My first confrontation

[ff000525]

Hey, had my first "aggressive" customer last night. Just a recap for all who don't know me (pretty much everyone unless you've read my 3 other posts). I work for a large international company in WI, the account is in the scary part of town in a mid size city. So anyways, we have a lot of vehicles in the compound right now, escpecially since a water main broke, and a certian fuel company comes at night to refuel the equipment. I was doing a patrol, all happy to be walking around, hitting my time keys (well, TOCO chips actually) and checking for any discrepencies to write up. The security center calls me and asks me to escort the fuel truck around back to fuel up the equipment. Since I was on foot the truck got there before I did. I walk around the fuel truck to see if the driver found everything ok and I walk into a freaking hornets nest! The driver was all pissed off because the equipment was already fuel and he was "wasting his f***ing time", well it was extremly dark and I couldn't really see him, not to mention where I was walking or the area around us, so I pull out my Surefire G2, point it at the ground and try to talk to the guy. The driver says to me, "turn that light off!" well not really hearing him and not one to take orders from someone on my company grounds (who doesn't even work there) I don't turn my light off and continue to try to talk to the guy while pointing my G2 at his feet. The next thing I know this guy is stomping toward me and yelling "turn your F***ing light of right now!!!!!" Concerned for my saftey I back up two big steps and make a point to call base and let him know that the driver was leaving and why (this is the extent of personal safety training my company has given me). A minute later the driver was sitting in his truck and I go knock on the door, checking to make sure he attempted to refuel all the equipment (per orders posted). Mind you the drivers side of the truck is pretty well lighted (unlike the other side of the truck that I had met him on) and now he can see who he's talking to, he sees the radio and "toco" wand in my hand (I think he thought it was an expandable baton) and immediatley becomes a pretty nice guy. I get my answer (it was even followed with a "sir") and walk away. The next thing I know the driver is pulling his truck up to me and apologizing (in non-certain terms) for yelling at me and asks me if the suit and tie (soft uniform) we wear is normal for security guards. I tell him at this company and site it is. He then tells me that he thought I was just some "suit" telling him what to do and thats why he was pissed off at me. He actually turned out to be a pretty nice guy (that's why his attitude didn't go in my report) when he found out I was just another guy making less than $12 an hour. The only issue I had with the whole exchange is this bassackwards company doesn't issue personal protective equipment or give you the option of carrying it even if you get (or have) the training. This guy was a pretty big guy and could've left me in a bloody pulp there in the alley if he had wanted to. Not to mention, according to him, if I had been wearing a authoruative uniform (though, my feelings are, treat everyone the way you want to be treated no matter what the circumstances), I would've been treated with a small level a respect from the get go. If I didn't need the money to pay for day care, I definatley would go find another job, but oh well. If anyone else has a good confrontation story (I'm sure you guys have ones that will blow this out of the water) feel free to share.

[Mr. Security]

Another reason to hate "soft uniforms." Wear a soft uniform and you'll get a HARD time. That's why I wear my badge in plain sight. It doesn't look cheap and isn't square like the company produces now. Fortunately, the law is not retroactive and my supervisor allows it. As soon as they see the badge, they straighten up and act the way they should anyhow.

By the way, your ToCo wand gave away the company you work for. ;) Also, if the wand appears similar to a stun gun and if the perp. thinks that what it is then don't tell him otherwise. :D

[ff000525]

yeah, I guess the wand thing did, ooppps. Now I have to keep my b*tching and moaning to a minimum. I don't think that we are allowed to display a badge here in WI, I'll have to check my Selected Excerpts.

HHHMMM.... Chapter 440.26 doesn't say anything about badges, I'll have to check the website.

[N. A. Corbier]

Be careful affixing a badge to your suit in Wisconsin. Wisconsin Administrative Code states that a security person is a person in a distinct uniform providing protective services, and that a private investigator is a person in plain clothes providing protective services. PIs may not affix or display any badge or shield.

