is evidence, and you'll most likely kiss it goodbye until after a trial/inquest is complete.

Our tax dollars pay for the sworn law enforcement officer's training, and his liability insurance. He is never "off-duty," he is carrying as a sworn law enforcement officer, and never loses his arrest/carry powers. In other words, a PI company hires a police officer to BE a police officer. His power is invested in him by the city/county/state, not the PI licensing agency.

[EMTGuard]

Our tax dollars pay for the sworn law enforcement officer's training, and his liability insurance. He is never "off-duty," he is carrying as a sworn law enforcement officer, and never loses his arrest/carry powers. In other words, a PI company hires a police officer to BE a police officer. His power is invested in him by the city/county/state, not the PI licensing agency. Truly a Rent-A-Cop. (for those that missed it in another thread, I HATE the term Rent-A-Cop when refering to private security.)

[N. A. Corbier]

Truly a Rent-A-Cop. (for those that missed it in another thread, I HATE the term Rent-A-Cop when refering to private security.)

Indeed. You can rent a sworn law enforcement officer in Wisconsin, just like in other states. The only difference, I've seen, is that you can rent them, put them in a security guard uniform, and they're still a cop.

[ff000525]

And now we've lost it by 2 votes.....hhhhmmm we only lost it by one last year

[wisconsinite]

I am torn between loyalties when it comes to the topic of C & C. I am aware that state and local governments are very rigorous in its training & mandating of conceal & carry. But other states have done it, and recorded a higher number of crimes involving firearms. I'd like to see it. To make the TRUE criminals "think twice". But then again, it might take traffic road rage, and other daily human confrontations to an all new level. It's a double-edged sword, for sure. That's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

[hemi444]

Ok, Maybe I over seen something here but to tell me you are not allowed to carry a weapon for self defense as a regular cilvilian? :confused:

[N. A. Corbier]

You may not conceal any weapon or dangerous device upon your person. That means no knives (folders are called tools and exempt if under 4 inches), no billy clubs, no pepper spray (Unless under/over a certain gram weight, must be readily identifable as a can of OC, and must be on person), no swords, and no electric weapons.

You may carry a baton, billie club, knife, pepper spray (still within gram weight rules, must be a can, must be on belt), or a firearm openly and plainly encased upon the person. You may not carry a firearm while riding in a motor vehicle. You may not carry an electric weapon.

So, to answer your question - outside of your home, you may not carry a weapon for personal protection unless you are prepared to deal with "disorderly conduct" charges, however trumped.

[hemi444]

that sucks :mad:

[wisconsinite]

So, basically, as a civilian, or private security person that's untrained in handguns and non-lethal weapons...you're stuck using verbal judo or active countermeasures...and if all else fails, run like hell. Seems quite unfair to me if a perp pulls out a weapon.
As a footnote, here in WI, Gov. Doyle ONCE AGAIN vetoed the conceal & carry bill.

[1stWatch]

I am torn between loyalties when it comes to the topic of C & C. I am aware that state and local governments are very rigorous in its training & mandating of conceal & carry. But other states have done it, and recorded a higher number of crimes involving firearms. I'd like to see it. To make the TRUE criminals "think twice". But then again, it might take traffic road rage, and other daily human confrontations to an all new level. It's a double-edged sword, for sure. That's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

That's how it has ended up in Texas. Violent offenses involving vicious barehanded attacks and melee weapons are less common, but now most robberies are committed with guns since people can go to any sporting goods store and buy a handgun with no registration act, only a background check. People are able to defend themselves more easily with weapons, such as one 66 year old lady did against a home invader recently, but there have been some road rage shootings in which children have died.

[ff000525]

Unfortunatley, the bad guys still carry concealed weapons in WI. My instructor (Criminal Justice) is a LEO. This morning he told us of an incident he responded to on the local bike path that runs between Racine and K-town. The subject involved was drunk and throwing things at people on the path. He has had previous contact with LE before so they sent two squads to find this guy. Keep in mind this bike path is a pretty secluded area. As they (PD) approached him he took a swig of JD and tossed the bottle at the cops feet. My instructor and his partner proceeded to search the guy and pulled two knives out of his boot (not under 4" blades either) then the guy decided he wanted to fight. The two LEOs got him under control, cuffed him and finished searching him, and lo and behold he was packing a 9mm in his waist band. The moral of this story is that bad guys DON'T care about laws, and if they wanna pack heat they will. My wife and I routinley used this bike trail last summer, but probably won't this year.

