O.C. Review...

[Mall Director]

Well, I said I would do a write up, lets see how it goes. As many are you are already aware, I am a Def-Tec Instructor, and posted alot of good info, but do to our crash, it was lost sadly. We started to go into getting evaluations of different brands of sprays and types, and I said I would sit down and get it out again, and to add the latest tests.

My officer have to go through training in OC use and exposure. I have a couple who, for lack of better terminology, are "hard core", and dont mind to much getting exposed to a variety of sprays. I do however buy them lunch each time I subject them to a new component, LOL!

The Standard: Direct spray into facial area, tactical stance, short burst (2-4 seconds), and then task completion of apprehension.

The results: After exposure, I get feedback on the different sprays, and comparisons. How long did it take, how long for decon, physical notations, short term and long term effects, contents. Just about everything we want to know, but really can only find out from getting sprayed ourselves. I use the same two officers, as they can dictate acurately the differences.

Overview of Brands:

- Defensive Technologies, First Defense Brand "Pepper Spray" 5.5%:The 5.5 sprayed in a very large cone pattern. The center of the cone was the most concentrated. The effects are as listed: Burning, redness of skin, swolen eyes, nasal release, choking, disorientation When used, it took a couple seconds for the effects to take effect. The burn was heavy, there was an oil residue on the exposed site, strongest effects lasted 20-30 minutes. Cold water and air. The air was the major helper in decon. There was the stretching skin sensation that was light and lasted for a couple hours. Showering later on made the effects re-occur, and getting particles into eyes from the hair will happen. Next day: No results.

- Def-Tec, 1st Defense "Pepper Foam" 10%: Very concentrated stream. No cone spray, area contamination is none. Thick fluffy orange stream, it does desolve instantly on contact, and thow back is nearly impossible if used in moderation. Over saturation is not needed, as it lays it on thick. The effects are same as above, except the nasal passages can become swollen shut from the amount of irritant that travels up the nose. It seaps into closed lips, very heavy oil residue left on face. Minimal to none in "apple Blossum" odor after use. strongest effects last 45 minutes to 1 hour. Decon takes alot of water, and air. After decon, the stretch skin sensation remains for many hours. Showering later on revives original effects. Next day, stretch skin effect lasted. Redness lasted longest, as well as dry eye sensation. The officer had red eyes the rest of the day, and stated the burn in the eyes didnt want to stop, and bugged him the rest of the day.

- Def-Tec, 1st defense "X2, Pepper Spray": Same heat feel as 5.5%, but effects lasted almost 2 hours on heavy consistant burn. This stuff was described as "nasty". During decon, water was helpful, only when constantly in the water, and a few seconds after water was taken away, burn came right back to almost full effect. Officer stayed in water for almost an hour, and kept going back every 5 minutes for the next couple hours. Very heavy oil residue, like the foam. Shower time that evening was described as "re-exposure", and the stretch skin sensation lasted all day the next day. Dry eyes were noticable the next day as well. Spray was the same as 5.5 when pressed, so no differences in patterns.

[Mall Director]

Sabre Red was used next. Its a different brand, and manufactored by a different company.

5% "Spray": Stream pattern same as def-tech, but seemed to place more concentration in the center of cone, with more pressure in contents. It had the same pattern, but noticably oiler residue than Def-Tec. The effects are the same as Def-Tec, but shower time reconstituted stronger. Hair seemed to be most contaminated. Effects did however last almost 45 minutes after direct exposure. Water was sought out heavily. Air helped out alot. Stech skin effect lasted for a few hours afterwards. Effects took same 2-3 seconds before noticable, and contamination of officer and area was strong. Also, the "apple Blossum" odor was more predominant. It also had a deeper orange coloration.

[Mall Director]

FOX 2% "Spray":Effects took 2-4 seconds. At first it was workable in tasks, but after about 10 seconds, it started to really take effect. The effects lasted 15-20 minutes, and decon was quick, 5-10 minutes. Same spray pattern, not as heavy as Sabre Red, but somewhat comparable to Def-Tec. There was not any reported skin stretching effects. Shower time was pretty mellow. I did notice a strange odor along with the "apple Blossum", couldnt put my finger on it though.

FOX 2% "Foam": It had a nice stream, but the foaming took longer to disolve than Def-Tec. It had more of a cream color in the dye. The oil residue was heavy, but not as thick on the skin. Decon took the same as a 5.5 spray. Reconsitution was impressive though. When showered, it came almost right back. If in hair, it will spread again easily. Air is the biggest counter agent.

[Mall Director]

We only tested out the Def-Tec Mark 9 Unit, as these units are pretty costly to just use. They run about $50 a can, so going wild with different cans will take time. We used the Def-Tec MK-9 as it was needed for level 4 contamination;

MK9 "Fogger":WOW, what a item! If you ever had the chance to play around with MK 4 units, the MK9 is different. It has a kick when you press the button, so hold the handle firmly. It does "spray", heavily, everywhere, all over the place. It had a wide oval pattern, and layed it on thick. The MK 4 had an acutal round cone pattern, where the MK 9 had an "oblong" pattern. The fogger is a very high yeilding irratant. When opened up, it kicked off with very noticable pressure. Immediately, eyes started burning. Choking was the strongest effect. No real skin irritation, unless sprayed directly at person. Then it had the same effects as standard spray, except that it coated much better, and thicker, so air and water had a harder time penatrating. It does get into everything.

I will warn this however. In even just going out and releasing what was left in the can, 1/6 full, it had the same effects as when it first was used, which is area contamination. These units will contaminate everything, and i do mean everything. We used it on a blocked off service pad, and even in a room on the pad. You can smell the apple blossum on the other side of a mall easily. Ever know what spray smells like.. you can tell it was used even if you are on the other side of a building. Area direct effect contamination (wher eyes started burning and nose and throat burned) was well over 100 feet. You can still catch enough of the agent that it tickles your throat and kinda feels like dirt got it your eye. I also do not recommend placing a subject that has been "hosed" with a MK 9 in the back of a car, the effects are really strong. Decon how ever, was easy, no water, just air if not directly exposed. Directly exposed, it burns, and water is very helpfull.

[Mall Director]

Well, I can say it is really preferance to a major degree with most of the ones we have tried out. How long do you want the burn to go on? Thats the big question.

If you want it known to the subject that they have been exposed, Def-Tec 5.5%, 10% foam, and Sabre Red 5.5%, will let them know easily. And it will stick around for a while to keep reminding.

If you like being sadistic (LOL, just kidding), "X2" will take the longest to get over the effects.

The burn rate with almost all of these were the same. I will say that FOX however, needs more oil in their composition, as it dries out pretty quick.

"Foggers" are pretty useful in a very bad situation. I would never ever recomend a MK-9 "Fogger" indoors, as it will take a very long time, even a couple days to decontaminate. It is messy, and will make a mess of your multiple subjects that are exposed. The pressure from the MK-9 was interesting. You can almost take someones clothes off of them if you open it up too close, hence the 6 foot minimum rule.

[Mall Director]

Depending on your needs, a quick tip up on each, especially to first time users or purchasers:

"Sprays": They are great in concentrating formula on a subject. Beware of others standing nearby, as the cone area does increase with distance. There will be a liquid residue afterwards, so your hands will get contaminated. Drawbacks: You will get some form of contamination when dealing with a subject that has been exposed. Using around others is a concern as it does spread and tend to go all over places.

"Foams": Excellent indoors, if you dont want area contamination. Foams have gotten better with "throw back" possibilities. Its nearly impossible to throw back as it disolves very quickly on the skin. Foam does saturate heavily, so eyes closed and mouth closed wont stop it. It iwll run in one way or another. Drawbacks: It is not useful if you get a gust of wind outside, as the stream moves with the air.

