Unsecured Railroads

[Mr. Security]

NJ was in the news recently because investigative reporters were able to access tanker cars full of toxic chemicals (chlorine, etc.) without being challenged. Security was non-existent. The news crew was only stopped by a waste treatment facility vehicle security patrol (no connection with the RR) when leaving the area. A terrorist attack at this particular site would affect the tri-state area. The Governor elect has promised to take action once in office. When will they ever learn?! :(


http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/8083/derail6zo.th.jpg (http://img28.imageshack.us/my.php?image=derail6zo.jpg)

[N. A. Corbier]

Seeing as how its the Railroad Police, and not Railroad Security, you'll have to talk to their union.

[Bill Warnock]

This is not the first time this subject has come up. Discovery or TLC had an exposé on this subject. Apparently there is not enough money to go around and the rail system got the short straw.
Consider this, plant a limpet type mine on the side of a chlorine tanker set to go off in the center of a population center. What death and destruction could be rent. Also consider chlorine and a substance that would just burn to beat the band, CL + CO = Phosgene.
Enjoy the day,
Bill

[Mr. Security]

Seeing as how its the Railroad Police, and not Railroad Security, you'll have to talk to their union.

You lost me on this post N.A. :confused:

[N. A. Corbier]

You lost me on this post N.A. :confused:

Railroads do not have security forces. They have federally comissioned Railroad Police. One of, according to most LEOs, the best jobs in LE. This stems from the earliest days of private security, when Pinkerton agents working the railroads were considered real police.

After all, take a look at Union Pacific, CSX, etc. They all have Railroad Police Officers, and a Railroad Police Department.

[OccamsRazor]

Railroads do not have security forces. They have federally comissioned Railroad Police. One of, according to most LEOs, the best jobs in LE.

I really wish I knew why people think that...I looked into Amtrak's PD. No way. Not for $15.30 an hour...Especially not since there are allegedly only 3-5 officers in all of Washington State, and I was told by one of them they average 200-500 miles of driving a day. About the only pro I could see in the whole thing was the training opportunities...FLETC, bomb stuff, etc.

[Serpico]

I know a railroad cop in MI. It's a BS job. Not much police work and the benefits are terrible. Minimum retirement age is 65, whereas most Depts allow for retirement after 20-25 yrs and regardless of age

[Lawson]

One of the Sheriff's Deputies left the agency (my county) to be a RxR cop... I heard in less than a year he was a Sheriff's Deputy again. :D

[Mr. Security]

Railroads do not have security forces. They have federally comissioned Railroad Police. One of, according to most LEOs, the best jobs in LE. This stems from the earliest days of private security, when Pinkerton agents working the railroads were considered real police.

After all, take a look at Union Pacific, CSX, etc. They all have Railroad Police Officers, and a Railroad Police Department.

I already knew that. :o I just wanted to see if you were paying attention. ;) (Yea, right! :rolleyes: )

Nevertheless, the following article does not exude confidence in the effectiveness of RR police to thwart terrorism:

Railroad security is a ?joke? (The following story by Dennis Welch appeared on the East Valley Tribune website on December 8.)

MESA, Ariz. -- Arizonans are at risk of dying from terrorist attacks along the state?s 3,000 miles of railroad tracks because of nonexistent security, Arizona Corporation Commissioner Kris Mayes said Wednesday.

Mayes called security a "joke" after hearing that no federal money is being spent to guard the state?s railroads against a potential terrorist strike.

During a special meeting called to address safety, members of the commission?s railroad safety staff also noted that only one person is in charge of terrorist security for the railroads? entire Phoenix metropolitan network.

[Crinsol]

Our firm is heavily involved with rail security on a national scope. It is true that rail has recieved the short end of the stick as far as funding is concerned.

On the other hand, there are some very smart people involved in this sector and we feel that changes are occurring.

The issue is more political than technical as is usually the case.

[N. A. Corbier]

I really wish I knew why people think that...I looked into Amtrak's PD. No way. Not for $15.30 an hour...Especially not since there are allegedly only 3-5 officers in all of Washington State, and I was told by one of them they average 200-500 miles of driving a day. About the only pro I could see in the whole thing was the training opportunities...FLETC, bomb stuff, etc.

I have no idea why people think this. Personally, once I looked into Amtrak PD, I thought the job would be boring, with alot of work (driving into Chicago, etc, praying I wasn't assigned somewhere else...) for little pay.

I think people see it as a stepping stone to a "real" law enforcement job. Or something you stay in for a few years, milk, then come out of with "law enforcement experience" to start your own private operation. People really like to see, "Owned and Managed by a Former Federal Law Enforcement Officer" in the ads.

[Crinsol]

JH,

Feel free to PM me or shoot me an email. As we are pushing a standards based system that can be used acrossed the board, there is not really any trade secrets.