[1stWatch]

The two LEOs got him under control, cuffed him and finished searching him, and lo and behold he was packing a 9mm in his waist band. The moral of this story is that bad guys DON'T care about laws, and if they wanna pack heat they will.

I have seen that quite a bit. The concealed carry laws don't affect how bad guys get ahold of weapons.
Last year we did a stop on a red cadillac at one apartment complex. There was a loaded AR-15 on the back seat.
Other seemingly "routine" contacts have yielded the result of contact with illegally concealed handguns, drug paraphernalia including contaminated needles, and large amounts of meth and cocaine.
During one pat down we did, a large wafer of cocaine fell out of a 15 year old's waist band, valued at nearly $3,000 in drug trade value.

None of these people cared about how legal it was to possess these items. They followed their own social hierarchy. Their constantly running mouths and physical resistance were symptoms of the epidemic they had fallen into that plagues the entire country - self serving, lack of respect, corruption of society, and betrayal of fellow man.

Now, if we could only get the local police to follow the existing arrest laws and take these miscreants to jail instead of placing the contraband in the property room and driving the suspect down the road and dropping him off or even telling him he is free to go at the scene... :mad:

[N. A. Corbier]

There's a fundamental thing here. Law abiding citizens are just that, law abiding. Criminals do not abide by the law. They run their mouths, they resist violently, because the only thing they fear is capture.

"I'll thug till the day I die."

[N. A. Corbier]

From an online local newspaper:
http://kenoshaonline.net/article.php?story=20060201165426638

People threatened an assemblyman's life after he failed to vote for CCW. The comment in the article was made by a non-sworn Kenosha County Corrections Officer. Ie: A member of the Sheriff's Department.

[1stWatch]

Law abiding citizens are just that, law abiding. Criminals do not abide by the law. They run their mouths, they resist violently, because the only thing they fear is capture.


Ah, but I see a bigger problem in our society, both with law breakers and "law abiding citizens". This problem is a widespread degradation of values, namely of respect and of the family. This is why teenagers these days are getting into such serious trouble. It starts at home, either with neglect or abuse or the parents being the same way themselves, but not all these people end up being lawbreakers, just people who are unbearable to be around and who resent law and authority.
Example:
-"Hello sir, could you please move your vehicle from the fire lane so as not to obstruct access?" (gold Lexus, well-to-do driver, mid 30's)
-"(screaming right away) Don't get your panties in a wad!! I'll move whenever the hell I feel like it!! If you don't like me being here, call the real cops! I'll be gone by the time they show up anyway! Dumb ass Barney Fife!"
-"Thank you sir, have a nice day" (parks patrol vehicle a length behind the one refusing to move, watches for a shoplifter to run out)
-"Hey! What the hell do you think you're doing? I'm gonna.." blah blah blah :rolleyes:

[1stWatch]

Ah, but I see a bigger problem in our society, both with law breakers and "law abiding citizens". This problem is a widespread degradation of values, namely of respect and of the family. This is why teenagers these days are getting into such serious trouble. It starts at home, either with neglect or abuse or the parents being the same way themselves, but not all these people end up being lawbreakers, just people who are unbearable to be around and who resent law and authority.
Example:
-"Hello sir, could you please move your vehicle from the fire lane so as not to obstruct access?" (gold Lexus, well-to-do driver, mid 30's)
-"(screaming right away) Don't get your panties in a wad!! I'll move whenever the hell I feel like it!! If you don't like me being here, call the real cops! I'll be gone by the time they show up anyway! Dumb ass Barney Fife!"
-"Thank you sir, have a nice day" (parks patrol vehicle a length behind the one refusing to move, watches for a shoplifter to run out)
-"Hey! What the hell do you think you're doing? I'm gonna.." blah blah blah :rolleyes:

Oh btw, that was a small experience from mall security. Those same kind of people straightened up and got very respectful after I got an armed position. It seems to me they fear a symbol of power, but they have no real respect for others.