"Foggers":Great to use when in a large "outdoor" fight situation. It has the streaming capapbility of standrad spray, but will also choke out every one. Including the agent controller. Drawbacks: Never use indoors, IMO. I cant imagine how long it will take to decontaminate a room or facility, as it will go into the duct work. Also, leave windows down on cruiser when transporting. Foggers will continue to let loose with the odor, that can be irritating to eyes and throat, after exposure, and to all around exposed subject.

[dla4122]

MK9 "Fogger":WOW, what a item! If you ever had the chance to play around with MK 4 units, the MK9 is different. It has a kick when you press the button, so hold the handle firmly. It does "spray", heavily, everywhere, all over the place. It had a wide oval pattern, and layed it on thick. The MK 4 had an acutal round cone pattern, where the MK 9 had an "oblong" pattern. The fogger is a very high yeilding irratant. When opened up, it kicked off with very noticable pressure. Immediately, eyes started burning. Choking was the strongest effect. No real skin irritation, unless sprayed directly at person. Then it had the same effects as standard spray, except that it coated much better, and thicker, so air and water had a harder time penatrating. It does get into everything.

YES, I love the MK-9, thats what we use at the prison, awsom stuff!!!!!!!

[Mall Director]

Ahh yes, I am sure you do enjoy it! LOL!

Now, I am sure you also more than likely have another funtoy in your arsenol of OC impliments, like the MK-42.

We havent had a chance to test out that one yet, but from the footage I have of it, I am not sure I want to be in the same county when it kicks off!

[N. A. Corbier]

Alas, we're unable to even carry MK 4 up here, with the gram restriction. I carried a MK 4 can in Florida, perferred it over the MK 3 can. I've carried Def Tec (Yellow CA forumlation, it sucks), MSI 10% (LE version), MSI OC Foam (kekekeke), Bodyguard LE 10% (Almost useless! The can is under so much pressure that the actuator button won't depress easily), Sabre Red 10%, and Sabre CS/OC 10%.

Oh, and I've hit people with the can of OC before. That's why I carried a MK 4 can, it made a good improvised impact weapon to get distance.

[Mall Director]

Thats funny you mention that you have implimented using the can itself as a protective device, as in training, that is one of the designs of the can, to with stand nominal impact to be used as such! LOL!

I agree with you that the MK-3 is not preferable. The burst ratio is like 3 good shots, then your done. I was impressed with the MK-4, as it is a bigger striking device as well as 10-12 good saturating bursts.

We are finally switching over to Body Guard LE, as it is the same exact thing as First Defense, same manufactorer, just half the cost, twice the amount.

This reminds me.. I found that Body Guard is an LE "formulation" as it is the same exact thing as First Defence, made by Defensive Laboratories. The difference between the two, is that BG holds nearly twice as much, and where FD average cost is $20 a can, BG is $9 a can. I had wondered why if it was the same thing, and BG had more chemical, then why is it half the price of FD as it holds more? It is marketing. Body Guard LE is made for bulk departmental purchases, and kind of a kudo's to PD for using Federal Laboratories products. After I found this out, I was on the phone to Def-Tec immediately.

Sadly, $500 was already dropped in our last bulk buy, so I couldnt return it and switch! Arrr, lesson learned!

[mh892]

Can you provide me information about an OC spray my friend came up with?

Printed information on container; Streetwise Security Products. 17% Streetwise. Red Hot Pepper Spray. Contents: Oleoresin Capsicum, Expires 12-2011.

It is about a 1.5 oz. container.

17% seems awful potent to me for security use. Not really sure what Florida considers maximum %.

Any information appreciated.

[Mall Director]

Will do. (EDIT: Went ahead and conducted some research)....

[Mall Director]

Can you provide me information about an OC spray my friend came up with?

Printed information on container; Streetwise Security Products. 17% Streetwise. Red Hot Pepper Spray. Contents: Oleoresin Capsicum, Expires 12-2011.

It is about a 1.5 oz. container.

17% seems awful potent to me for security use. Not really sure what Florida considers maximum %.

Any information appreciated.

So far, with what I have found.. The MSDS sheet on this product is hard to find, but I located it.

The reason it rates at 17%, is that it is not a OC (Oleoresin Capsicum) stand alone. The composition follows at 3% OC (Oleoresin Capsicum), and 3% CS (Orthoclorobenzalmalonitrile). The combination of these three ingrediants is what gives it a longer SHU, but the rating for it is still 2 Million SHU. Its more than an irritant, its also "Membrane Irritant" and causes swelling in the nasal passages for short durations. The residual effects of these chemicals will include increased amounts of sinus release. The heat effects are the same as standard OC sprays. Its the duration that is different. Because it has CS in its composition, it remains on the body long after exposure, and even with water and air decontamination. Other aspects to a combo spray like this, is that it stains clothing, and does not wash out with just water. You will need to wash in laundry, by itself, with soap a few times. The clothes will hold the irritant for a period of time, just as any other stain.

The purpose to combination sprays, such as this, is that CS by itself, takes 5-30 seconds to take effect, where OC can take only a couple seconds.

CS is not consumable, it that is of concern, and the product you requested, has an actual "First Aid" packet that comes with it, or should as described in the brochure.

Other side effects of CS exposure, are groin pains, arm pit pains, and unlike OC, CS will permanantly destroy contact lenses.

The projectant of "StreetWise Pepper Spray", is not disclosed. I am concerned about this.

The severe side effects of CS exposure are risk for respiratory compromise or asphyxiation, according to the Department of Justice.

I am not bashing CS or CN, as it is great for its uses, but CS and CN are also flammable. THey are not EDW (Electronically Deployed Weapon) safe.

IMO: I would stay away from it. Its a no-name brand, that has chemical solvent carrier compositions, and in court, will kill you, especially when operating in the security industry. The damage CS and CN can do to personal effects, such as clothing and contact lenses, can possibly be charged to you. Other problem I had with StreetWise, they do not provide a LOT Production sheet upon request. FOX, Sabre, Def-Tech, United Chemical all do, in order to provide court action against you as another safety step.

I will continue to follow up with some calls to this company again tomarrow!

[mh892]

Thank you for the info on Streetwise. Looks like it is a product for animal control only.

[Mall Director]

LOL, I am sure it works very well.. Its just something I wouldnt use in my department. I am not a big fan of any solvent compositioned spray that can cause me headache later.

I researched the laws for Florida, and from what I have found, Florida keeps the Federal Standard as their basis, meaning nothing above 5.5 Million SHU in Heat ratings. Though, almost all manufactors product under this limit, so you are safe to go!

[Mr. Security]

.................................
.........
My officer have to go through training in OC use and exposure. I have a couple who, for lack of better terminology, are "hard core", and dont mind to much getting exposed to a variety of sprays. I do however buy them lunch each time I subject them to a new component, LOL!........

Based on the long-lasting and painful effects that you have documented so well, I wouldn't do it if you bought me lunch and dinner for a whole week. Suckers!! :D :p

[Mall Director]

Based on the long-lasting and painful effects that you have documented so well, I wouldn't do it if you bought me lunch and dinner for a whole week. Suckers!! :D :p

I agree very much with you! I was exposed to the X2, and that cured me of ever wanting or putting myself in the situation of getting "hosed"!

I am amazed anyone would ever volenteer for it, but hey... It makes all kinds to make the world go around! LOL!

PS: Anyone have another product they want to know about.. Drop it here, and we will get an answer! Anyone want more info about "already reviewed" products, let me know as well!

