Incident tracking

[Spyyman]

I'm wondering if anyone is familiar with incident tracking software that is applicable to a gated community. The HOA is looking for a software program that is all inclusive. In other words, a program where not only can incidents be tracked, but searched by a number of entry fields. They are looking for a program that will handle incidents, citations, evidence logs, etc.

Any info would be appreciated.

Thanks

[N. A. Corbier]

ReportExec is one.

[SecTrainer]

I apologize that for the long post here, but as you frame the question there are many issues to consider and you have some hard spade work to do if you want to do this right. It isn't a matter of dialing up the "Acme Incident Tracking Software Company" and ordering their product. What you want, as you express it, is a great deal of capability but the details of each capability you describe are what you have to nail down. What should this thing really do, and what should it look like...exactly?

As a way of getting your feet wet with respect to the issues involved in your question, here's a demo of a product called Form Stream that is very educational about features you might want in any product of this type that you might look at: Form Stream Demo (http://www.patronsystems.net/demo/) .

There's a lot of software out there, of course, and their features differ widely so that it's very important to start with a needs analysis in order to identify at least the following:

1. "Mandatory" capabilities for the system...what are we trying to accomplish and WHY? You really need to have a very firm grip on the business reasons for implementing this software...for instance, are you just trying to automate some existing processes, or are you looking for capabilities that will give you a competitive advantage? If it's the former, which processes, and how can they be automated? If it's the latter, you need to identify exactly how this system will give you the edge - for instance, "To enable us to provide clients with incident reports that they can access via the Internet within x time after the incident." Another might be: "To provide operational efficiencies by enabling us to analyze calls for service by time of day and geographical area, thereby giving us a price advantage." Always try to express competitive advantages in terms of what they will do for the client - better, faster, cheaper service, for instance - not just the advantages to your own operation.

2. "Desirable but not mandatory" capabilities...

3. Legacy (already in-place) software issues and constraints...

4. Legacy hardware issues and constraints...

5. Information security issues and constraints.

Obviously, it is usually highly desirable, if the company has already made a significant investment in legacy systems, to enhance their usefulness rather than to scrap them and reinvent the wheel. If you don't already have a database, mobile data terminals/computers, etc. so much the better - you can start from scratch without any legacy considerations.

With this list in hand, you need to create the project parameters:

1. What is the budget for this project?

2. Who is going to manage it?

3. Who else will be on the project team? Include representatives from the various user groups!

4. What are the critical milestones for the project from inception to implementation?

5. What are the time frames for each of the milestones?

Even for small companies, implementation of software with the capabilities you're discussing DOES involve a project mentality, and this means project management...you don't just shoot from the hip and go "buy something" that you think is slick or that you heard the ABC Security Company is using. Use software like Microsoft Project to manage even small projects.

One thing that I've noticed when working on projects like these is that people sometimes tend to focus too much on the database "subsystem" in the overall system. Experience has shown repeatedly that the data-gathering (reporting) and data-querying/retrieval subsystems are far more critical than the database itself. These form the interface between the user and the database and are the biggest determinants in how easily and how accurately information is gathered, and also how easily and intuitively the information can then be searched and retrieved. Spend time getting the reporting/retrieval interface right and let that drive the database design rather than the other way around, or you'll probably regret it.

For instance, you might have noticed that Form Stream, mentioned above, is very much focused on the interface:

1. Converts existing paper forms to electronic format. You can also obviously customize and create new electronic forms. For agencies that have made a significant investment in designing their paper forms, this is very important.

2. Ties the electronic forms to the database so they can be prepopulated with information when they are "opened" by the officer to be filled in - for instance, automatically assigning a case number, incident codes, etc.

3. Provides for the electronic form to be completed in the field and then submitted even over low-speed wireless connections.

4. Provides for intelligent data-checking within the form itself to prevent the wrong type of information from being entered in a particular field. For instance, does the information entered into a phone number field "look like" a valid phone number? Does it have a valid area code and prefix? Is the entry in a gender field either an "M" or an "F"? Is the individual's height within a valid range? Is a mandatory field filled in? Invalid data is rejected automatically and the form itself cannot be submitted if a mandatory field is left blank. This kind of capability, incidentally, is absolutely on the "mandatory" list above if you hope to maintain any semblance of integrity in your database.