Talk soon.

[Gumshoe]

I'm a Railroad Police Officer or what the Railroad industry refers us to as Gumshoes....long history in the Railroad.

Spent nine years in Loss Prevention Management before I went into the Police Academy and "Discovered" the railroad police.

I love the job and yes the pay is great. The retirement benefits you can't beat but yes it's true the only bad thing is we have to be 60 years old and have 30 years in. But I'm told that will change, besides most departments are abloshing their retirement to 401k or they are raising their time in.

Plus we get stock options, 401k on top of our pension, also when I retire my wife will also get a pay check seperate from what I make.

As far as the security concerns go, I work near one of the largest Chemical areas in the United States also known as Chemical Valley. You enter our yard you will be spotted and arrested on site. We not only have Railroad Officers who carry Full Police powers, but their is also United States Customs and Border Protection Officers in the yard as well as U.S. Border Patrol agents.

[Mr. Security]

.....
As far as the security concerns go, I work near one of the largest Chemical areas in the United States also known as Chemical Valley. You enter our yard you will be spotted and arrested on site....

Has your site security actually been tested by a mock terrorist group?

[Gumshoe]

You know I should have watched what I typed in the last post. Sorry I type a bit too fast and I forget to review what I type. :(

Is it possible to enter the yard and cause some damage? Definately I would have to say yes and we all know that is a possibility. No professional in the security field whether it be in Private Sector or Public can ever guarantee 100% physical security/access control yada yada.

From my understanding we never been tested, maybe we will one day. Being that the yard is a major port of Entry, we are constantly tested with Real World Scenerios such as the Illegal Aliens and their smugglers, the dope runners, homeless folks, kids trespassing, taggers, Theives, Gang Bangers and some Rail fans who get out of line, 98% of the time we never have an issue with a Rail Fan but once in awhile we catch them in the yard. Even though most of the things above are minor crimes they still keep you looking aka "Hunting" and sharpen your observation skills.

Now I can only answer for what I do, I'm very proactive, maybe it's because I'm young but I was always that way in the LP field and I did that for a long time. I look for tracks in the snow/mud. I set things up in the yard that trip off detection that someone was there. I utilize very "Old School" methods to find where my trepassers have been so I know later to start keeping in eye in that area. Plus it's not hard to determine where your points of entry are going to be when you lay out your Physical Security Plan. The rule of thumb is, if someone is in a train yard, they are up to no good. Folks just don't walk into a train yard for the hell of it, it's very dangerous.

Now with that said, I'm not always in my yard either. I'm a fully certified Police Officer so I'm also out making traffic stops or maybe I'm patrolling our Right of Way. I could also be backing up local Police Depts or State Police. Once in awhile I make arrests or traffic stops that are non railroad related.

A perfect example of the partnership we have here. The other night, 3 guys walked through our yard taking a short cut over a via-duct (Bridge). Right away they were spotted by a Clerk who works for the Railroad, he calls it out on the radio. I was on the scene in a minute, Two Federal Agents were on scene a minute later backing me up and then local police showed up to back me up. We eventually found the guys in an adjacent neighborhood. They were pretty innocent guys and were eventually released with a verbal warning. But it just goes to show you the kinda of intensity that we have in my area. Not all rail yards are like that though, I know some police officers who sleep on the job from time to time....heck who here doesn't know someone that does that. I can't, I get too scared, your a target just waiting to get shot.

I definately think that their is a need for more Law Enforcement to protect the Rail Infrastructure, but we will never get it. They hired 3 Railroad Police Officers for my yard alone, including a K9 that detects narcotics and tracks.

In the past week I arrested three people on trespassing charges, and one for Theft and another for MDOP (Property Damage, it wasn't railroad related but it was near our property).

We also have Amtrak here and we provide protection for their property since Amtrak does not have officers in our state any longer.


Sorry for the long drawn out story, but I'm just trying to convey my side a little better. We all could use more security, but the reality is, it will never happen. We just have to work with what we have and hope for the best.

[Bill Warnock]

My friends, please reread my original post, #3. Valuable items are being taken from trains on the move. Some recovered, some not.
As previously mentioned, CO + CL = Phosgene.
This is a wonderful thread.
Enjoy the day,
Bill

[Gumshoe]

What Railroad and what state is this all being taken place in?? I get E-mail Bulletins from various Federal Agencies and State Agencies mostly related to Homeland Security and I haven't seen anything come across the wire that states Chemicals have came up missing.

Not saying it's not true, but you would definately see some sort of indication somewhere in the network.

My rule of the thumb, don't believe everything you hear in the Media. They spread more panic and fear then Terrorism itself.

Hopefully you can shed some light on and provide some details on locations and what Railroad would be a starter.