[N. A. Corbier]

Yeah, I got one, and its cheap, too. Next order from Galls, pick up a can of their Galls spray. See if you can:

1) Figure out from MSDS and Lot Information who's making it
2) Does it work?
3) How different is it from whoever's making its normal formulation.

Actually, I got two more, actually...

1) Pepperball PAVA Spray
2) VEXOR, the insane non-OC OC.

Pepperball tells me that PAVA-II spray is legal in WI, and if its consistantly hot, I'd probably issue it.

Vexor is just weird, its synthetic OC like PAVA, but its 1% pure capscain in suspension.

[Mall Director]

Ooo, never heard of either... I will get this out to you ASAP!

[ff000525]

Yeah, I got one, and its cheap, too. Next order from Galls, pick up a can of their Galls spray. See if you can:

1) Figure out from MSDS and Lot Information who's making it
2) Does it work?
3) How different is it from whoever's making its normal formulation.

Actually, I got two more, actually...

1) Pepperball PAVA Spray
2) VEXOR, the insane non-OC OC.

Pepperball tells me that PAVA-II spray is legal in WI, and if its consistantly hot, I'd probably issue it.

Vexor is just weird, its synthetic OC like PAVA, but its 1% pure capscain in suspension.

I contacted Vexor and was able to recieve two samples of it, I'm going to have a little "test" session with it this weekend so I'll let you all know how it is. The prices are a lot higher than most sprays and it seems Vexor only comes in 1oz cans. They have a different type of safety feature (which is a must in WI per law), which would actually come in handy if picked up by a bad guy. I'm also going to be trying out my pepperfoam (Mace brand). I'll let you all know.

[N. A. Corbier]

I contacted Vexor and was able to recieve two samples of it, I'm going to have a little "test" session with it this weekend so I'll let you all know how it is. The prices are a lot higher than most sprays and it seems Vexor only comes in 1oz cans. They have a different type of safety feature (which is a must in WI per law), which would actually come in handy if picked up by a bad guy. I'm also going to be trying out my pepperfoam (Mace brand). I'll let you all know.

How'd... you... get samples? :) Did you have to buy them? I would be interested in getting samples of this product, with the B license in, Florida is moving quickly and we need an OC brand.

[Mall Director]

I have them picked up. We did a three day shipping on them off the net. Most of these dealers dont like to give out free samples. They like for payments, then they send free stuff sometimes when we send our reviews in.

I will be testing this weekend, as I have to wait for my "volenteer officer" to come back from vacation.

We did test "Top Cop" last weekend, by ASL Labatories. But I am still waiting for the MSDS on it.

[ff000525]

I have them picked up. We did a three day shipping on them off the net. Most of these dealers dont like to give out free samples. They like for payments, then they send free stuff sometimes when we send our reviews in.

I will be testing this weekend, as I have to wait for my "volenteer officer" to come back from vacation.

We did test "Top Cop" last weekend, by ASL Labatories. But I am still waiting for the MSDS on it.

When I contacted Vexor they told me as long as I worked for a verified security company they would send me a free sample. I really liked Vexor's safety feature, it may take someone a few seconds to figure it out if it falls into the wrong hands. I keep talking it up to the guys at work, but with a 25 dollar a can price (that's only for 1oz) I don't really think anyone will be willing to go in on an order with me. Oh well. More to come.

PS, Vexor sent me two free samples, the MSDS', a price list and a nifty "this is why you should buy me" video. We'll see on Friday if they have earned a new customer. The funny thing is, that all depends on how much pain they can put me in.

[N. A. Corbier]

When I contacted Vexor they told me as long as I worked for a verified security company they would send me a free sample. I really liked Vexor's safety feature, it may take someone a few seconds to figure it out if it falls into the wrong hands. I keep talking it up to the guys at work, but with a 25 dollar a can price (that's only for 1oz) I don't really think anyone will be willing to go in on an order with me. Oh well. More to come.

PS, Vexor sent me two free samples, the MSDS', a price list and a nifty "this is why you should buy me" video. We'll see on Friday if they have earned a new customer. The funny thing is, that all depends on how much pain they can put me in.

5,000,000 SHU's of pain. :)

I ordered a sample, since NAPSOA PSG has its licensing now. I have a frequent resident of the local bars who is crazy enough to take a hit of Vexor, we'll see how it works on a big bad ass biker type - the kind of people we'd spray when they're half drunk and out of control up here.

[N. A. Corbier]

So, I'm sitting here with a can of Vexor. Here's my review, and here's why I like it, and why I don't. Keep in mind I didn't even spray myself with it, it wasn't required. :(

The Zarc International Test and Evaluation Kit for Vexor contains, as ff stated, one can of Vexor, some informational materials, and a CD with a Flash video.

Vexor is a small can, about 1 ounce. It requires a special holster or an insert for regular OC holders. It has an integral safety, as described by others.

For my first test, I discharged it indoors at a target. No blowback was seen, and the cone hit the target at 6 feet away. However, within 30 seconds, the entire room was contaminated and I was coughing like mad.

So, how do I know the effects? The safety contaminates your index finger. :(

[ff000525]

So, I'm sitting here with a can of Vexor. Here's my review, and here's why I like it, and why I don't. Keep in mind I didn't even spray myself with it, it wasn't required. :(

The Zarc International Test and Evaluation Kit for Vexor contains, as ff stated, one can of Vexor, some informational materials, and a CD with a Flash video.

Vexor is a small can, about 1 ounce. It requires a special holster or an insert for regular OC holders. It has an integral safety, as described by others.

For my first test, I discharged it indoors at a target. No blowback was seen, and the cone hit the target at 6 feet away. However, within 30 seconds, the entire room was contaminated and I was coughing like mad.

So, how do I know the effects? The safety contaminates your index finger. :(

I have yet to be sprayed with this (gotta find the time). But I have felt the effects also. I let off a short spray the other night, reholstered the can (which fits fine in my UM MKIII holder), scratched my upper lip right beneath my nose and promptly started cussing. As NA stated, if one holds this safety in and sprays you're pretty much guarunteed to contaminate your finger. The small amout of spay that I passed on to my lip freakin hurt,
Almost immediate pain, 1-2 seconds
Pretty much felt like someone was driving 300 small needles into my lip for the first 5 minutes, for some reason the human reaction to pain on the lips (espically burning pain) is to lick it... then it felt like someone was driving a nail into the tip of my tounge.
The pain on my lip lasted for about 5 minutes and then slowly faded to a numb feeling over the next 5 minutes. The numbness lasted for almost exactly 45 minutes (I believe it was 47 or 48 minutes).
Getting a direct hit of this stuff in the face would probably hurt a lot, I'll let you know when that happens, but it may be a bit, we need to set up the training time.

[ff000525]

PS, I also started flushing my lips after the first five minutes which only helped when the water was contacting the affected spot, as soon as the water stopped, the pain started again. I doubt the flushing with cool water would speed up recovery time at all if given a full spray to the face.

[N. A. Corbier]

Did they give you the OC First Aid wipes? The worst part of it was that I contaminated the kitchen, the bathroom, and the living room, just by firing it off in the kitchen. Even with the bathroom and bedroom doors closed we were hacking for a good 20 minutes.

No way in hell I'm taking a hit with this stuff.

[ff000525]

Did they give you the OC First Aid wipes? The worst part of it was that I contaminated the kitchen, the bathroom, and the living room, just by firing it off in the kitchen. Even with the bathroom and bedroom doors closed we were hacking for a good 20 minutes.

No way in hell I'm taking a hit with this stuff.