5. Provides for the form to be approved by a supervisor if need be, and then processed automatically and immediately. It is thus reflected in the database in "real time".

6. Provides a standardized query/reporting function to enable remote retrieval of information.

When you look at these capabilities, you can see how you might want to look for similar abilities in any product you consider.

Of absolutely huge importance, IMHO, is that the product be based on XML. This is a universal meta-language that basically adds the capability of turning a document into a set of pre-defined data fields that can therefore be recognized by software and processed electronically. Of course, it also provides the necessary features to permit specification of the document presentation as well (font, bolding, tables, etc.)

By way of contrast, HTML - the basic language of Web pages - only provides presentation capabilities...in other words, how the document will look. You cannot (easily) identify specific data items within an HTML document.

XML is "configurable", so anyone can develop their own XML document data fields and presentation specifications. However, it's not quite that chaotic because various industries such as healthcare, the banking industry, etc., have developed their own "official XML versions", so to speak, in which everyone in that industry agrees to use certain well-defined data fields (called a data set) for exchanging information because all systems, for instance, use a 15-character alphanumeric field for the case number.

The justice system is no exception to industry-specific XML development. Here is a reference to the Global Justice XML page:Global Justice XML Data Model (http://it.ojp.gov/topic.jsp?topic_id=43).

If you watched the Form Stream demo, you will have noticed that it's based on this particular Global Justice "version" of XML - not just "generic XML". However, even "generic XML" is so powerful and useful in adding "data" capabilities to forms that I wouldn't consider any product today that was not at least based on "generic XML". I'd seriously prefer one specifically based on the GJ version of XML because I see an increasing likelihood of the need for and the desirability of being able to exchange information - particularly intelligence - between public and private agencies out over the future.

I was interested that Form Stream appears to support a "payment module" whereby an electronic form can be tied into a third-party (credit card) payment handler. This might have a number of intriguing uses in our field - payment of parking citations, for instance, or for services that might be charged on a per-incident basis, such as a fee levied for a false alarm response, or a special for-fee service like an individualized business security survey, a monthly charge for a "distress alarm" home service, etc. I haven't personally examined the details of this feature with respect to Form Stream and there are many ways of skinning that cat if you use a different product, just as long as you can execute a payment-handling "script"/program and have an account set up with a card-payment provider.

Lots to think about! Whatever you do, don't make a hasty decision. Think it through and do the hard work of developing specifications up front. Better still, for something like this that appears to form a significant information foundation for your company, I'd engage the services of a consultant for at least long enough to help define the critical issues noted above and, even better, to assist in creating a proper RFP/RFQ to give to the many different vendors you'll find out there. Such an RFP/RFQ should not only specify the characteristics of the software you need, but also things you might not think of like user training, maintenance, scalability, etc...and that's where the consultant can really save your bacon.

[Bill Warnock]

PPM 2000 is offered for your consideration. The system affords consolidation on most DOS seamlessly as a software management tool; incident tracking, report writing, investigation management, trend analysis, parking management, lost and found control, key control and activity logging.
With this system you can justify your security budget, the buzz acronym ROI or return on investment which seems to warm the cockles of their hearts.
PPM 2000 offers training and on site support which is a lot better than going through page after page of an instruction manual most often written by engineers for the benefit of other engineers.
They provide a free demostration disk which will ease your concerns.
Visit their website http://www.ppm2000.com
Regardless of which system you choose, it is only as good as you make it. No system can read your mind. There are prompts that prevent you from entering data in the wrong place. The system is as idiot as they can make it. But remember always, "Garbage in, garbage out."
Enjoy the day,
Bill

[SecTrainer]

Regardless of which system you choose, it is only as good as you make it. No system can read your mind. There are prompts that prevent you from entering data in the wrong place. The system is as idiot as they can make it. But remember always, "Garbage in, garbage out."

Absolutely. The minute you start using any system, as the laws of entropy predict, it begins to deteriorate as people inevitably begin to enter flawed or incomplete information...and there are also potential system gotchas as well. No matter how fancy the system, it can become virtually worthless in a very short period of time if it's populated with garbage, and this is often the biggest reason that systems like this disappoint their users.

Even something that seems as simple as a street address can cause problems. For instance, can the system recognize that "Ave" is the abbreviation for "Avenue" when you make an address query? Good! Now, what about "Ave."? AVE? AVE.? etc., etc. Either you have to control all of these variables when the data is input, or the query engine will have to recognize that they are equivalents when people are querying the system.

An entire record - or numbers of records - might be omitted from a query, for instance, if the system either did not initially restrict the data entry and/or cannot handle the various possibilities of data expressions. If the name "Johnston" had been entered as "Johnson", or "Smythe" as "Smith", etc., and there is no provision for handling misinformation or for doing a "fuzzy" search on name sound-alike spellings, you soon find yourself with what amounts to a very fancy collection of garbage.

...and the problem, incidentally, isn't really so much "garbage in, garbage out", but "garbage in, GOSPEL out" - or believing that the misinformation that we retrieve from our garbage input is actually good information. We take it on faith (we almost have to, many times!), act on it, and then learn that our information is wrong.

Incidentally, if you watch the demo in my previous post, you'll note that much is made of the elimination of the "data entry" step. In fact, the step isn't eliminated...it's moved out to the field instead. Here, a very interesting question arises as to whether the officer is really the proper data entry clerk in terms of his typing and spelling abilities, which may be rotten, the distractions in the field, the time pressures of other calls, etc...and you might want to ask whether you really do want to eliminate the step of having data entered by highly-skilled people who are dedicated to just doing data entry, given the critical importance of this step in terms of the value of your whole system. An alternative would be to have the officer complete the form but then to route it to a "data editor"...someone who scans the data form for potential problems, fixes them...and then releases it to the database. Yes, either option (data clerk or data editor) adds cost, but I've seen how some officers type, and how badly some of them spell...and the thought of that junk going into a database just doesn't bear thinking about.

[Spyyman]

I'd like to thank everyone for their input. I suspect what I am looking for is the same software system we had in LE where everything, and I mean everything that occured was entered into one program. I could search for a multitude of information in the one program. I'm skeptical that such a system exists in the private sector. Let me say that I am not responsible for security in the community but only volunteered to assisit (mistake?) :D .

In any event I will research the iformation that you have provided, and again offer my appreciation for your input. :) :)

[Bill Warnock]

I'd like to thank everyone for their input. I suspect what I am looking for is the same software system we had in LE where everything, and I mean everything that occured was entered into one program. I could search for a multitude of information in the one program. I'm skeptical that such a system exists in the private sector. Let me say that I am not responsible for security in the community but only volunteered to assisit (mistake?) :D .

In any event I will research the iformation that you have provided, and again offer my appreciation for your input. :) :)
SecTrainer:
The demo does show in great detail the movement of data. It also explains as does the ppm 2000 the problems with spelling and other erroneous data and the training level of personnel entering data.
Spyyman now has a snapshot of what can and does go wrong when careless data clerks are at work.
I was a security specialist/inspector for a military agency. When checking ammunition records, many of my cohorts would check the records given to them by inspected agency. I tried to go to the original tally provided by the shipper. Trouble loomed when there were major discrepancies. I was instructed not to write it up. I didn't, but before leaving I had a guest visit my hotel/motel room. The CID, AFOSI or NIS carried the ball from there. The results were most interesting. Some entries were simple mistake others were attempts to cover up theft.
Enjoy the day,
Bill

[Spyyman]

SecTrainer:
The demo does show in great detail the movement of data. It also explains as does the ppm 2000 the problems with spelling and other erroneous data and the training level of personnel entering data.
Spyyman now has a snapshot of what can and does go wrong when careless data clerks are at work.
I was a security specialist/inspector for a military agency. When checking ammunition records, many of my cohorts would check the records given to them by inspected agency. I tried to go to the original tally provided by the shipper. Trouble loomed when there were major discrepancies. I was instructed not to write it up. I didn't, but before leaving I had a guest visit my hotel/motel room. The CID, AFOSI or NIS carried the ball from there. The results were most interesting. Some entries were simple mistake others were attempts to cover up theft.
Enjoy the day,
Bill

Bill,

I understand what you are saying about careless data entry clerks. I was the Lt. in charge of the crime analysis bureau for a time, and that was our major problem. Fortunately for me I went back to commanding the detective bureau and didn't have to concern myself with data clerks.

But I do appreciate the input from you guys. :) :)

[Bill Warnock]

Bill,

I understand what you are saying about careless data entry clerks. I was the Lt. in charge of the crime analysis bureau for a time, and that was our major problem. Fortunately for me I went back to commanding the detective bureau and didn't have to concern myself with data clerks.

But I do appreciate the input from you guys. :) :)
Spyyman:
At and in this forum we try to help each other. There is more than enough work for all of us. As SecTrainer pointed out the system can suddenly go down for no apparent reason. There is always an answer and in many instances we don't want to know or hear it. Why? We might have to correct the problem. A 2000-volt surge can do a number on system. If there is sufficient damage to fry everything, it just lays there like a beached whale. If we can reboot, damage done may corrupt the data and another hit will cause it to fail. Power failures along with other electrical anomalies cause mischief. Some Einstein forgot to exercise the batteries in the UPSs. To compensate for his laziness, he or she will pencil whip the forms. It goes on and on.
Enjoy the day,
Bill

[Mr. Security]

It's going to happen. Find a system like the one McDonalds uses for order entry. It's about as fool proof as can be for good reason. ;)

Note: I said fool proof; not idiot proof.

[Spyyman]

Once again I would like to thank each of your for your input. This is indeed a user friendly forum, and it's refreshing to encounter so many people who are willing to help.

Thanks again everyone. :) :)

P.S. I found a program that I think will work great for the HOA. It is called the IRINDEX Program, and thanks to one of you, I found it.

[SecTrainer]

IRINDEX might be one option among many, many others. Frankly, it doesn't look very professional to me, including the "home" website URL itself. The pricing is also highly suspicious, meaning that it's much too low to encourage me to believe that it's a well-supported, professional software product. I would urge you PLEASE not to avoid the hard work that I have recommended you do just because you find a cheap product.

[Mr. Security]

Maybe he doesn't need a "Rolls-Royce" system when a "Chevy" will do.

[Spyyman]

As I said previosly, being retired from LE, I am familiar with excellent incident tracking systems. The problem I have is that the HOA Board of Directors isn't willing to spend a great deal of money for a premium system, and as Mr. Security said, our needs aren't that great. Personally I just like to be thorough.

You guys have been a great help with your suggestions. Eventually, if and when the BOD decides to implement a new system, I'll touch bases with you again and let you know what they chose.

There is a world of private security experience on this forum, and it is generous of each of you to share it.

Thanks :) :)

[Bill Warnock]

As I said previosly, being retired from LE, I am familiar with excellent incident tracking systems. The problem I have is that the HOA Board of Directors isn't willing to spend a great deal of money for a premium system, and as Mr. Security said, our needs aren't that great. Personally I just like to be thorough.

You guys have been a great help with your suggestions. Eventually, if and when the BOD decides to implement a new system, I'll touch bases with you again and let you know what they chose.

There is a world of private security experience on this forum, and it is generous of each of you to share it.

Thanks :) :)
Spyyman:
Tout the ROI aspects of power conditioning and UPS. When the system crashes due to an unexpected power outage and it becomes necessary to reload, how much time and man-hours will it take to upload and verify the veracity of the data. Also mention that verification will be time consuming especially if you have no hard copy to crosscheck the data. A UPS will preclude sudden power losses and fill in gaps in the electrical service provided. Consider renting a power analyzer and operate it for one week at 24-7 and check the readouts.
Just a couple of suggestions I've learned the hard way having been on both sides of the fence.
And, welcome to the world of private security where poverty row does exist along with some forlorn federal systems I know of.
Enjoy the day,
Bill

[SecTrainer]

Spyyman:
Tout the ROI aspects of power conditioning and UPS.

Right. ...and don't use an outlet that's on a wall switch that the janitor will come in and turn off as one of our branch managers inadvertently did once! Every morning we got the same complaint about the system going down around 2 AM, sometimes interrupting the data dump from the branch. There was no other evidence of power failure at the branch (clocks stopped, etc.). We dinked around remotely diagnosing the system until I finally had to travel the 80 miles to the branch and sit in the office one night in order to figure out what was happening!

Turns out the janitor had initially yanked the cord on the server power strip out of the wall one night when he was sweeping, and then plugged it back into the wrong outlet nearby - one that was controlled by the wall switch. If he'd plugged it into the right one, we'd only have had the outage that one night. As it was, every morning when he left he very faithfully and religiously crashed the system for us as he turned out the lights.

Oh well, at least it was easy overtime for me when I'd been dreading possibly having to tear into or replace the server. None of us had any idea that any of the outlets were on the wall switch circuit, but it seemed kinda dumb we didn't think of that possibility. :D

[N. A. Corbier]

Maybe he doesn't need a "Rolls-Royce" system when a "Chevy" will do.

This is a simple Visual Basic or VB for Access program written by two people. Neither are most likely professionals...

That said, there's no reason to deploy a huge RMS system requiring the infrastructure behind it when a simple Access database (even though I loathe Access) will do.

Keep in mind, I'm one of those open source guys.

[SecTrainer]

I think that some might have the misconception that you should only do needs analysis and approach the implementation with a "project" mindset when you're looking for the "Rolls Royce" class of software or "an enormous RMS system". Nothing could be further from the truth...you do it whenever you buy software - "big" or "small" - that will be used to implement important business processes, as incident tracking most certainly is for any of us. This is like picking out a company vehicle by throwing darts at the newspaper ads. After all, they all have an engine, four wheels, seats and a steering wheel, don't they?

Needs analysis is nothing more than figuring out what you need the application to do. It can be done, if there's some kind of all-fired rush here, in as little as a day or less of brain-storming. I fail to see how anyone can justify buying anything having to do with business information systems, even something as trivial as a modem, without at least knowing exactly what it needs to do, what features it should have and, if applicable, what known standards it must meet...to say nothing of not having a good handle on the range of products available and even what "extra" features some might have for the same price as some others.

And, I have to say that anyone should be enormously skeptical of any commercial product when the "home page" for that product is sitting at an URL like "www.fastwilly.com/betty/TickleMeElmo/BigBird"...and when the price of the product that clearly proclaims what the people selling it think about the product themselves, which isn't much! I'm not saying that there isn't a lot of OVERpriced software out there because there is, but I'm even more suspicious of low-ball prices when it comes to software that I'm going to run in my business.

...and there's always this idea: If you're just going to implement a solution that's little more than a simple Access database or Excel spreadsheet, there are a lot of people out there who will happily create a custom "application" just for your company that will suit your needs even better for not that much money...and you'll have someone to scream at if something goes wrong. IRINDEX itself doesn't look like it could have taken much more than a couple of weeks of "programming", given all the "wizards" that are available in the Office products. In Access, once you've defined the data tables, their relationships and the basic queries (which doesn't take long even for projects involving a couple of dozen tables) everything else like creating input/output forms and reports is like falling off a log, so to speak.

I'm a VBA chunker myself just for quick-and-dirty apps. I created an Access-based transcription-tracking application, "TransTrak" (clever, eh?) for a small 80-bed psychiatric hospital in California that had been losing their paper documents all the time. (I did take about a week to determine the specs even for this little application.) Well, when I showed it to them, THEY all thought it was a miracle - the best thing since bibs for babies - but I knew it really wasn't any such thing. If they had needed much more horsepower, or a secure networked app, TransTrak wouldn't have made the grade. Since they had assured me that there were no plans even on the distant horizon to grow larger than they were, it was just enough for their needs, as I was very careful to tell them.

What's important to know about this story is that even though I created all kinds of snazzy reports and forms in the application (about 20, I think), there were reports that I hadn't thought of that the hospital decided they needed, and when they came back to me with a list of about 10 more it took me just one morning to create them all, because you already have the foundation defined. All you have to do is (maybe) set up new table relationships, create the query behind each report or form, and then generate the report or form itself based on that query.

This further customized their "product" and made them even happier with it. It was also customized because all the reports included their logo, their privacy statements, etc. This is the real value of just having someone do it for you if your needs are reasonably lightweight.

I was charging $75/hr for simple Office apps at that time, and I think that TransTrak itself, including 2 hours of training for the staff and a 20-page user's "manual" that I printed up, wound up costing the hospital around $2200, including the mods. I billed out the consultation separately because it was dealing with many other IT issues. So, if it's a difference of between, say, $200 for someone else's idea of the application and maybe a $couple grand or so for a custom design that specifically fits your own needs, why not roll your own? You'll be happier with it, I'd almost guarantee.

[Bill Warnock]

Explaining needs analysis to bean counters and those wearing green eyeshades is like collecting a basket of rooster eggs. They can't see beyond their own little world and unfortunately, their boss and your boss are in two diffrent directorates. The language is not common and if anything goes haywire, it's your fault even though you were never consulted about the equipment that suddenly arrives at the door and has no earthly correlation to your needs analysis. Then this person can tell his boss how much money he saved by not buying that frivolous thing "those security types" wanted to spend.
When the system goes bust and your boss has to report why, the procurement types suddenly disappear.
Enjoy the day,
Bill

[Mr. Security]

Right. ...and don't use an outlet that's on a wall switch that the janitor will come in and turn off as one of our branch managers inadvertently did once! Every morning we got the same complaint about the system going down around 2 AM, sometimes interrupting the data dump from the branch. There was no other evidence of power failure at the branch (clocks stopped, etc.). We dinked around remotely diagnosing the system until I finally had to travel the 80 miles to the branch and sit in the office one night in order to figure out what was happening!

Turns out the janitor had initially yanked the cord on the server power strip out of the wall one night when he was sweeping, and then plugged it back into the wrong outlet nearby - one that was controlled by the wall switch. If he'd plugged it into the right one, we'd only have had the outage that one night. As it was, every morning when he left he very faithfully and religiously crashed the system for us as he turned out the lights.

Oh well, at least it was easy overtime for me when I'd been dreading possibly having to tear into or replace the server. None of us had any idea that any of the outlets were on the wall switch circuit, but it seemed kinda dumb we didn't think of that possibility. :D

At least it wasn't the guard this time. :eek:

[davis002]

I would suggest taking a look at ReportExec. http://www.report-software.com
Case Reporting
Field Interview Reporting
Case Manager
Daily Event Log
Computer Aided Dispatch (CAD)
Citations and Warnings Module
BOLO Screen with Digital Imaging
Officer Training and Tracking
Master Name Search
Property Manager
Photo Lineups Module
Vehicle History Tracking
Arrest and Booking Module
Parking Permit
Daily/Monthly/Yearly/Custom Statistics
Separate Alarm, Damage, Fire, Injury, and Theft Reporting Screens
Lost & Found Property Tracking
Instant Contact Reports and Histories


I suggest going to the site, download the demo, and give it a test drive. If you have any questions or want to see an example case report, tow report, etc. Feel free to private message me.

[SecTrainer]

I would suggest taking a look at ReportExec. [URL=http://www.report-software.com]http://www.report-software.com[/URL...(feature list omitted from quote)...I suggest going to the site, download the demo, and give it a test drive. If you have any questions or want to see an example case report, tow report, etc. Feel free to private message me.

This is much more along the lines of what I would expect to see in a professional-grade product...or, actually, products (there are several here). As with many others of this grade, the pricing is based on "licenses", whether "users" or "concurrent users", and requires careful consideration.

"Concurrent users" presents a question not unlike telephone queuing theory, which tries to identify how many people will typically be using the phone system simultaneously. In looking at this issue, phone engineers have developed a notion called "the busy hour", meaning the time of peak demand. It is this "busy hour" traffic that drives the decision about what minimum facilities (trunks, switches, etc.) are required to serve "x" number of users. You can use a similar approach - not formally, of course, but just in a "down-and-dirty" way - by basing the licenses you need based on how many concurrent users you're likely to want to have "online" at the busiest time of the day.

This seems to be a good example of the kind of software that you'd be more comfortable basing your business processes on, compared to some of the others that have been mentioned.

[Squidly]

A lot of interesting points in here!!
Sectrainer we are using an access database system which was created inhouse. In prinicpal it works ok but as stating in in of the posts it is not fool/idiot proof.
With our system I do the majority of the data interpreting and the biggest problem that I have is that there is no failsafe measures for the person filing the report to skip things like a simple droptab. Without a correctly filled out report you lose key information for stats.
Another point is the legality of the data/report in a court of law. I know with our DB the information could be changed at a later date. There are other systems that this could be done also. When looking at reporting systems there needs to be fool proof reports, such as if a field is blank it alerts you, when you hit save that is the end of the matter and it can not be tampered with at a later date etc.
The system we have is ok but obsolete fields can not be deleted such as old staff etc. if you delete it you lose the information in the old reports.
Agreed I hate access but I have a resonable knowledge of the system. But I still havent worked out how to overcome these problems!! Anyone??

[SecTrainer]

Another point is the legality of the data/report in a court of law. I know with our DB the information could be changed at a later date. There are other systems that this could be done also. When looking at reporting systems there needs to be fool proof reports, such as if a field is blank it alerts you, when you hit save that is the end of the matter and it can not be tampered with at a later date etc.
The system we have is ok but obsolete fields can not be deleted such as old staff etc. if you delete it you lose the information in the old reports.
Agreed I hate access but I have a resonable knowledge of the system. But I still havent worked out how to overcome these problems!! Anyone??

A few suggestions, if I might:

1. Presuming that your data (reports, etc.) are being accessed by bound forms, you would set the "AllowEdits", "AllowDeletions" and "AllowAdditions" properties of the data retrieval form(s) all to NO. You can do this via the form's property sheet, or by way of a macro or Visual Basic.

As a matter of good DB practice, always use separate forms for data entry (and report creation) and data retrieval. In other words, a data entry form would never access existing records anyway, and would have at least the "AllowAdditions" and "AllowEdits" properties set to "YES" rather than "NO". You can think about whether you want "AllowDeletions" set to "YES" or "NO".

The data retrieval forms are the ones that would have the properties set to "NO" as noted above. All the user can do with such forms is to view/print data; they cannot change it.

2. You probably would not like a database that allowed NO editing via forms. You can create data editing forms that will only function on entry of the password of certain users like supervisors, as well.

3. There are a number of ways to verify that fields in a data entry form have not been skipped (do not have empty values), as well as to make sure that the values entered are of a certain type, format and range. These are discussed under topics like "data verification", etc. in most decent Access books and most are quite easily implemented.

Some methods of data verification are established at the time of table design, but can be changed afterward. Others involve the data entry forms, forcing the user to move through the form in stepwise fashion and preventing them from leaving a field until there is some "change" (or entry) to the field.

4. Finally, assuming that at least some limited editing capabilities are desirable, there are ways to audit, or track, such changes to Access records. With audit capabilities, it is then sufficient (and better) to be able to testify that the audit trail shows that the report has not been changed, or how it was changed. "Yes, the record was updated on 5/15/2006 to correct the subject's date of birth. There have been no other changes to the record." This kind of testimony will NOT invalidate the legality of a report, but rather would tend to corroborate it because no one will ever believe that there is ABSOLUTELY no way to ever change data in a database and opposing council would have a field day if that's the approach you try to take. Better to say "Well, yes...of course you can change certain aspects of our records, but we know about it when a change is made, what the change was, who made it and when because we have an audit trail."

Building audit features into your database, even an existing one, can be done fairly easily, but it does require a modest ability with VBA. You could build your main application yourself using basic skills, and then "job out" programming the auditing function of the database. It's not a major project. Basically, it amounts to the creation of a table that uses a fairly simple routine to track changes "behind the scenes", while also recording the user, date and time of the change. The user is unaware this is going on.

Since such audit tables can grow very large, the auditing routine will need to incorporate some maintenance elements, such as the ability to "dump" to a compressed file, removable media, etc.

Of course, if you add audit capabilities to an existing DB, it will only be able to say what happens to your records going forward, not what's happened to any records before it was implemented.

Hope this helps!

[Squidly]

Thanks Sectrainer... I will take a look and see what we can do!!
Shale keep you posted!!

[FireEMSPolice]

We use E911 made by Rad Software (http://www.radsoftware.org/html/police_software.html). Its a worthless program.

[N. A. Corbier]

Oh, man. I looked at that stuff, and was like, "Wow, that crash course in Visual Basic 3.0 paid off!" That they charge $400 dollars for a souped up Visual Basic for Applications or Visual Basic program amuses me greatly.

[FireEMSPolice]

Oh, man. I looked at that stuff, and was like, "Wow, that crash course in Visual Basic 3.0 paid off!" That they charge $400 dollars for a souped up Visual Basic for Applications or Visual Basic program amuses me greatly. What are you talking bout?