[Mr. Security]

......
Now I can only answer for what I do, I'm very proactive, maybe it's because I'm young but I was always that way in the LP field and I did that for a long time. I look for tracks in the snow/mud. I set things up in the yard that trip off detection that someone was there. I utilize very "Old School" methods to find where my trepassers have been so I know later to start keeping in eye in that area. Plus it's not hard to determine where your points of entry are going to be when you lay out your Physical Security Plan. The rule of thumb is, if someone is in a train yard, they are up to no good......

I am impressed with the way you operate. Keep up the good work! :)

[ACP01]

As one post stated the number of RR PD officers is small.

Now think of the number of rail yards and there are all sizes, not to mention the sidings where HAZ-MAT tankers are often parked for at least a short time.

And as Bill mentioned a Limpit on a car could cause vast devistation in a heavily populated area.

Sometime jot down the UN numbers from tank cars that go thru your area and then look them up in the DOT Guide book. It will get scary.

[Bill Warnock]

As one post stated the number of RR PD officers is small.

Now think of the number of rail yards and there are all sizes, not to mention the sidings where HAZ-MAT tankers are often parked for at least a short time.

And as Bill mentioned a Limpit on a car could cause vast devistation in a heavily populated area.

Sometime jot down the UN numbers from tank cars that go thru your area and then look them up in the DOT Guide book. It will get scary.
ACP01, just such a scenario was exercised and the results were not only scary but mind numbing. Please remember we are dealing the folks who came up with our present day numbering system and Algebra, not ignorant by any measure.
For those with the security guide, you see I was not joking about the precautions!
We keep looking for the chemicals to be brought in; my friends they are already here.
The publication ACP01 mentioned, available online.
ACP01, keep at it, you make us all proud.
Enjoy the day,
Bill

[Gumshoe]

As one post stated the number of RR PD officers is small.

Now think of the number of rail yards and there are all sizes, not to mention the sidings where HAZ-MAT tankers are often parked for at least a short time.

And as Bill mentioned a Limpit on a car could cause vast devistation in a heavily populated area.

Sometime jot down the UN numbers from tank cars that go thru your area and then look them up in the DOT Guide book. It will get scary.

LOL It's funny you mention that, I'm a geek so I carry my Hazmat book in my duty bag and have already done what you suggested and YES it's very scary. I'm looking at getting Hazmat Certified soon, I think it should be a requirement for everyone in the railroad Police/Security Industry.


I'm not saying that a Terrorist attack couldn't happen on the railroad.....I just wanted to clarify that.

In fact I'm the biggest supporter in my department and constantly preach to the other officers (yes I'm the annoying loud mouth rookie) that it can and will happen somewhere. We already seen where trains were utilize for terrorist attacks outside the United States, it's only a matter of time before an attempt or actual plan gets carried out here. God help us all.

We try to preach this to all our surrounding Police Departments, for the most part they are very aggressive against Trespass on the railroad, especailly now that they know we are in the area and will follow up. Last summer a couple of teenagers had the book thrown at them, they threw up some Railroad Ties in a style that actually almost knocked an Amtrak Train off the tracks with 20 something odd passengers on board. They said it was a prank and didn't mean it, but from what I was told they were utilized as an example of what will happen to you when playing on the railroad like that.

You can derail a Freight train carry Tons and tons of Hazmat Chemicals, think of the diaster that would cause. In fact check this out http://www.wabamunresidents.com/spill_gallery.php?id= That's what could happen in your community, possibly by some kids who were just playing on the tracks and didn't realize that they could knock a train that easily off the tracks.


But a quick unrelated story interesting story that just occured the other night while at work.........

Some guy was riding his Mountain Bike down our Right-of-Way next to the tracks. Somehow he fell off his bike, smashed his head on the rail, rolled over away from the tracks. Well a train crew was very observant, notice a bike and then notice a human body right next to the tracks. My partner responded, found the bike and the man. He was bleeding heavy from the head, she was able to direct the ambulance out to the location and get him some first aid. He was lucky he didn't fall into the tracks because we would have found nothing of him, second he was lucky he was discovered in time before he bled out. Some Railroad officers get bored with Patroling our Tracks or Right-of-Ways but you'll be surprised what you find and discover. I'm working on a large Drug case right now, I can't mention the details here until sucessful prosecution. :(



You could only hope that Railroads will hire more officers in the future, at one time we were some of the largest police departments in this country, now there is but a few of us.

[N. A. Corbier]

Who's controlling your budgets? The Railroad, the Federal Government, or is it primarly grant monies?

The Railroads have been steadily cutting back on their LE budges for awhile now. I'm wondering if its affecting profit margins, if the grants aren't there anymore, or if the funding vectors from DOT/DOJ aren't there anymore.

[N. A. Corbier]

http://www.ble.org/pr/news/headline.asp?id=15712
Cause federalizing aviation security worked so well...