[N. A. Corbier]

Oh btw, that was a small experience from mall security. Those same kind of people straightened up and got very respectful after I got an armed position. It seems to me they fear a symbol of power, but they have no real respect for others.

I don't think its fearing a symbol of power, but a symbol of punishment. Ie: The guard may snap and kill you, or he may have the power to arrest you since he has a gun on.

I watched a Florida State Senator light up in a hotel, with a cigar even, after the Florida Clean Indoor Air Act passed, and was made law.

I asked him nicely if he could put it out. He said no. I asked him again, or I'd have to have to ask him to leave as he was not following Florida Law and the rules of the house. He pops off with, "I'm a Florida State Senator." And I asked him if he voted for or against the Florida Clean Indoor Air Act. :) He put it out after the Mayor of Tampa saw what was going on, thought I was a police officer, and told the senator to put the thing out before he goes to jail for arguing with one of his officers.

[wisconsinite]

There is nothing else that chaps my ass more, than a foul-mouthed individual that thinks he can park where he wants, or do whatever he wants! Just because he has an expensive car, or lots of political or social clout. It's THAT kind of behavior that completely undermines our job! It makes me just wanna grab them by the scruff of their collar, and..................

[N. A. Corbier]

Alright, let me preface this with: I do not know the mission or post orders of the security guard at the strip mall I was at. I do not know if he is even authorized to confront people. Judging by his employer, I would guess "not."

Yesterday, I was waiting for the public bus (I refuse to drive to routine places at 2.60 a gallon that don't need a car, when I can take a public bus that can get me anywhere within 10 miles in 30 minutes, AND not deal with stupid drivers) and watching the Securitas Guard walk around a strip mall.

This strip mall is in a "not so good" section of Kenosha. 52nd Ave for those who know the area. Waiting for the bus gives me quite a bit of time to people watch. It also lets me know what's going on, as people are wont to talk on the bus like nobody's listening.

The Securitas Guard was walking around the strip mall, not really doing anything. He did not have a vehicle that I could determine, nor did he go near any POVs in the 30 minutes I was there. For most of the time, he walked around 1/4th of the strip mall, then disappeared. I believe he was on the back side of the mall's property. During this time, several vehicles parked in a fire lane to go to the check cashing place. The average vehicle was there for five minutes. Five minutes, as we know, is a long time.

There was no regard for the fire lane, in fact, other vehicles had to go around these vehicles that were parked on the side of the sidewalk. Some would park head first, meaning that section of the lot was blocked off.

We all know that these are factors of non-enforcement. My girlfriend suggested that maybe he was contracted by a business, and not the property management company. It would be pointless for the guard to be over 100 meters from any contracted business, would it not? I am going with "he's contracted by the property management company."

It was obvious by the amount of repeat traffic that the patrons feared no punishment for parking in front of a fire lane. The lane was marked in yellow stripe, with the words "fire lane," every 15 feet or so, on the ground.

To me, if I picked that up, I would request that their property maintenance repaint the damn curbs red, and then request the city put up real fire lane markers. It seems, up here, that private contractors can write tickets (Parking Tickets are by Parking Management Solutions, NOT the Police. In fact, you can't pay a parking ticket at the police department, you have to call PMS to pay it.) so I would seek whatever hurdles to write City Parking Tickets for that fire lane, as well.

I have seen what a City Fire Truck will do (In Florida) to someone parked in a fire lane. Sure, they can ram the car. But that takes TIME. Its also much more satisfying to smash out its windows and run hose through it.

[1stWatch]

I watched a Florida State Senator light up in a hotel, with a cigar even, after the Florida Clean Indoor Air Act passed, and was made law.

I asked him nicely if he could put it out. He said no. I asked him again, or I'd have to have to ask him to leave as he was not following Florida Law and the rules of the house. He pops off with, "I'm a Florida State Senator."

See, this is an example of what I was referring to about disrespect being widespread. This is a public official who did not wish to follow a law he helped to create. When confronted, he responded with an attitude that said "I'm better than you". This seems like the idea of the old caste system remaining. The only thing that brought him into compliance was the idea he would lose credibility and high-and-mightiness in front of the mayor by not complying.