Ok, you know the amount of respect you get in this forum and I parellel that attitude, but the KITCHEN!?! You were to excited huh? I know it comes in that cool box and everything, but even I decided against testing it out in my basement. Joking aside. I got the wipes, but I didn't have them with me. If that 45 minutes were the norm for this stuff I really really don't want to be on the recieving end, but I did tell a few people I'd take a hit with it. It may just be an arm hit now. A few years ago Gateway (the local 2yr college here) used the double barrel type of OC made by Vexor or Capstun during thier DAAT class, the guys I talked to about it said it was the worst thing that ever happened to them. A girl I talked to said she thought it was worse than giving birth, with no epideral or drugs! So if you (NA) read about some guy who spontaneously combusted because of this pepper spray it was me. Oh wait only KPD does that..... :eek:

[Mall Director]

Did they give you the OC First Aid wipes? The worst part of it was that I contaminated the kitchen, the bathroom, and the living room, just by firing it off in the kitchen. Even with the bathroom and bedroom doors closed we were hacking for a good 20 minutes.

No way in hell I'm taking a hit with this stuff.

A little FYI on the first aid wipes... Dont spend the money on them. Here is my quick tip of the day, before I go onto publishing the results from the last four agents we tested..

1) Johnson+Johnson's Baby Shampoo: It contains a very small amount of novacain that is a numbing agent (specifically used as tear free for babys). Mix a container of it, as if you were washing your hair, a couple drops per two quarts of water. Add Ice Cubes for extra pleasure (sounded wrong). Let it chill if you so desire. Decontamination time increases suggnificantly.

2) Milk: Milk has natural nutriants that counter oil residue. Taking for example, you eat spicy food, you use milk to help cool the burn. Milk works the same way when you wash your face with it.

Milk and the Shampoo run you only a few dollars, where items such as "Bio-Shield" and so on, run $20-50. On top of that, if your department goes throuhgh spray the way ours do, then it can get costly, and if you run out, you have to wait until the next shipment comes in, where as these items are just a dash to your local groccers! Enjoy, try it out, I know you will find it useful!

[Mall Director]

PepperBall Technologies PAVA II OC 5.5.% Spray Review:

- PAVA II is a single OC component. Unlike Def-Tec or Sabre, where they use 2-3 different Capsicum oils, PAVA uses only one. We went out and purchased a can of the 5.5% Spray, and tested it, as follows:

* Unlike Def-Tec, with multiple Capsicum oils, PAVA uses one oil only. It does however share the same projectant agent, Nitrogen. Good news. It has no solvents. I was impressed with this!

On Contact: The "subject" felt no instant effects, as OC usage is common. Almost 3-5 seconds later, the heat came on. Instant burning sensation took in, eyes started swelling shut, coughing, and skin redness appeared. Disorientation took on along with the heat. Very effective.

Decontamination: Reported that it became workable through in about 15 minutes. Decon went quick though. Where with other products, it took almost another 15 minutes before the intesne pain went away, PAVA took only 10 minutes with water.

Spray: Same consistant spray pattern as other brands, but there was no obvious oil residue on the skin that was heavy. The light didnt reflect the way it does on an oily surface, like that of other agents.

Its very effective, I cant say anything negative about it, but it is appearant that there is only one OC agent used, from texture of spray, and decontamination time and wear down. If you want something to get your common agressors attention, this will do. It doesnt have solvents, so you are safe in court. But in the event your subject is under the influence of a narcotic or alcohol, it may not be as effective, and wear out sooner.

[Mall Director]

Yeah, I got one, and its cheap, too. Next order from Galls, pick up a can of their Galls spray. See if you can:

1) Figure out from MSDS and Lot Information who's making it
2) Does it work?
3) How different is it from whoever's making its normal formulation.

Actually, I got two more, actually...

1) Pepperball PAVA Spray
2) VEXOR, the insane non-OC OC.

Pepperball tells me that PAVA-II spray is legal in WI, and if its consistantly hot, I'd probably issue it.

Vexor is just weird, its synthetic OC like PAVA, but its 1% pure capscain in suspension.

Well.. We got our can in last week, and tested it out right away. I must say one nice thing about this product.. Like Def-Tec and Sabre, this company has good policies with documentation and providing MSDS sheets, as well as other documents.. They back you in the court aspect.. So thats a super big plus with me!!

As for the product itself:
- Again, one capsicum oil. It has a synthetic blend as well to get the SHU up there in heat ratings. It also prevent evaporation.

- When we fired it, if you look closely, you can see its "microspin" technology work. It sprays pretty consistant with the amount and direction. It held up against the wind.

- One big problem, is that its pattern of spray is too direct. It lays on heavy, but its pattern is so narrow compared to other brands. It would be great for indoor, but then you might as well use foam. When you are in the heat of the mess, you do have to use a little more care with directing the spray. I know when we get into scuffles, just pulling and spraying at the subject can sometimes be a challenge.... Which leads to a final issue I have with this product.. How many safety features do we need??? The can we got has two seperate safety locks on it. That s a little excessive in my opinion. I dont want to try and figure out all the locks when trying to draw and spray.

- Effects: It has a considerable amount of heat to it. Effects took only a few seconds (3-4) and the heat came on strong. It caused immediate choking, caughing, swollen eyes, and redness to the skin.

- Decontamination: after the effects lasted strong for about 30 minutes, decontamination was pretty simple. Water had a nice effect to calming and soothing. 10 minutes later it was very bearable.

Overall, I like the advanced technology used by Vexor, but I think they went the wrong direction with OC. For one, the use of carbination or compressed gas means you have to shake your can regularly, like a foam. But the spray by Vexor needs a good shake before use. That combined with the safety locks, and then adding a super directional spray pattern makes this product very difficult to use. I know a person can learn to use it, but along with training, it needs to continue to be practiced on, and hopefully second nature will adapt to usage.

Like I said, I like the direciton and safety they are going with, but too much into deployment is a big problem. We rely on OC for quick use and reliablility, and the design of this system is a little too intense, especially when in intense situations.

[N. A. Corbier]

Ok, you know the amount of respect you get in this forum and I parellel that attitude, but the KITCHEN!?! You were to excited huh? I know it comes in that cool box and everything, but even I decided against testing it out in my basement. Joking aside. I got the wipes, but I didn't have them with me. If that 45 minutes were the norm for this stuff I really really don't want to be on the recieving end, but I did tell a few people I'd take a hit with it. It may just be an arm hit now. A few years ago Gateway (the local 2yr college here) used the double barrel type of OC made by Vexor or Capstun during thier DAAT class, the guys I talked to about it said it was the worst thing that ever happened to them. A girl I talked to said she thought it was worse than giving birth, with no epideral or drugs! So if you (NA) read about some guy who spontaneously combusted because of this pepper spray it was me. Oh wait only KPD does that..... :eek:

I was going to test it outside, but someone reminded me of our wonderful laws in Wisconsin which would make me a criminal for discharging it outdoors. So, it had to be somewhere in the house. Kitchen is easily ventable.

[ctbgpo]

Mall Director


Why did you test the 5.5 % cone and the 10 % foam. I am interested in going to the def tech and would appreciate you opinion on the subject in regards to cone or stream (thinking stream and foam) I work in a hospital setting. I am issued spray and foam at my full time job, but part-time it is up to me, but I must buy own. I enjoy the foam for inside the ed where i dont want to "gas out" the department, but cone for perimeter id

[ctbgpo]

rather have the stream. Just wondering your opinion. Also as I have to pay for it myself can you recommend a good website/catalog to purchase. Thank you any and all for your opinions. Stay safe.

[Mall Director]

rather have the stream. Just wondering your opinion. Also as I have to pay for it myself can you recommend a good website/catalog to purchase. Thank you any and all for your opinions. Stay safe.

I hope anything i can provide you will be of great help or any help to you!

As for Def-Tec, as much as I dont like standing up on a box and ranting about what I think is good, and trying to keep an open minded, non biased viewpoint.. I am partial to Def-Tec, but found other great aspects to the other spray companies.

As for your situation, I, personally, recommend the Foam. I forget which state you work in, but we all know some states seem to have a greater population of "sue happy" residents. I like to avoid lawsuits, while exercising what directives and laws I can to the fullest when called upon, and this goes for Chemical Defense Agents.

Foam, which is what my department uses, and now our corporation after my written and proven review, has been very successful. It is more concentrated not only in target area, but in "copious amounts". Some people wear make-up, glasses, contacts, facial hair, long hair and so on.. Foam is great for these areas, as it doesnt particalize during deployment, and completely saturates the subject and his/her conditions. I found one thing very interesting about foam, as compared to spray. Spray will send a funnel cloud out when used. Its particals are already in expanded form, and travel through the air in the same consistancy as from firing point to connecting point. Foam, on the other hand, is a strong hose like stream, and does not particalize from firing point to connecting point, until it comes into contact with surface material. One dime sized drop of foam expands to a half dollar size when it touches normal surfaces, but when it comes into contact with skin, it almost goes to dollar bill size. Fascinating stuff. So, it will coat your subject very nicely. (not to mention, does your subject do alot of yelling and screaming while attacking.. more than likely yes.. well a good amount of foam in the mouth tends to quiet them immediately. Noise polution gone!).

Here is what I like the most about Foam: Not only does it expand on contact, but take a situation and subject, who is not effected by OC (6% of the tested subjects by federal testing). You spray with standard or hot spray.. the subject does not stop. You now have to consider other alternatives.. With Foam, it has a second purpose.. Even if its OC composition does not effect the subject at all, like a spray, it has a blinding composition. It covers the subjects eyes when sprayed. So it may not burn the subject, but the foam makes a blanket over the eyes, which blinds them. The subject can now no longer see you to continue the attack.

My officer a few weeks ago had a drunken subject attack him. Due to the officer being on the phone with PD dispatch, and not being able to let them go in order to have the use of both hands to take down the subject when he attacked my officer, the use of OC was needed. The officer drew his Foam, and sprayed. Guess what? We had one of the 6% that the burn did not have an effect on immediately. It eventually "burned" him out, but before the effects came on, the only thing that hept the subject from finding the officer during the attack, was that the foam coated his eyes and blinded him. The subject spent a good amount of time trying to wipe away the foam off of his eyes, which delayed the attack from continuing. Being intoxicated, the subject was not immediately effected by the spray, but being blinded caused him to loose sight of the officer. While wiping away the nasty orange blanket from his eyes, the burn finally took effect, which them totally disabled him! This same officer also carries X2, for the out door use. He knew that if he used the super hot X2, it would have burned, but delay time due to intoxication would have caused him risk, as it would not have blinded him.

Its really up to you! I will also mention that the clean up is wonderful with Foam. You know where it is, you dont smell it as it doesnt float in the air for some time afterwards. I spooked our janatorial staff, as they were really worried about the OC the Officers were carrying. I took all of them into a small room, and hosed the floor. They jumped and freaked, then calmed down when they didnt smell anything. Then with water and baby shampoo, I scrubbed up the floor quickly, ran my fingers across the surface then touched my face and eyes.. No burn. It proved to them that they didnt have anything to worry about if an Officer used spray and it contacted the walls or floors, and they had to clean it up. I watched alot of people feel releived.

For hospitals and other indoor facilities, Foam is very ideal. No innocent people can wander through your mess, start sniffing, then ham up a scene by acting as though they are on fire and will "sue you for letting me walk through OC!".

Final note: Def-Tec and Sabre both take care of you through to the end, meaning court. They both provide a complete chemical composition and federal test results upon request to back your "safe product" usage in court. Def-Tec is also FDA approved, and made of 100% food grade material!

[Mall Director]

Ohhh, before I forget.. Def-Tec also carries a line of OC product, same composition as First Defense, but is called LE Body Armor. This product (MKIV and MKIII) has the same exact composition as First Defense, but packs twice as much product into the same sized can. It also runs half the price as First Defense.

I couldnt believe my eyes. How is it that the same comapny carries the same product, but with different labelling and that the can that carries more product can cost less???? I found out. Body Armor is not their brand name roduct, commonly sold in stores and catalogs. It was specifically designed for the LE community, as they go through more of it than self defense civilian counter parts. So Federal Labatories cut a break to the LE community, and further assisted them by making a product that doesnt run out as quickly and costs half the price. They dont advertise this, so its a special request item, but can be purchased.

I spent a few hundred dollars, at $20 a can, for foam on First Defense before I found out about Body Armor. Arrr, I kicked myself. Now I have cases of First Defense sitting in storage as back up, after going out and purchasing Body Armor... Ohh well, live and learn.. Ohh, and share with others so that they dont have to learn the same way!!

[ctbgpo]

Mall Director

I appreciate all of your help it was very helpful I definetly will be packin foam on my hip. I really only need a can for duty and a spare so four cans total (foam and stream for outside the hospital) will Def-Tec sell me just four cans of the L.E body guard, should I attempt to call them directly or just try looking on the net. Again any info you can provide would be appreciated. I also thank you for the above. Stay safe

[Mall Director]

Here is something I know you will appreciate, and SAVE ON!!

Yes, you can even purchase just 1 can! Here.. I want you to call these people..

http://www.kinsco.com/

I shop there regularly, and the Body Guard LE brand runs about $9.00 a can. Is that enough of a savings? They do ship! (I hope you get the lady on the phone, shes the only female working there, and she is very nice. And if you want, let her know Chris sent you! )

[ctbgpo]

Thank You Very Much !!!

I truly appreciate all of your help and expertise, I will be calling her in the am.
If I can ever help you out give me a shout.

Pete

[Mall Director]

Not a problem.. Been there, had to deal with it mself. I hope this all benefits you greatly, and as I find other great deals, or info, I am happy to share. Why sit by and watch others struggle with what I already have.. Lets simplify it all!

[SecureTN]

At my Mall, we aren't authorized to carry any defensive equipment, or wear vests... But I carry a can of Freeze +P... just for personal use, off duty.

[N. A. Corbier]

At my Mall, we aren't authorized to carry any defensive equipment, or wear vests... But I carry a can of Freeze +P... just for personal use, off duty.

Ok, let me get this straight. You carry a can of Freeze +P at work, for off duty use? That's a good way to get fired if you ever actually have to use it.

[Mall Director]

I havent heard of this product... What exactly are we talking about now??

EDIT: I just found this, so now I think I am going to check into this stuff.. Inconsistant results doesnt sound comfortable.. (RE: I wont test it, but want to look into it).

http://www.zarc.com/english/news/freezep2.html

[bigdog]

that article is talking about freeze+p thats pepper spray and cs gas mix.

[Mall Director]

Yeah, did you read the advisories on that one though.. I was kinda unsettled with the facts of inconsistancies.. Your thoughts?

[SecureTN]

Okay, sorry for any confusion, I do not carry it at work. I carry it off duty.

[N. A. Corbier]

I used to carry Freeze +P. Back in 1995, it was the "perferred brand" of Bigdog's company. Yeah... It was next to worthless for me.

[LessLethal1]

I am interested in a copy of the MSDS on STREETWISE. It is not the product we use, However, we do know of an agency using it and would like to pass that along to them. We use Sabre Products here, and have had alot of luck with that.

Any help with this matter would be greatly appreciated.

[Mall Director]

Let me see what I can do.. Can you PM your email, as I can attach it!

[LessLethal1]

I sent the e-mail in a PM. It acted a little funny, so I hope it went through.


Thanks again.

[Mall Director]

Yeah.. like three times.. LOL.. I wasnt sure if you were overly excited about an MSDS or you had email probs.. I was hoping the second of the two!

[LessLethal1]

The second is it. e-mail problems.

[Mall Director]

Well, I pruchased a subsription to the MSDS site a while ago, so I could get my hands on every known MSDS ever made.. Problem..

FireMaster 17% Streetwise "Pepper Spray", under its seller, Black Ridges Security Products, manufactoring by GNU Industries, out of Vancouver Canada, has no MSDS sheets. I emailed the corporation, and never got a response. I checked into the OSHA MSDS site, and the company exsists, but manufactor's automotive degreasing products, but has no listings for their products of pepper spray...

As I searched, I poked into Black Ridge Security Products.. THey have some real pleasant "disclaimers" at the bottom of their site, and on a "complaint page". As I researched heavier into it, i found this..

Black Ridge Security Products, was a major supplier of GNU Industries products, the manufactorer of STREETWISE. It is based out of Florida, but due to the sales of their products to an out of country destination, they do not have to comply with most government regulations of chemical products. To top it.. GNU Industries is tied up in several lawsuits. Even though they placed a disclaimer that their products are not 100% safe (which worries me), they are in all sorts of trouble with the BBC as they are bombarded with several hundreds of negative responses.

As for the product its self, I cant anyone to answer me about the product, including GNU Industries. There are no materials listings for its propellant, but from what they do list off, 17% OC, meaning their combination of OC, has 83% water and/or unknown chemicals, and 17% OC/Mace. From education, this amount of Oil in the formula, will require a heavy propellant to get it out and to the subject... I am drawing blanks on what solution they could be using to get such a heavy substance out of the can...

Streetwise does use an OC/Mace Combo, so its not 100% natural products.

My personal opinion.. Stay away from this product, especially if you are in the states.. it will get you in some trouble if that time comes.. A company facing several suits, having major issues with their suppliers (or visa versa), and selling out of country, but wont sell in country.. Makes me leary!!

[LessLethal1]

The Answer is, They are using Industrial Solvent to get the product out of the canister. I know the HPLC testing shows that this product is not what it claims to be as far as the OC goes. So, why does it burn? The answer again is the industrial solvents. We would never take a can of BRAKE CLEANER and spray it into someones eyes, yet some of the very products we use have the same chemicals in them.

Thanks for looking in to the MSDS sheet for me. I agree with the fact that STREETWISE OC SHOULD NOT BE USED. It is litigation waiting to happen.

[Mall Director]

I am glad you are smart about what you use! Maybe I am paranoid.. Maybe I am overly retentive.. Or maybe I am just plain crazy..

But in this day and world, I am worried about two things..

One, is myself and my Officers.. OC is a great tool, not 100% always effective, but something that can save our lives or from harm.

Two, we all live in a sue happy world, where we were not the ones asking to be attacked, but we forced into a situation where we have had to defend ourselves, then some joker wants to sue us because he was "tush hurt" over not getting their way, and wants to claim we used something that forever hurt them and the rest of their lives.. Shhhyaa, whatever, LOL!

You shoot someone who is in your living room at 3:55AM, with a black mask on and a crow bar. The guy sues you for his medical bills.

Or the jerk breaks his leg tripping over your coffee table, while helping himself to your new plasma TV, and sues you..

Its not fair, its not right, but its the world nowdays.. Lets protect ourselves every way possible.

[Bill Warnock]

I am glad you are smart about what you use! Maybe I am paranoid.. Maybe I am overly retentive.. Or maybe I am just plain crazy..

But in this day and world, I am worried about two things..

One, is myself and my Officers.. OC is a great tool, not 100% always effective, but something that can save our lives or from harm.

Two, we all live in a sue happy world, where we were not the ones asking to be attacked, but we forced into a situation where we have had to defend ourselves, then some joker wants to sue us because he was "tush hurt" over not getting their way, and wants to claim we used something that forever hurt them and the rest of their lives.. Shhhyaa, whatever, LOL!

You shoot someone who is in your living room at 3:55AM, with a black mask on and a crow bar. The guy sues you for his medical bills.

Or the jerk breaks his leg tripping over your coffee table, while helping himself to your new plasma TV, and sues you..

Its not fair, its not right, but its the world nowdays.. Lets protect ourselves every way possible.
I live by what was learned in the Sheriff's Academy, "I'd rather be tried by 12 than carried by six." You enter my home with the intent to harm and you will not leave there alive. I practice with each of my handguns and plan to use all the training taught, a string of three rounds, two center mass and one in the head. There might be a suit by the heirs but certainly not the decedent. I will request a shooting team visit my home and then ask the Commonwealth Attorney to present me to the grand jury. It will be either a "True Bill" or "No Bill."
We had a Virginia registered sex offender work at the end of our street. When our grandchildren visited and were playing in the front or back yard I was with them and so was my "noise." If he approached, there would be a verbal warning heard by the entire neighborhood. He he continued his line of march, I would employ deadly force, not in fear of my life but of my grandchildren's life or lives.
When his employer found out we, as the neighborhood, were less than enchanted with his presence, asked him to leave. It was said he moved to Alabama to live with relatives. Under the recently passed federal law, "The Adam Walsh Law" he will be required to re-register with 30 days of his arrival.
I do understand your concern that we live in a highly litigious society, but the "reasonably purdent man rule" still applies.
Enjoy the day,
Bill

[Mall Director]

Bill...

On a side note, which we wont go to far off topic (lol, hopefully) and get back to OC.. Have you noticed that even with the Walsh Law, most of the registered sex offenders will register once, and move at a later time, and not register. I asked about this when I spoke with some of our CBI reps (Colorado Bureau of Investigations), and there isnt enough support to keep the multitude of these type offenders registered. Is this common in your area?

[Bill Warnock]

Bill...

On a side note, which we wont go to far off topic (lol, hopefully) and get back to OC.. Have you noticed that even with the Walsh Law, most of the registered sex offenders will register once, and move at a later time, and not register. I asked about this when I spoke with some of our CBI reps (Colorado Bureau of Investigations), and there isnt enough support to keep the multitude of these type offenders registered. Is this common in your area?
Mall Director there is plenty of support at all levels of government in Virginia. If you are a convicted offender and move to this area you had best register with the local police within 90-days after you establish residence. Most states and jurisdiction share a lot of data. Virginia the registered have their photographs, vital statistics, date of registry and date of required re-registery, where convicted and how many offenses committed, where he lives and works and a map showing exactly where the offender lives.
Enjoy the day,
Bill

[Mall Director]

Well, I got the MSDS on this one, and checkied into it. I researched the compounds and chemical composition of this product. I was pretty much right in being leary of the product itself, as well as the manufactorer.

For one.. They list their product as "17%".. I dont see how, the MSDS lists it a "8-10%" OC compound. The complete composition of Streetwise:

8-10% Oleoresin Capsicum
.01% Nitrogen
9-10% Proplyene Glycol
25-27% I.P.A.
54-57% Inert, Deionized Water

After researching come of the chemicals on this, I found that items such as the glycol and IPA are used in "Working Hydrolic Presses", "As a base ingredient in aircraft deicing fluid and some automobile antifreezes", and "As the killing and preserving agent in pitfall traps, usually used to capture ground beetles".. I found this slightly disturbing.

The MSDS wasnt in OSHA format either. I want to scan this and post it, and let you determine the validity behind this.

[N. A. Corbier]

Proplyene Glycol is safe. Its personal lubricant. :)
Considering the amount of people who put that into their
mucus membranes, I think KY would be off the shelf by now
if it wasn't safe.

Keep in mind that this is what doctors use to lube your
nasal passage for an nasal canula, as well.

[Mall Director]

Yes, I seen that as well.. But really didnt want t touch that one with a ten foot pole..LOL... The I.P.A. however.. Hmm.. :)

[Mall Director]

Just wanted to do a heads up.. I had a request on a new brand of OC, CQB by ASL Labatories (AkA: Top Cop Pepperspray), and they are sending me a sample out to try, so as soon as I get it, we will see what happens.

[Dam Guard]

I saw Freeze +P mentioned a page or so back. The company I work for issues this product. So do many of but not all of the Police and Sheriffs departments here in Northeast Alabama. It is much superior to the product that we were issued prior to this. I don't recall the name of that stuff but it couldn't even slam my eyes shut. That Freeze plus P sure as heck slammed them shut though. It is a combo of cs and oc and is only a 1% solution of each but, everyone at our company that has been sprayed with it has been affected by it. Some more than others but so far everyone was distressed to some degree. Most who were sprayed with it were completely wiped out. I don't know that much about Freeze plus P as far as propellent or anything but it is manufactured by Aerko International who manufacture defense sprays for other companies and also other areosol products.

[Dam Guard]

I guess I should describe my own experience from being sprayed with the Freeze Plus P. I started feeling the heat in 3 to 5 seconds I guess, my eyes started to pour water rather quickly and I had to force my breathing for a little while. This is going to sound gross but I had snotcicles (sort of like ice cicles) pouring from my nose. I know this because I saw the video of me being sprayed. I would describe the burning sensation as feeling like someone poured a cup of gasoline on my face and then lit a match to it. Very unpleasant sensation. There were 5 of us sprayed that day and we were just about fighting for space in front of the fans. The sadistic instructors call it praying to the fan god because the fans are on the floor pointing upwards and everyone is kneeling in front of the fans and retching and gasping out, oh god! LOL! The recovery took about 30 or 40 minutes and I personally didn't have a secondary when I showered. But then, I am bald so....... nothing for it to wash out of. Also, we had the use of water hoses but it didn't seem to help that much to me. As soon as the water was taken away the burning started right back. I think it is pretty effective but I have no choice in what I carry on duty. We all carry it and we all had to be sprayed with it. One strange thing was that I thought it tasted yummy! :D

[N. A. Corbier]

The term is "drooling snot monster," and is what Freeze +P does to people. Between the CS and the OC, it just makes your life hell. I don't like Punch II or Punch III, but Freeze +P is hardcore.

So is Sabre OC/CS. :( Man I remember when I got backwashed with that. It was not cool. Not at all.

[Mall Director]

Any of the CS type components will cause the severe sinus release, even more so than OC. OC is more of an irritant, while CS is an inflammatory.

With the water aspect, I have to remind my people when they are exposed to it for the very first time, that being a water hog wont help. You litteraly have to let the stuff dry out, then the "warming" sensation goes away. I find that a cool draft of air is the best.

I am glad to see that you are pleased with the effects of your product!

[SecureTN]

I personally prefer Freeze +P, but it seems that it get's blasted (no pun intended) quite frequently.

[N. A. Corbier]

I think its because most folks dislike Punch, and equate Freeze with punch. You add that CS, and it makes it more miserable.

[Mall Director]

Yeah, to add to it all, we had to evaluate what spray to go with, and anything with a combo of CS, will stain your clothes. My Officers have White uniforms, and orange doesnt go too well with it all.. Now for the subject, they need more color! LOL!

[SecureTN]

That is one problem I'd have if I carried it on duty, we wear white shirts also.

[Dam Guard]

Never been hit with Punch II or III. A friend of mine who is a County Deputy
has been sprayed with Punch III and he said it was pretty hot but that it wasn't as good as Freeze +p. I didn't know Freeze +p stained like that. I am lucky in that I can choose between 2 uniform types. The one I use most often is a grey polo type shirt with the emblems patches sewn on in the Badge position,security printed across the back and black cargo pants. This one is very comfortable here in the deep south. Several city police depts. use the same one. The other is a little heavier and is all black. Button up shirt with same cargo pants. Its nice in the winter months but we can still use either one. Sorry for straying off topic. :o

The term is "drooling snot monster," ROFLMAO!! :D

[sever104]

are we allowed to use ??Sabre Red

[N. A. Corbier]

are we allowed to use ??Sabre Red
This guy's from Florida.

Yes, you're allowed to use Sabre Red, however, you should have a use of force policy in place which addresses when an employee may use OC.

[Mall Director]

Definately have a Use of Force plan, then also get certified for using.

Impliment a good evac plan, first aid plan, and court action plan for afterwards. Its good common sense and will save you from the beginning to end!

[Dam Guard]

Hey Mall Director, have you checked this one out?
http://www.selfdefenseproducts.com/pepper/DPS/index.htm

If you look down the page you will see some quicktime video links. I have watched them in the past but can't get them to play tonight for some reason.

[Professional Rent-a-Cop]

I carry a Def-Tec MK 4 10% foam, but mine has a UV ray effect; if the suspect tries to run, and manages to wash the foam off of his face, and then you hold a black light over him, it will make the foam glow in the dark, even if he got all of it off. It's pretty nifty, and has helped twice already (I only bought the stuff 3 months ago. I work in a tough area of town where gangbangers don't like to listen to simple instructions). :cool:

[L.P. niceguy]

I had to help a L.P.partner at safeway in cali because some dumb drunk grabbed a 12pck of beer and decided to walk out the store with it. I was just arriving at the store when i seen my partner walking slowly behind the guy in the parking lot. I jumped out my car as soon as my partner pointed at the subject and immediately encountered the subject who was a well built field working type latino in his 30's (very strong). He started swinging for the fences on us so I just busted out the FOX 5.3 s.h.u and gave the guy a 2 sec blast in the face. I personally didn't see the guy whince or complain about it he just kept fighting till I rained knees on his forhead and nose.

In another case we got in a fight with a youger juvenile who stole 2 40oz. beers and decided he would rather fight the go back inside. After a brief scuffle his friend comes from out of nowhere and started swinging on us hitting us well. I jumped back and this time Iwas carrying my STREETWISE 17% on me. Lets just say I turned the kid juvenile trying to help his friend from a red raggin gangbangger to an orange face sissy. He was yelling and screaming and even made it in the store where he was eventually tackled and detained. The idiot who tried to steal the beer got the spray also and needless to say he was over the fighting.
Please give me a good idea on the statistics of FOX 5.3. i seen such a big build up on it then when I used it it didn't seem to do the trick. I already read what you thought about streetwise so no info needed just wanted to give you a little first hand experience. :D

[Dam Guard]

Sometimes spray just doesn't work as well on certain individuals as it does others. It could be because like you said the Latino guy was a man in his 30's and not a juevy. I have never used Fox Labs but a couple of Police depts. around here use it and they are happy with it. If you are happy with the Streetwise then there is no reason to change. :)

[Dam Guard]

Also people who have been sprayed before will not react the same way someone being sprayed for the first time will. They know what to expect and know pretty much how it will effect them. It could be that your subject had been sprayed in the past.