If you are not immediately identifiable in your uniform from its shoulder or breast patches, or if your uniform does not have said patches, you would be in violation of several Statutes - including impersonating a PI, impersonating a LEO, and WAC violations.

You must be readily identifiable as a guard. It sounds like you were not. Adding a badge to that may result in some kind of legal problem.

Oh, and your company doctrine was not to immediately run away when he became hostile? I'm surprised - that's the only safe option you had. Run away and then radio for police to take over - as his billigerance is now a police problem.

[Mr. Security]

PIs may not affix or display any badge or shield.

If you are not immediately identifiable in your uniform from its shoulder or breast patches, or if your uniform does not have said patches, you would be in violation of several Statutes - including impersonating a PI, impersonating a LEO, and WAC violations.

Same with PI's in Conn. The problem with the company he works for is that the black blazer used is marked with a soft emblem that most people would not recognize as security. They might ask him to hold the door or hail a cab though. :D This is especially true in the dark. It's marked just enough to comply with state regulations, but could be vastly improved.

As for the badge part, thankfully I don't live in Wisconsin. :)

[Taser]

If anyone else has a good confrontation story (I'm sure you guys have ones that will blow this out of the water) feel free to share.
Just last week I confronted a dumpster diver. I pull up on a grocery store that we patrol and I saw a bike leaning against a dumpster. So I shine my spotlight at the dumpster and step out of my vehicle. As I'm approaching the dumpster the lid flies open and this crazy bum pops out. :eek: I about had a coronary, but I unholstered my weapon and ordered him to get out of the dumpster (not pointing it at him, just holding it in front of me). As he got out I holstered my weapon and asked him what he was doing. He gave me the standard excuse that the grocery store doesn't mind if he goes through the dumpster. I asked him why he was doing it at 4:00 a.m. then. He didn't really have anything to say to that. I asked him for ID and he said he didn't have any. So, I decide to have dispatch call the police to have this gentlemen at the very least issued a trespass warning so that he can be arrested if he returns, plus dumpster diving is illegal in this area (city ordinance). So while I'm waiting I tell the guy to just stand at the dumpster, not to move, and to keep his hands out of his pockets. Well, about 30 seconds goes by and he puts his hands in his pockets. I say, "Sir, get your hands out of your pockets unless you want to get hurt! Don't make me tell you again!" So he pulls them out. Then, for whatever reason, he takes about two steps toward me. I tell him to get his a** back against the dumpster, but he doesn't. He steps toward me again, so I whip out my Taser, arm it, and point that red dot right on his chest. "Sir, do not come any closer or I am going to tase you." He was about eight feet from me at this point. When he saw that laser pointing at his chest he just put his hands up and backed himself up against the dumpster. The PD arrived and actually ended up arresting him on a warrant (drug related).

That was my war story for the week. He really wanted to mess with me. I was by myself and wasn't about to back down or show any weakness. I've found that's generally the best route. Our company fortunately does not have a tuck tail and run policy.

[Mr. Security]

The PD arrived and actually ended up arresting him on a warrant (drug related).


He probably knew about the warrant and didn't want to hang around for the police. Since you were the object between him and his freedom, he got aggressive. Too bad you couldn't have locked the dumpster lid while he was still in there. ;)

[Taser]

He probably knew about the warrant and didn't want to hang around for the police. Since you were the object between him and his freedom, he got aggressive. Too bad you couldn't have locked the dumpster lid while he was still in there. ;)
Yeah, there was no way I was letting this guy leave the property. If he tried any more funny stuff, he would have been ridin' the lightning. :D

[OccamsRazor]

If it was a metal dumpster, banging on the side with the ASP always works wonders...

[Taser]

If it was a metal dumpster, banging on the side with the ASP always works wonders...
Yeah, very true. Didn't get to try that out though, he popped out of there like a Jack-in-the-box as I was walking up to the dumpster.