Wonder what FOP and other LE unions say about this.

[HotelSecurity]

I could not believe what I read about 2 years ago. CN Rail Police negociated a new labour contract. In the article they mentioned that the department consisted of less than 80 individuals. 80 people to police the rail system of a country bigger than the US! I'm a scanner buff & have CN Police in the scanner. There are never more than 2 one man cars on duty in the Montreal area. I constantly hear them tell the dispatcher to send the local police to the scene because they are too far away.

Rail Police in Canada have full policing powers but unlike most police that get their authority from provincial Police Acts, their's comes from the federal Railway Act. It gives the railways the right to have their own police forces to protect their property. All their property. CP Rail used to own a chain of hotels. In at least one of them, the Chateau Champlain in Montreal, the security director was a CP Rail police officer.

The federal government is just now talking about improving rail security following 9/11. However they seem to be more focused on urban transit systems like the Montreal Metro.

Montreal's Metro (and busses) are patrolled by "Surveillance Agents". They carry PR-24s & handcuffs. They are not police officers, they enforce a city by-law which regulates conduct on the public transit system. They are well paid, about the same as a full time police officer.

http://www.stm.info/English/info/a-agents.htm

It was decided last year that the Montreal Police would take them over starting this year. It hasn't happened yet. There have been delays. I do not agree with Transit Police in urban areas. I think Transit Security is better. Police intervene AFTER incidents. Security PREVENT incidents. (Generally of course!)

[N. A. Corbier]

Police departments are moving more and more into prevention and abatement, for some reason. Perhaps they see a source of off-duty revenue generation, or the private sector is untrustworthy (in their eyes) to secure that area of prevention.

The last issue of Police Magazine has an article about the Conway (Ark) Police Department, which uses federal grants and alot of overtime to provide what amounts to security guard services to retailers. They wrap it up under the "Community Orientated Policing" brand, and will lease a uniformed police officer and vehicle to the retailer. The officer will perform escorts, patrol the lot for disorder, patrol inside for disorder, issue citations as needed in the parking lot (There's about 2 they can write for, its private property after all), and be a visible deterrent.

If they have an arrest, they will summon an on-duty officer to transport.

Does this sound familiar to anyone?

[HotelSecurity]

Yep! It was the magic solution the Montreal Police suggested when we complained about us no longer legally being able to evict a guest who disturbs others. (see my post under Hotel Evictions for more information). We can hire an off-duty Montreal cop for about $67.00/hour. Problem is he still can't throw them out!

[Lawson]

As a joe-schmoe hotel guest, most, it would seem, would be more avid about following the directions of a commissioned police officer who is knocking at my door and telling me to shutup than "just some security guard." It's just another one of those "security can't tell me what to do, go get a REAL cop." kinda thing.

[ycaso77]

I think we have 3 Amtrak police for the whole state, I haven't seen one for months. We also have Metro North Commuter rail police you see driving around but as a regular presence not really. You would assume there would be more security but just a couple months ago it took a tv station walking around for hours in the railroad yard, getting into locomotives and commuter cars and filming it all and the open gates- just to get some holes in the fence repaired. Seems 911 has been forgotten and rail security is at the bottom of the pile.

[Mr. Security]

... You would assume there would be more security but just a couple months ago it took a tv station walking around for hours in the railroad yard, getting into locomotives and commuter cars and filming it all and the open gates- just to get some holes in the fence repaired. Seems 911 has been forgotten and rail security is at the bottom of the pile.

Actually, that TV news program is why I started this thread. Basically, RR security in CT is almost non-existent. But hey, whadda we know? :rolleyes:

[ycaso77]

Actually, that TV news program is why I started this thread. Basically, RR security in CT is almost non-existent. But hey, whadda we know? :rolleyes:

Sad but true. I did hear some rumbles a while back about the state DoT starting thier own security force for stations in CT. Maybe a central monitoring station for CCTV and alarms, but the rumbles have seemed to die off. I know theres Metro North, the few Amtrak cops, maybe a CSX cop or two and some agents for the rail out of Rhode Island. But I'm afraid it will take a whole bunch of candid camera appearances to change anything. Like you said, whadda we know???

[HotelSecurity]

The Canadian Government is putting money into railway security following 9/11 & the terrorists attacks on railways that followed. It will even cover urban railways including subways. The Montreal Metro is greatly increasing it's cctv's & communication system as a result.

[Mr. Security]

The Canadian Government is putting money into railway security following 9/11 & the terrorists attacks on railways that followed. It will even cover urban railways including subways. The Montreal Metro is greatly increasing it's cctv's & communication system as a result.

The United States will do the same, IF something bad happens. Otherwise, business as usual: "We didn't know.... blah, blah, blah." :rolleyes: