Tasers

[bigdog]

Do you feel that security officers should be able to carry and use tasers? Also how much training do u feel a security officer should have before carrying a taser?

[N. A. Corbier]

Since security officers are private citizens, and tasers are authorized for civilian carry in 43 states, I'd have to say "yes," and "the Taser Citizen Defense System Course."

Citizens are already allowed to carry them. Security officers are no different than other civilians, so prohibiting them from carrying them is stupid.


For states that prohibit tasers in the hands of civilians, the law should be changed for general civilian carry before security officers are issued tasers, unless they have some police powers that cover them from liability in its use, as no other private citizen is granted the priveliage of their use - this would be a liability point. In that case, they should be issued by the federal/state/local agency issuing the priveliage, and should be trained by that agency to LE standards for Taser use, and required to abide by state LE Taser Use of Force policy.

[Echos13]

I would like very much to have one of these units. I use to carry a standard stun gun that you have to touch the subject with but I stopped just because of that very reason. Why they call these stun devices "gun" is way off. These Tasers and Stingers are nice, but e-gads! They cost more than most firearms. :eek: If I could afford the unit and the training I would do it. Can't seem to convence the boss. Not because of the controversy that has been developing about them. It's the cost.

[Arff312]

I feel that officers shoudl be able to carry these. But as i do with all other weapons we carry i feel we should have to get the same training as the police do in the weapon. I feel this way for OC, Baton, Taser, Weaponless defense and even Powers to arrest. I feel that all these classed should be a lot longer. In califonia you can carry the same equipment as a cop with only 80 hrs training. That is rediculous and dangerous i feel. Like it or not weather you think so we are a form of law enforcement. We should have similar training. Now i usderstand that alot of Guards are just checking ids or something like that for a factory etcc. But for officers working patrol functions such as Malls, Apartments, Shopping Centers etc... there should be more law enforcement based training. Thats just my .02 cents.

[1stWatch]

I feel the training should be congruous with the other training developed for use of force, including empty hands, baton, oc spray, handgun, shotgun, and rifle. The number of hours for the course is only as important as the practicality of the curriculum. The training should make the weapon integrate with the rest of a practical use of force system. I feel people should not be able to carry the weapon until they can demonstrate proficiency and sound judgement in a practical training environment. Then, it should be carried and accounted for at all times while in uniform.

[N. A. Corbier]

Accountability is an important factor in any agency taser deployment. The only concern is that the taser's accountability systems are built into the law enforcement only models, the M26 and X26-E. The civilian models have no network connectivity, as the brochures and questions I've asked of Taser International, have lead me to believe.

For those agencies that don't want the X26C Citizen Defense System, the M18L is a viable alternative. However, I have no idea if you can buy the ethernet data retrieveal cord for your Taser M18, and if there is an actual accountability mode built into the M18.

Taser, with its media image problem, is keep the police versions of its systems closely guarded indeed - there is no way to get your hands on a unit wiht accountability systems. Taser's belief seems to be that only sworn law enforcement agencies require to keep track of taser usage - security companies and private military contractors do not.

[Mr. Security]

Do you feel that security officers should be able to carry and use tasers? Also how much training do u feel a security officer should have before carrying a taser?

Beats deadly force. Personally, I have no desire to carry one. For those who do, remember that these devices are not non-lethal. They are classified as less-than-lethal because there are documented cases were death has occurred. If you use it for anything short of a life-threatening situation and death occurs, could you live with that? I couldn't. :(

[N. A. Corbier]

Beats deadly force. Personally, I have no desire to carry one. For those who do, remember that these devices are not non-lethal. They are classified as less-than-lethal because there are documented cases were death has occurred. If you use it for anything short of a life-threatening situation and death occurs, could you live with that? I couldn't. :(

Actually, Taser International reported that DoD/USMC classifies the weapon as NON-LETHAL. Remember, you use OC, and OC has been linked to deaths, as well. Nothing is completely non-lethal, including your voice. You might yell at a suspect for compliance, and they die of a heart attack due to the excitement.

[Mr. Security]

Actually, Taser International reported that DoD/USMC classifies the weapon as NON-LETHAL. Remember, you use OC, and OC has been linked to deaths, as well. Nothing is completely non-lethal, including your voice. You might yell at a suspect for compliance, and they die of a heart attack due to the excitement.

Is that classification universal or is it just limited to DoD/USMC? I agree with you on the OC though. As far as your analogy of someone having a heart attack because they are yelled at, which is more likely to cause death? OC and tasers or verbal commands?

[N. A. Corbier]

Is that classification universal or is it just limited to DoD/USMC? I agree with you on the OC though. As far as your analogy of someone having a heart attack because they are yelled at, which is more likely to cause death? OC and tasers or verbal commands?

Taser's advertising them as non-lethal. 90% of the weapons we eventually get are from our military. Bean bag rounds, gas rounds, pepperball, tasers... Usually made for the USMC's Non-Lethal program first, then LE gets them through the LE/DOD Technology sharing program.

After all, why else do you think police departments were buying APCs for a dollar, and 20 M16s for another dollar. :)

There was a wonderful article that serves as a cautionary tale about using military tactics and weapons systems to achieve domestic peacekeeping objectives - if you could sit though the anti-LE bias. It explains the JT6 trickle-down technology concept alot.

[Charger]

Ok, being a certified OC instructor, I feel a need to jump in here before this gets ugly... ;)

The ONLY deaths linked to OC, were from people who asphyxiated (sp?) themselves after being sprayed... the OC itself was NOT the cause of the death... OC is NON lethal, and there is NO proof otherwise. If you have questions, or a rebuttal, I can direct you to a PD Training Sergeant who is considered a national expert witness on the subject ;)

//Rant off. ;)

[N. A. Corbier]

Ok, being a certified OC instructor, I feel a need to jump in here before this gets ugly... ;)

The ONLY deaths linked to OC, were from people who asphyxiated (sp?) themselves after being sprayed... the OC itself was NOT the cause of the death... OC is NON lethal, and there is NO proof otherwise. If you have questions, or a rebuttal, I can direct you to a PD Training Sergeant who is considered a national expert witness on the subject ;)

//Rant off. ;)

Of course. And every death from OC and Taser are excited delerium related. See the correlation? They're both non-lethal, as in "proability of device causing death is so low as to be same as background noise." The one death they "linked" to a taser, the official Cook County report reversed it.

This happens with every new device we get.

[Charger]

Exactly... Again, not the device's fault that people panic... Just wanted to clarify that... ;)

[Mr. Security]

Ok, being a certified OC instructor, I feel a need to jump in here before this gets ugly... ;)

The ONLY deaths linked to OC, were from people who asphyxiated (sp?) themselves after being sprayed... the OC itself was NOT the cause of the death... OC is NON lethal, and there is NO proof otherwise. If you have questions, or a rebuttal, I can direct you to a PD Training Sergeant who is considered a national expert witness on the subject ;)

//Rant off. ;)

When it comes to "expert witnesses" the prosecution usually has theirs and the defense has theirs. Typically, they contradict each other leaving the jury to draw their own conclusions. I would rather be directed to a credible scientific study that documents that OC is always non-lethal. If you spray someone with severe asthma the outcome may very well be lethal. Admittedly, the OC may not be the direct cause of death when dealing with a pre-existing condition, but it certainly is an aggravating factor. Much like the old adage that says: "Guns don't kill people; people kill people." This is a 'half-truth,' because guns make it EASIER to kill people. I am not entitled to expect that my viewpoint on this matter is the only acceptable one. Nevertheless, this is how I feel personally about it. :)

[Mr. Security]

Of course. And every death from OC and Taser are excited delerium related. See the correlation? They're both non-lethal, as in "proability of device causing death is so low as to be same as background noise." The one death they "linked" to a taser, the official Cook County report reversed it.

This happens with every new device we get.

I'm confused. Earlier you stated that: "Remember, you use OC, and OC has been linked to deaths, as well." Surely you didn't mean linked to death in the same way as background noise, did you? :confused:

[N. A. Corbier]

I'm confused. Earlier you stated that: "Remember, you use OC, and OC has been linked to deaths, as well." Surely you didn't mean linked to death in the same way as background noise, did you? :confused:

Actually, I did. That's the problem with less-lethals/non-lethals. Since we've introduced anything other than the baton - there's been opposition to it. Claims of death. Linking of death by AMEs looking to make a name for themselves. Claims unsubstantiated.

I'll draw a wonderful analogy. According to the Associated Press, the Barrett M84 .50 BMG rifle is capable of defeating tank armor up to one mile away. It is capable of knocking a rail tank car off its tracks. It can down a commercial aircraft by one hit anywhere on the aircraft.

Barrett disagrees, and so do the people they asked about it, including DHS, DOD, the manufacturer of rail cars, and Boeing.

But, you will see this quote pop up. Even if OC and Tasers are ruled safe, you will still see quotes from the Cook County ME's office, or some California Activist group, stating that they're deadly.

Just because you can link the two, dosen't mean its from a credible source.

[Mr. Security]

[QUOTE=N. A. Corbier] Even if OC and Tasers are ruled safe, you will still see quotes from the Cook County ME's office, or some California Activist group, stating that they're deadly.QUOTE]

I agree that "deadly" is not a true statement. Can tasers cause death in some instances? Likely. There is no such thing as a 'safe' weapon. Otherwise it wouldn't be called a weapon. Do tasers have a place in LE and security? Yes. My objection is the circumstances under which some try to justify its use. In my opinion, tasers should be used as a last resort before deadly force is employed. OC before a baton and so forth.

[Bill Warnock]

As in all things, reasonableness. The prudent man theory is still alive and should be practiced. As N. A. Corbier points connecting the dots together does not always provide the correct solution if one of the dots is faulty.
Force after all other avenues have been exhausted. If the person on whom minimum force is severly injured due to a human weakness on his part, then the one who applied the force should be held blameless. Juries may decide differently.
Enjoy the day,
Bill

[Mr. Security]

If the person on whom minimum force is severly injured due to a human weakness on his part, then the one who applied the force should be held blameless.
Bill

That's the main point: Minimum force is ALL that should be used. In the hands of the wrong person, OC/Baton/Tasers can be and have been abused. Security Officers (and LE) who qualify to use such weapons need to be thoroughly screened to avoid such abuses. That's the hard part. :(

[N. A. Corbier]

That's the main point: Minimum force is ALL that should be used. In the hands of the wrong person, OC/Baton/Tasers can be and have been abused. Security Officers (and LE) who qualify to use such weapons need to be thoroughly screened to avoid such abuses. That's the hard part. :(

A LASD Defensive Tactics instructor reminded me of something. "Minimum Force" is dead. It is now "reasonable force," as in, what is the reasonable amount of force that a police officer (or security officer) may use to respond to the offender, with the knowledge that the officer had at the time of action?

The days of moving up and down the ladder in incremental steps aren't only gone, they never were. This was something that lawyers tried to impose, so that they could win personal injury cases. Money > Spirit of Law.

Batons are extremely dangerous weapons, capable of breaking bones and causing death. Its basically hitting someone with a metal pipe. This is why, even if your trained, some states consider using the baton as a deadly weapon - it has that ability. So, unless your using reasonable force to stop an attack that you consider deadly, your may be using "lethal force" against that attacker.

I would put tasers below baton, but my training put baton directly below firearm, and in most cases, you were to draw firearm instead of ASP. Why? Because the ASP was a deadly weapon in anyone's hands but a law enforcement officer - who was shielded from prosecution because any non-lethal force was excused to conclude an arrest, even breaking bones.

[Charger]

^ Bingo... Around here an ASP is considered one (minor) step below a sidearm... similar to a knife/edged weapon.... Sure, hit someone in the leg with it, it probably won't kill them... But you're gonna do some SERIOUS damage if you hit them on the head.... Because of this, tasers have become all the rage around here lately.. ;)

I've seen an ASP put a 5 inch hole through a car door... I wouldn't want to get hit with that.... lol

Oh, and in response to Mr. Security's earlier post... True, expert witnesses can be found on both sides... But the Sgt. I mentioned is only considered to be one BECAUSE he took part in a scientific study on OC.... He himself getting sprayed almost 400 times as part of it.... crazy guy... but he knows his stuff.... lol

[N. A. Corbier]

I knew a guy who put his ASP through the bark of a tree, left a one inch dent in the tree. Why? It wouldn't close, was locked up. I taught him how to close it without destroying massive amounts of property in the process, by tapping on the joints of the stick. :)

I've come close to leaving my ASP (With my prints on it) in some idiot's shattered windshield. ASPs are great tools for destroying things.

[bigdog]

the state of florida now says if your are trained by a certified instructor with a baton it is a non- deadly force option according to every instructor a nd cop ive spoke with.

[S/O245]

I think we should be allowed to carry a taser and yes we should get training. I seen someone say we should get the same training as Sworn LEOs do. Well that would be nice but here basic training academy can be about 24 to 25 weeks. Also if i get the same training as sworn leos they better raise my pay from 7.50 an hr lol. But i agree S/O's do need more training. And with homeland security we need training to help us spot things etc. But im not so sure if we should get the same training sworn officers get.

As far as the taser killing someone and can i live with it. Well i for sure dont want to kill anyone and i hope that never happens. But you know what people determine the outcome not the officer. If they make a threat and refuse to act in a proper manner they got them self in that incident. Not you. Also if you look at alot of people who have died from taser look at how many drugs they got in his/her system.

Classic example a suspect died in cincinnati. The Officers used the baton for pain strikes and also i think did not even use the full end of the baton they hit him with handles and stuff. The Suspect in a security tape tried to grab a officers gun. Ok they cuffed him then he dies. He was very over weight and you know the heart prolly has to work harder in over weight people. When you move fast or fight we all know our heart rate gets faster. He also had 3 different drugs in his system each of them ups your heart rate. Cincinnati Police did not kill him. He killed him self. The Officers also told him to put his hands behind his back 36 times. 36 times he could have done it and what the outcome was probably would have not happend.

So the question could i live with it. Yes. Could you live with being killed in the line of duty and leave your family behind ? That suspect tried to grab a officers gun. This was not just a basic simple hand to hand fight. It was a possible life & death fight in which the suspect lost. But again i dont wan to hurt or kill anyone. But i also dont want to be hurt or kileld or see innocent citizens the same.

The simple thing for attackers is follow commands and none of this would have even happend. Dont attack people to harm or kill them etc.

Stay Safe All :)

[Mr. Security]

......That suspect tried to grab a officers gun.

Obviously when that happens, all bets are off. That's not the kind of situation I'm referring to. I'm talking about using a taser in a situation that does not warrant it. For example, the recent video released showing a burly police officer tasing unarmed grandma because she wouldn't comply with his commands to stand up and be arrested. That simply is not justifiable.

[Mr. Security]

^ Bingo... Around here an ASP is considered one (minor) step below a sidearm... similar to a knife/edged weapon.... Sure, hit someone in the leg with it, it probably won't kill them... But you're gonna do some SERIOUS damage if you hit them on the head.... Because of this, tasers have become all the rage around here lately.. ;)

I've seen an ASP put a 5 inch hole through a car door... I wouldn't want to get hit with that.... lol

Oh, and in response to Mr. Security's earlier post... True, expert witnesses can be found on both sides... But the Sgt. I mentioned is only considered to be one BECAUSE he took part in a scientific study on OC.... He himself getting sprayed almost 400 times as part of it.... crazy guy... but he knows his stuff.... lol

The more that I think about what you and N. A. Corbier have said about the injury a baton can cause, the more I believe you have a valid point. I can see the reasonableness of using a taser over a baton. :o

I still would appreciate a referral to the scientific study that you keep citing in your posts. It will be helpful to read it, consider who funded it, and see if OC is, as you assert - not responsible for ANY deaths. Remember, I believe OC is a vital tool for LE and security. I'm just not convinced that it has not caused death, rare though it may be. :(

[OccamsRazor]

ASPs are great tools for destroying things.

They also make great back-scratchers, passenger-side mirror adjusters (reaching across), door-knockers, and are a useful tool for poking up hung ceiling tiles during a search...These are the only things I've ever used one for, having carried the baton in one form or another for 10 years.

[N. A. Corbier]

Obviously when that happens, all bets are off. That's not the kind of situation I'm referring to. I'm talking about using a taser in a situation that does not warrant it. For example, the recent video released showing a burly police officer tasing unarmed grandma because she wouldn't comply with his commands to stand up and be arrested. That simply is not justifiable.

While it was bad PR, in most cases, officers who use tasers in an "improper" manner are following their department's use of force guidelines. Remember, the taser is touted as an instant knock-down weapon, with no side effects, and immediate "off-time."

As I said somewhere else: You are 6'6" and 270 pounds of 35 year old police officer. Your suspect is 68 years old, 5'1", weighs 110 pounds perhaps, and may have brittle bones.

Are you going to go hands on, and possibly break bones when she starts physically resisting? Are you going to OC her, which will last up to 45 minutes, if not longer, and have her screaming in the hallways, in lockup, etc? What if she has a respiratory condition? Use a PR-24 with control locks? Or, are you going to use a taser, which you yourself were hit with, which you know will remove any inclination of resistance from her, and will most likely not hurt her.

Taser told the police community that the things are safe. And they're using them as they're trained: To diffuse potential conflict with a devistating - but short lived - application of electric force.

[Charger]

I still would appreciate a referral to the scientific study that you keep citing in your posts. It will be helpful to read it, consider who funded it, and see if OC is, as you assert - not responsible for ANY deaths. Remember, I believe OC is a vital tool for LE and security. I'm just not convinced that it has not caused death, rare though it may be. :(

Fair enough! ;)

I'll see if I still have a link to it, and if not, I'll try to get a hold of him to find out where it went... Knowing him, he's probably gone & updated it to over 500 by now.... if not more....

If you're interested in talking to him directly, I can PM you his name & department info for your future reference as well.. ;)

EDIT:
Excerpt from a different study I just found:
http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Czarnecki/chemical_hazards_in_law_enforcement.htm
Psychologic effects are critical to law enforcement applications. Most subjects, when they do not have a strong goal to fight the effects of OC, tend to panic after exposure. The fear of blindness and suffocation can be overwhelming. Subjects might be unable to function or fight, and some might fall to the ground in a fetal position [13].

OC does not stop a determined assailant. Most police officers, who are exposed in training and especially if they have been well prepared for the effects of OC and given a task to achieve after the exposure, tend to perform well despite the discomfort caused by OC. It seems that having a strong goal is the critical factor that allows people to fight through the effects of OC. Officers deploying OC should be aware that criminals can resist OC. This agent does not replace firearms, impact weapons, defensive tactics, and other defense and control tools. It should not be used in a deadly force situation. Some people seem to be naturally immune to the effects of OC: The usual estimation is that OC is effective on 80% to 85% of the population [13].

OC also is used as a defense against bears and dogs. Trained dogs, when given a specific task before being sprayed, have been shown to withstand OC. Like humans, they can use a strong goal to overcome the effects of OC.

Most of the effects of OC last for less than 45 minutes, with an average duration of about 30 minutes. A mild conjunctivitis can persist for several hours. Rarely, a corneal abrasion has been observed after exposure to OC aerosols, but this effect resolved within 24 hours without treatment [15]. Studies found an incidence of corneal abrasion of up to 10% [18,19]. A study of 47 subjects, only found punctate epithelial erosions, without abrasion [20]. The exact cause of the corneal abrasion after OC exposure is unknown. Solvents, the pressure of the spray, or the rubbing of eyes after exposure, in addition to OC, have been suggested as possible causes.

OC has an established track record of safety. It is used widely by police agencies in the United States and other countries. No death has ever been proved to be caused by OC exposure [14,21,22]. In 1994, the International Association of Chiefs of Police published a report on in-custody death after OC exposure [22]. The report concluded that OC was not the cause of death in any of the cases. Deaths after OC exposure are usually the consequence of excited delirium, a condition that is characterized by extreme agitation, hyperthermia, rhabdomyolysis, renal failure, and hyperkalemia. The chronic use of excitant drugs, mostly cocaine, causes excited delirium.

And for the specific study I mentioned:

http://www.opt.pacificu.edu/ce/catalog/13541-SD/pepper.html

This was the best link I could find, although it just refers to the original study... seems the study itself isn't available online anymore, or has been moved...

[Mr. Security]

Fair enough! ;)
And for the specific study I mentioned:

http://www.opt.pacificu.edu/ce/catalog/13541-SD/pepper.html

This was the best link I could find, although it just refers to the original study... seems the study itself isn't available online anymore, or has been moved...

Thanks! Great information. The study did say that death occurred in rare cases when preexisting conditions were present. Of course, people can die from an allergy to peanut butter to. My concern is when officers employ any weapon simply because a subject fails to comply quickly. When an officer is not in any danger, I prefer the use of psychological persuasion similar to the kind when a person is threatening suicide by jumping off a building. Weapons should be used when necessary, not because it's quicker or easier to resolve a situation. :)

[Mr. Security]

....As I said somewhere else: You are 6'6" and 270 pounds of 35 year old police officer. Your suspect is 68 years old, 5'1", weighs 110 pounds perhaps, and may have brittle bones.

Are you going to go hands on, and possibly break bones when she starts physically resisting? Are you going to OC her, which will last up to 45 minutes, if not longer, and have her screaming in the hallways, in lockup, etc? What if she has a respiratory condition? Use a PR-24 with control locks? Or, are you going to use a taser, which you yourself were hit with, which you know will remove any inclination of resistance from her, and will most likely not hurt her.

I can appreciate your position. In your example, I would apply gentle but firm hands on compliance techniques first to determine the level of resistance I'm dealing with. If it became apparent that considerable force would be needed to make the arrest, then a taser might be the only humane option.

[Echos13]

the state of florida now says if your are trained by a certified instructor with a baton it is a non- deadly force option according to every instructor a nd cop ive spoke with.

BG: I have been reading over the general provisions and laws concening security occupations in Florida. I am curious as to where you attained this information in reference to impact weapons for security? As far as I know there is no actual statue in regards to the security industry in regards to regulating the use of impact weapons in Florida. Maybe I missed something?

[Tennsix]

I can appreciate your position. In your example, I would apply gentle but firm hands on compliance techniques first to determine the level of resistance I'm dealing with. If it became apparent that considerable force would be needed to make the arrest, then a taser might be the only humane option.
Gentle but firm? That will get you hurt. If you have to lay hands on someone they better know you mean business then off to jail they go.

[Tennsix]

I think we should be allowed to carry a taser and yes we should get training. I seen someone say we should get the same training as Sworn LEOs do. Well that would be nice but here basic training academy can be about 24 to 25 weeks. Also if i get the same training as sworn leos they better raise my pay from 7.50 an hr lol. But i agree S/O's do need more training. And with homeland security we need training to help us spot things etc. But im not so sure if we should get the same training sworn officers get.

As far as the taser killing someone and can i live with it. Well i for sure dont want to kill anyone and i hope that never happens. But you know what people determine the outcome not the officer. If they make a threat and refuse to act in a proper manner they got them self in that incident. Not you. Also if you look at alot of people who have died from taser look at how many drugs they got in his/her system.

Classic example a suspect died in cincinnati. The Officers used the baton for pain strikes and also i think did not even use the full end of the baton they hit him with handles and stuff. The Suspect in a security tape tried to grab a officers gun. Ok they cuffed him then he dies. He was very over weight and you know the heart prolly has to work harder in over weight people. When you move fast or fight we all know our heart rate gets faster. He also had 3 different drugs in his system each of them ups your heart rate. Cincinnati Police did not kill him. He killed him self. The Officers also told him to put his hands behind his back 36 times. 36 times he could have done it and what the outcome was probably would have not happend.

So the question could i live with it. Yes. Could you live with being killed in the line of duty and leave your family behind ? That suspect tried to grab a officers gun. This was not just a basic simple hand to hand fight. It was a possible life & death fight in which the suspect lost. But again i dont wan to hurt or kill anyone. But i also dont want to be hurt or kileld or see innocent citizens the same.

The simple thing for attackers is follow commands and none of this would have even happend. Dont attack people to harm or kill them etc.

Stay Safe All :)
1. That Taser did not kill that man. As you indicated, it was a mix of circumstances such as health, drug use, and electrical shock.

2. The officers' utilization of batons was not an attempt to inflict pain. The technique they employed is intended to cause a sensory overload in the nerve bundles which causes a temporary loss of motor control.

3. Tasers are not a subsitute for other weapons. The second a suspect goes for an officer's gun, it becomes a deadly force issue. In a deadly force situation, a Taser is not the weapon of choice.

[bigdog]

BG: I have been reading over the general provisions and laws concening security occupations in Florida. I am curious as to where you attained this information in reference to impact weapons for security? As far as I know there is no actual statue in regards to the security industry in regards to regulating the use of impact weapons in Florida. Maybe I missed something?

its not in statute. the courts , and police, hold us to the same use of force standards of police. thats two fdle and security baton instructors teach use of force with the baton. I GOT THAT INFO FROM AN OFFICER WITH THE FDLE.

[bigdog]

BG: I have been reading over the general provisions and laws concening security occupations in Florida. I am curious as to where you attained this information in reference to impact weapons for security? As far as I know there is no actual statue in regards to the security industry in regards to regulating the use of impact weapons in Florida. Maybe I missed something?

Also thats what our use of force says its non deadly we use the fdle use of force continuum

officer presence
vebal coomands
control (handcuffs,counter moves, takedowns)
oc spray/taser
baton
firearms

[mallpopo]

Baggy Pants, $7.00/hr Security Guards Do Not Need Tazers. I Feel A Lot Of Them Don't Need Firearms Or O.c. Either. You Are Just A Presence. Besides, You Take Away Off Duty Jobs From Police

[Mr. Security]

Gentle but firm? That will get you hurt. If you have to lay hands on someone they better know you mean business then off to jail they go.

In many cases, you're right. In the example I referred to: Grandma, 68 years old, 5' 1", 110 pounds, frail (example said possible brittle bones), I'll take my chances. :) Blanket use of force policies are not always the best choice. That's what using good judgement is all about.

[1stWatch]

Baggy Pants, $7.00/hr Security Guards Do Not Need Tazers. I Feel A Lot Of Them Don't Need Firearms Or O.c. Either. You Are Just A Presence. Besides, You Take Away Off Duty Jobs From Police

Now that is a statement straight from the fantasy world. Take away off duty jobs from police by having a defensive weapon? Does anyone see the relevance here?

[bigdog]

Baggy Pants, $7.00/hr Security Guards Do Not Need Tazers. I Feel A Lot Of Them Don't Need Firearms Or O.c. Either. You Are Just A Presence. Besides, You Take Away Off Duty Jobs From Police

sir in many states we ( security officers) ae not just a presence we are required to act or risk getting sued,plus what the hell just to let you know according to the department of labor in washington security is the most dangerous profession in the united states. Also what right do you have to tell us we shouldnt be able to carry any defensive weapons. ive been shot at, struck in the face with a beer bottle, and been threatened with a knife at work. you say thats not dangerous enough to carry a defensive weapon.Also all of the weapons i carry i am fully certified to carry. as most security officers are.

[N. A. Corbier]

Now that is a statement straight from the fantasy world. Take away off duty jobs from police by having a defensive weapon? Does anyone see the relevance here?

I see the relevance after reading all of mallpopo's posts. Try it sometime. Its best to just ignore him.

[Tennsix]

In many cases, you're right. In the example I referred to: Grandma, 68 years old, 5' 1", 110 pounds, frail (example said possible brittle bones), I'll take my chances. :) Blanket use of force policies are not always the best choice. That's what using good judgement is all about.
I see your point and agree.

[1stWatch]

I see the relevance after reading all of mallpopo's posts. Try it sometime. Its best to just ignore him.

Ah, point taken. Goober guard alert.

[Taser]

Do you feel that security officers should be able to carry and use tasers? Also how much training do u feel a security officer should have before carrying a taser?
I've taken the course and I carry a Taser with me on duty working security. The M18L.

[Lawson]

For a little while, with a different company, I carried an M26 Advanced Law Enforcement Taser. I had to sit through a 5-hour instructional/hands on class, pass all the tests LEOs pass and whatnot. I feel it was a good tool to have on the job. A lot of people thought it was a glock and would keep away or just not be dumbasses. It was a great takedown tool as well, back then I was 6'4 at 220lbs, and it dropped me like a fly in a fire. At some places, like where I was (Port Of Olympia Security Patrol) it was a good tool, at other places like where I am now (Professional setting, access control and whatnot), probably not such a good idea.

[N. A. Corbier]

I'm unsure if Wackenhut would deploy one for non-uniform corporate security, but I would hazard that the Taser would be instrumental in corporate security functions - especially force protection.

Remember, the corporate security officer is responsible for access control. While Law Enforcement uses the taser to control a suspect for arrest, a corporate security officer can use the Taser as an elevated threat neutralization weapon. (Gee, that sounds cool.) In other words: When the threat is beyond refusing to leave and is an active threat to the security and personal safety of the client's employees, the threat can be rapidly taken down with the Taser and kept under control till law enforcement arrives.

This is alot easier than having to manhandle, OC, or baton an offender who is intent on gaining access for the purposes of causing harm to those inside.

[Taser]

elevated threat neutralization weapon. (Gee, that sounds cool.)
Wow, I agree. I am going to tell everyone at work the new name for my Taser. :D

[HotelSecurity]

The Montreal Police announced yesterday that members of their Intervention Units would soon be issued Tasers. There is 1 Intervention unit per division. (4 in total). They have I believe 15 two manned cars per division. they act as the anti-riot squad & are used for regular crowd control. They work as back-up to the district stations. Up until now ONLY the SWAT team members in Montreal had Tasers. Us in Security are still weaponless :(

[bigshotceo]

Just buy a really big flashlight. That's what we do on the other side of the river.


The Montreal Police announced yesterday that members of their Intervention Units would soon be issued Tasers. There is 1 Intervention unit per division. (4 in total). They have I believe 15 two manned cars per division. they act as the anti-riot squad & are used for regular crowd control. They work as back-up to the district stations. Up until now ONLY the SWAT team members in Montreal had Tasers. Us in Security are still weaponless :(

[HotelSecurity]

Just buy a really big flashlight. That's what we do on the other side of the river.

They don't fit well under a suit :D (A lot of Hotel Security people here still work plainclothed).

[BadBoynMD]

In, my company every occurance with OC or a baton has to be documented on a use of force report. What alot of people fail to release is we, as security officers have to explain EVERYTHING we do. Even if it's a timeout in the bathroom, darn near have to report that. Initiating a foot pursuit, knucklehead gets hit by a car, first thing asked is "why were you chasing them". HOW you write a report will be the difference between being up the S creek without a paddle or smooth sailing with a cigar.

As for my opinion for security taser use, sure why not. What type of training? Atleast two days and at the conclusion..give an exam with scenarios. Here in my area we have to carry water based OC spray, as the alcohol base can ignite a subject when tasered.

[Arff312]

My current company does allow tasers. We are trained by the company free of cost to the employee. We have a number of tasers that can be issued and we are offered discounts if we buy our own. There are a number of cases that the taser has prevented further escalation of force ( dont nessecarrily have to tase the person the red dot workes well too. The training is a 4 hour class as set fourth by Taser by a certified instructor.

[N. A. Corbier]

Yeah, many states dictate that the manufacturer's course shall be the course that security personnel and law enforcement officers are trained in. Other states require training for law enforcement, but not for security personnel. In that case, Joe Sixpack and Sally Soccer Mom are able to buy the same equipment and carry them openly.

[sgtnewby]

This is some research one of our doc's has done on Tasers...Enjoy! :D

http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=129937&p=irol-newsArticle_Print&ID=959769&highlight=

http://www.taser.com/documents/Jeff_Ho_NTAR_letter.pdf

http://www.paloaltoonline.com/news/show_story.php?id=4780

http://today.reuters.com/news/articleinvesting.aspx?view=PR&symbol=TASR.O&storyID=141650+07-Feb-2007+PZM&type=qcna

Hope this helps some of you.