Davis002, you have a PM!

[Arff312]

I just got my company to tUpgrade to E911 Pro. We used to and still do have paper logs (until the E911 Pro is phased in completly). I figured that atleast 911 pro would be better then nothing. I mean i was watching disptach one nght flip through papers to get info. So it is a start to have E911 Pro. We still have some people who dont like it. But there is only one or two of them now of our 70 person staff. It is not as good as 10 000 dollar systems but for what you pay for and our needs it works fine.

[FireEMSPolice]

I just got my company to tUpgrade to E911 Pro. We used to and still do have paper logs (until the E911 Pro is phased in completly). I figured that atleast 911 pro would be better then nothing. I mean i was watching disptach one nght flip through papers to get info. So it is a start to have E911 Pro. We still have some people who dont like it. But there is only one or two of them now of our 70 person staff. It is not as good as 10 000 dollar systems but for what you pay for and our needs it works fine.
Let me know how it works. Ours sucks. Always crashes.

[Bill Warnock]

To round out your search, try PPM2000. Look into your multiple applications and your architecture and see if they have what you need now and what you will need in the future.
Enjoy the day,
Bill

[N. A. Corbier]

What are you talking bout?

Davis002, you have a PM!
E991 from Rad Systems is a Visual Basic application, I've ran the demo program and actually laughed at it. No wonder it crashes so often, it looks like it was written in the 1990s.

SecTrainer, if you get a chance, take a look at it. Is it VB or Visual Basic for Applications? My bet is VB 3-5.

[SecTrainer]

E991 from Rad Systems is a Visual Basic application, I've ran the demo program and actually laughed at it. No wonder it crashes so often, it looks like it was written in the 1990s.

SecTrainer, if you get a chance, take a look at it. Is it VB or Visual Basic for Applications? My bet is VB 3-5.

This was an old DOS program written in BASIC called 911Help, transported to Windows.

This version, which is their latest, is touted as being a "new platform". However, it installs MSVBVM50.DLL, the runtime files needed to run applications written in VB5, so I guess that answers the question pretty definitively.

[N. A. Corbier]

I didn't bother looking at the DLL, and really didn't want to install it on this PC. Thanks. There still is life for VB5 applications, I guess.

[FireEMSPolice]

This was an old DOS program written in BASIC called 911Help, transported to Windows.

This version, which is their latest, is touted as being a "new platform". However, it installs MSVBVM50.DLL, the runtime files needed to run applications written in VB5, so I guess that answers the question pretty definitively. We use E911Help and E911Stat. My Security Manager wants me to find out more info on the update. Can anyone shed some light?

[SecTrainer]

I didn't bother looking at the DLL, and really didn't want to install it on this PC. Thanks. There still is life for VB5 applications, I guess.

Well, if you want to call this "life"... :p

[Professional Rent-a-Cop]

At my inhouse job, we use PPM 2000 to monitor systems controls, boilers/chillers/pumps, and also track our residents through the trace system. We can electronically open doors and buzz people in through it, and all of the building access cards issued to staff and residents is set up in PPM 2000. It's a wonderful program and we love it. Our entire entraguard access control system is wired to PPM 2000, and this is our main computer unit. Our report writing, however, is about thirty years late on technology: we still use a type-fax writer that automatically prints via fax wiring to our office, management's office, general manager's house office, and the HOA Board President's home. It kinda makes it a little bit of a pain as all reports written are final; if you screw up a report, you have to also type-edit it in the next report entry. Also, you can easily type a non-professional report by accident. As in you are typing something about your shift, and miss typing the " f " key. I don't think I have to put in here what that spells......... :D

[N. A. Corbier]

We use E911Help and E911Stat. My Security Manager wants me to find out more info on the update. Can anyone shed some light?

Imagine E911Help, in a window, with cheezy graphics. Same thing, just happens to run in Windows 3.11 and up now.

You can go to RAD Software and download a demo of the "new" E911Pro system. Honestly, though, it is not worth the $500 dollars they want.

You can make the same thing with your copy of Microsoft Access, without VB Script even, and a copy of "Understanding Microsoft Access 2000."

While I personally loathe Access for database functions (its slow and the more you plug in, the slower it gets), even Access is better than some Visual Basic program from 1995.