[ff000525]

at this account is a name badge with the company logo on it. No patches or anything. The statutes state that and I quote
"RL 33.03 Identification tags. A private detective agency shall furnish all employes acting as private security personnel with an identification or name tag which shall at a minimum contain the person's name, number or other information which clearly identifies the person and the agency, or the person and the entity contracting with the agency. A private detective agency shall ensure that all employes who act as private security personnel wear identification or name tags which are visible to the public at all times and comply with this rule."

HHHHHHmmmmmm, I haven't even been issued one of those yet. Not to mention, I only have 1 blazer so far, and the first button popped off last night. (Its ok though, that I haven't been issued a metal name tag, I get a little plastic one that no one can see, certinaly not an angry truck driver.)

[Mr. Security]

Personally, I like Guardsmark's uniform. The tradition uniform shirt with epaulets and shoulder boards clearly identify the wearer as an authority figure, namely security. :) The uniform is also somewhat similar to what some European police departments use, which is just fine here in the USA since our police uniforms are considerably different.

[ff000525]

Haven't seen those........guess I'll have to google it

[Mr. Security]

Haven't seen those........guess I'll have to google it

Their website shows the officers with blazers on. You need to find a picture with the blazer removed to see what I mean. We never had to wear our blazers unless the brass was around. Our weather coats allowed for a Guardsmark badge to be affixed.

[EMTGuard]

click-> http://www.amcitguard.com/ <- to see what our hard uniforms look like. Blue shirt over navy slacks. This week I just got issued new shirts and slacks. We are switching to all black. Personally I like the blue shirts. The black makes my dandruff show up too easily. :eek:
Ok, that and the fact that I wore black all those years as a Corrections Officer and I'd rather not wear anything that reminds me of those uniforms.

[Serpico]

He probably knew about the warrant and didn't want to hang around for the police. Since you were the object between him and his freedom, he got aggressive. Too bad you couldn't have locked the dumpster lid while he was still in there. ;)

A good amount of an hostile encounters are because he/she has warrants. One guy stole a few hundred in dvds, when I made contact he took off. He barricaded himself in a restaurant bathroom. Finally gave up and the PD ran him. He had a manslaughter warrant from out of state.

[Mr. Security]

A good amount of an hostile encounters are because he/she has warrants. One guy stole a few hundred in dvds, when I made contact he took off. He barricaded himself in a restaurant bathroom. Finally gave up and the PD ran him. He had a manslaughter warrant from out of state.

Exactly. That's why people run from the police when they attempt to stop them for a minor traffic/equipment violation. People say: "Why do you (police) chase them just because they failed to yield on a traffic stop?" It's not always that simple. Their running for a reason and it's NOT because they forgot to signal. :rolleyes:

[Mr. Security]

click-> http://www.amcitguard.com/ <- to see what our hard uniforms look like. Blue shirt over navy slacks. This week I just got issued new shirts and slacks. We are switching to all black. Personally I like the blue shirts. The black makes my dandruff show up too easily. :eek:
Ok, that and the fact that I wore black all those years as a Corrections Officer and I'd rather not wear anything that reminds me of those uniforms.

Now that's the way a s/o should look. :) None of this "soft" doorman uniform look.

[Taser]

Now that's the way a s/o should look. :) None of this "soft" doorman uniform look.
Our night patrol just recently switched to a more tactical look. We're wearing the 5.11 "TDUs" in dark navy. They're working out great so far. We also switched to a more subdued patch on the shoulders and we now have an embroidered badge on our shirts rather than a shiney metal one. It's much more comfortable and much more practical, especially for night patrol.

We used to be wearing dark navy Class A polyester unforms with basketweave leather duty gear. Most of us on nights had switched to nylon duty gear (I, in fact, NEVER ONCE wore the leather :D ) much to the chagrin of our boss. Now we're all wearing nylon and I managed to talk a couple other guys into buying some tactical suspenders.

The only way to describe our new uniforms: bad ass. :cool:

They really are much more practical and appropriate for night work. Our boss kind of gave in after lots of lobbying from the night crew. He is an old school ex-cop and is really into the professional Class A look. We convinced him that because we don't see as many people at night any people who would be put off by our tactical uniforms won't be out and about (as if anyone would care) and that it will give us a more intimidating edge over all of the unsavory characters we contact at night.

Day shift is still wearing dark navy Class A polyester uniforms with basketweave leather duty gear. Hahahaha! :D

[Serpico]

Exactly. That's why people run from the police when they attempt to stop them for a minor traffic/equipment violation. People say: "Why do you (police) chase them just because they failed to yield on a traffic stop?" It's not always that simple. Their running for a reason and it's NOT because they forgot to signal. :rolleyes:


Couldn't agree more. The only time I can think of that might be an exception to the rule would be when you're dealing with a fleeing preteen or early teen. They just dont wanna get their ass busted up by their parents ;)

[N. A. Corbier]

An old supervisor had a strange story. Homeless man comes up to him, in an industrial park in South Saint Petersburg, and says, "I'm tired of running anymore." The supervisor is now wondering wtf, and asks the man what's going on. The supervisor is then informed that the homeless man is wanted in another state for murder. After handcuffing the man at gunpoint, the supervisor calls the police and he's indeed arrested on a murder warrant by SPPD.The initial reason for contact was that the man was dumpster diving. He saw a uniform, was tired of the constant running, and surrendered himself to the first uniform he saw.

[Mr. Security]

Couldn't agree more. The only time I can think of that might be an exception to the rule would be when you're dealing with a fleeing preteen or early teen. They just dont wanna get their ass busted up by their parents ;)

Good point. :)

[Mr. Security]

......
And why not take a minute to salute one of our colleagues.

"The bomb was hidden in a knapsack, which was found by security guard Richard Jewell before it detonated. The device went off while security teams were trying to evacuate the area, killing one woman and injuring more than 100. Presumably, the Olympics were targeted for a combination of multiracial and "New World Order" overtones."

Poor guy got shafted on that one! Security gets no respect.

And how! Sometimes LE is so sure that they have their man that they focus the bulk of their resources trying to make a "square peg fit into a round hole." We know that innocent people are in prison because several others have been released after DNA evidence cleared them. When being questioned by LE, it is wise to exercise your right to remain silent until you have an attorney present.

This has nothing to do with how you feel about LE. It's simply being cognizant that police are human and can make mistakes or be pressured to make an arrest because of a crime's notoriety and/or gravity.

I believe Richard won a lawsuit and was eventually hired as a sheriff's deputy. :)

[Echos13]

This is a case of a rather unusual ?confrontation? for me that happened about two months ago. In Florida they have changed the way one can use deadly force when being confronted by a criminal. Weather in or near your home or vehicle. It use to be one was required to make any and all means to retreat from the threat. Run into your house, get to your car and drive off or hide (how?). Etc., Etc. Now one can take immediate action upon such things with out even so much as a warning to the would be attacker. It has caused a few headaches for some of us Private Protection Officers and Security people of other duties. I have had at least two cases of people thinking they were intervening in a possible ATM brake in or scam. They come up demanding to know whats going on. Both cases I knew they were ether in hand or close to a weapon they had with them in their car or on their person. I had to draw down on one guy who almost ran over me and was ready to take matters into his own hands. He fled when he realized he was in a bad tactical position. That or he realized he jumped the gun and was about to become a statistic himself because of his stupidity. Since he never produced a weapon (though I could see him reaching around his lap area) and I had taken up a position that his vehicle could not go any further it turned out well. We do not wear the traditional uniform and our vehicles are not marked nor are the ATM techs. But there are times the tech?s use hazards lights and I use my corner strobes for some details. Anyone with common sense can see my badge and ID hanging around my neck, and see tech equipment lying all over the place. Others see what they want to see I guess. I am all for taking out the bad guy if you?re in the right. But it seems that maybe this law has opened a can of worms here. I have been hearing of similar instances of such events that so far no one has been hurt or killed thank God. My point is this. Though other states have this law has it created a monster? These gun toting John Wayne types now have something to use and go out looking for trouble. Those of us in security including our bothers and sisters in LE that work low profile duties tend to be target for people with cowboy tunnel vision. Has anyone here experienced this problem? Again, I think it?s a good idea. But it seems to have brought out the green eye monster in some people.

[Mr. Security]

...... In Florida they have changed the way one can use deadly force when being confronted by a criminal. Weather in or near your home or vehicle. It use to be one was required to make any and all means to retreat from the threat. Run into your house, get to your car and drive off or hide (how?). Etc., Etc. Now one can take immediate action upon such things with out even so much as a warning to the would be attacker.

I'm not surprised that this law has the potential for problems. When it comes to laws regarding the use of deadly force by civilians, I prefer the way it is here and many other places. There has to be an imminent threat to ones life and escape is not possible. The exception is a threat to your life by an intruder inside your home. In that case, escape/retreat is not required.

[N. A. Corbier]

Also, don't forget, you can't threaten to use force unless you, or the client's tech, is being threatened with bodily harm or death. FSS 493 prohibits security officers from using force or the threat of force to protect property.

However, the law also states that you have no duty to retreat if you have a lawful purpose for being there. You have a lawful purpose for being there. If someone threatens you over being over an open ATM - they have no law enforcement authority and are in fact an aggressor. You have lawful authority to ask them to leave (You cannot legally remove them by threat of force under 493, the tech can, though), and defend yourself against their criminal activity (trespass after warning, aggrivated assault, etc) once they refuse to leave.

[Echos13]

Also, don't forget, you can't threaten to use force unless you, or the client's tech, is being threatened with bodily harm or death. FSS 493 prohibits security officers from using force or the threat of force to protect property.

However, the law also states that you have no duty to retreat if you have a lawful purpose for being there. You have a lawful purpose for being there. If someone threatens you over being over an open ATM - they have no law enforcement authority and are in fact an aggressor. You have lawful authority to ask them to leave (You cannot legally remove them by threat of force under 493, the tech can, though), and defend yourself against their criminal activity (trespass after warning, aggrivated assault, etc) once they refuse to leave.

Indeed, all of this was going threw my mind during the whole time. How ever, when he used his truck like some kind of intimidation tool I figured he had done shown his intentions to the point I felt I was in danger. The look on this guys face was more like the joker than the Batman. But I kept my cool, instructed the tech to get into his van. I had the police on 911 speed dail and auto GPS. I had asked him to leave several times and he just "backed off" about two car lengths while I stood next to the tech's van and used it as protection from ether possible firearm or even "car" attack. Then he left as quicly as he came. The police where about a minute behind him. They never found the guy dispite an excellent discription of the driver, truck and a partial tag. As for the tech telling this guy to leave, yea right. He was too busy hiding behind the steering wheel. Our policy is that when such situations develop it becomes a security matter. The tech advised us to tell the person(s) under his right to be there to leave. As for the florida statues and laws, I figured him being the main player with rights to be there the tech advising us to act on his behalf gives us the authority to act on problems that go -beyound- his control. If securtiy feels it's not a safety issue the techs can ask people to leave first, yes. But after they decide to get unruley or hostile it's all by the numbers. Ask to leave by verbal means (if they decide to get nasty) = protect the tech -and myself- (depending on the subjects actions), police, take up position to protect (also, depends on subjects actions) or leave if possible.

[N. A. Corbier]

The reason I noted the tech can, is because the tech is not governed under FSS 493. They can use force to protect property, whereas a contract security officer cannot.