[Mall Director]

I carry a Def-Tec MK 4 10% foam, but mine has a UV ray effect; if the suspect tries to run, and manages to wash the foam off of his face, and then you hold a black light over him, it will make the foam glow in the dark, even if he got all of it off. It's pretty nifty, and has helped twice already (I only bought the stuff 3 months ago. I work in a tough area of town where gangbangers don't like to listen to simple instructions). :cool:

Brown labelled can right? We use the same exact thing! Let me tell you.. It's better than Wringleys Gum... Lasts an extra long time.

One of my Officer's used it on an intoxicated adult male a couple weeks ago, andways, it took a couple moments to take effect, but when it did, as the guy cried, he demanded "I need immediate medical attention"! LOL, guy had been through this before... But the best part.. When talking with some of our County Sherrif's, by the time the guy went into the tank and lock up, the next day, he came to, felt his face and realized something bad happened to it.. Then to make it better, the subject went to go shower, and the inmates in his pod, started running away from him, as he started screaming and crying. It really freaked them out.. The guy kept hallering something about his "jewels" being on fire...

Gotta love re-constitution!

[publicsafetyred]

California DOJ conducted a large study a few years back and fount that %14 of people are not effected by OC in any significant way. I have been an OC instructor for a few years and I can say my experience is about %5 with little to no effect.

[Mall Director]

I had to help a L.P.partner at safeway in cali because some dumb drunk grabbed a 12pck of beer and decided to walk out the store with it. I was just arriving at the store when i seen my partner walking slowly behind the guy in the parking lot. I jumped out my car as soon as my partner pointed at the subject and immediately encountered the subject who was a well built field working type latino in his 30's (very strong). He started swinging for the fences on us so I just busted out the FOX 5.3 s.h.u and gave the guy a 2 sec blast in the face. I personally didn't see the guy whince or complain about it he just kept fighting till I rained knees on his forhead and nose.

In another case we got in a fight with a youger juvenile who stole 2 40oz. beers and decided he would rather fight the go back inside. After a brief scuffle his friend comes from out of nowhere and started swinging on us hitting us well. I jumped back and this time Iwas carrying my STREETWISE 17% on me. Lets just say I turned the kid juvenile trying to help his friend from a red raggin gangbangger to an orange face sissy. He was yelling and screaming and even made it in the store where he was eventually tackled and detained. The idiot who tried to steal the beer got the spray also and needless to say he was over the fighting.
Please give me a good idea on the statistics of FOX 5.3. i seen such a big build up on it then when I used it it didn't seem to do the trick. I already read what you thought about streetwise so no info needed just wanted to give you a little first hand experience. :D

The big misconception is that OC works better on youth over older subjects.. When it comes to OC, its a small gamble of success. Its individual composition of the subject, and conditions.

Subjects under the influence of Narcotics and Alcohol, the spray may or may not work, or may take a little longer to take effect.

Women who use alot of make-up have a better tolerance to the burn than others, as their faces are already subjected to continious chemical exposure.

Mechanics, Steel Workers, Refinery workers, Plant engineers, and so on.. people who work in dirty conditions where they are exposed to chemicals have a better burn tolerance than the average office worker. These chemicals desensatize a persons natural senses.

And then there are those that are just natrally more tollerant.

Thats why I highly encourage others to use an OC than has a blinding agent, as well as markers. If you cant burn them to submission, take away their most valuable resource.. Finding you!

Personal Preference: Foam. You can cover their eyes even with shades on. So if it doesnt work on the subject, he/she cant find you to hurt you!

Foam is messy, and initially it appears that it covers more than you expect. So dont freak and think that with all the expansion of the foam, and related results, that its not as effective. The foam was designed to expand from the size of a dime, when it touches skin, it expands out to a dollar bill size. Thats what it is supposed to do. Alot of criminals started thinking that they could wear sunglasses to keep from loosing their eye sight in a fight with law enforcement. Foam came out to defeat this. As it is sprayed on, it expands and gets into cracks of the face and contoured features. It will surround and expand behind the glasses. It also starts to disolve into a liquid solution once the foam has fully expanded, which causes running, then getting behind protective gear.

[Jackhole]

The Standard: Direct spray into facial area, tactical stance, short burst (2-4 seconds), and then task completion of apprehension.
TWO to FOUR SECONDS? That's a really long time. DefTec says 1-2 is sufficient, with respray as needed. I got hit with the Pepper 10 foam for 1 second and it was plenty. Another recruit got hit with 2 seconds and it was definitely overkill.

[N. A. Corbier]

I've heard everything from 1/2 second to four. It depends on the manufacturer.

[Mall Director]

Yes, 2-4 is quite a duration.. but when you are amped up in a situation, you are likely to miss, so this time gives you enough direction to gain control of your stream. Practice will help cut down on time usage.. but just for safeties sake! LOL..

I have some cool footage that this next week I will post. We had more fun with OC this evening!

[WISecurityGuy]

Mall Director, I know Im jumping into this thread a few months after you have posted, however, I was wondering if you could describe the equipment you use while testing your officers. Hose or sink, fans, towels, etc... from point of spray to the time your officers leave. Do you do it outdoors or indoors?

[N. A. Corbier]

Mall Director, I know Im jumping into this thread a few months after you have posted, however, I was wondering if you could describe the equipment you use while testing your officers. Hose or sink, fans, towels, etc... from point of spray to the time your officers leave. Do you do it outdoors or indoors?

He made a wonderful video. It was lulz. It involves being sprayed outdoors under a loading dock, the officer sprayed them must pick up a 165 pound rag doll, cuff it, stuff it in the back of their SUV, and then he gets to go have free lunch when the pain wears off...

Kris, you're on. :)

[Mall Director]

LOL, Sure thing Nathan.. its a go!

As for the equipment, here is my typical list of materials on site and ready:

1) Instructional board, outlining tasks set and conditions
2) Officer (trainee) with full duty belt and cuffs,
3) One can of 5.5 spray, One can of 10% foam, One 5.5 Fogger,
4) One small enclosed room, such as a service room (no one frequents)
5) One bottle of Johnsons+Johnsons Baby shampoo, w/ bucket of water,
6) One 165 lb. Dummy (homemade) with fully functioning wrists 9as Nathan pointed out as to why)
7) An eye wash station, which is "supposed" to be used for first aid, and we do use it, LOL!

As Nathan said, I give a block of instruction prior to "exposure" to the new officer. I also give tips on OC survival, so the officer has a chance of completing the tasks.

Once done with instruction, I take the officer to the small enclosed room, where they stand in the back and get ready for Fogger exposure. i stand near the door. The room has already been wrapped in plastic to contain and not soak the walls. I advise the officer to stay in as long as possible (and for competitive nature, I remind then of the longest time achieved by others). Once I spray the fogger, they stand there for as long as they can. I give a good few bursts, 3-4, and then back out, since I have eaten enough already, LOL. The room quickly fills up wih the orange cloud, and apple blossums bloom! The longest I have had an officer stay is 4 minutes, but he regreted it afterwards. Once they cant handle breathing the fog, they leave the room, and walk around in cool air.

I allow another half hour before going on to the big dog and pony show experience, "direct exposure". I give another block of instruction. Once completed, and the officer is ready, they take a "tactical stance" and nod their head when they are ready to be "hosed". I give a good T-shot, and then give them the execution order.

At this point, they have to make a 90 degree turn, walk over to the dummy (propped up) and give an arrest order twice. Now the dummy doesnt respond, so they must use two of the Defensive Strikes, and knock the dummy down. Once downed, the dummy has to be rolled over onto its stomach. The officer then places the dummy in restraints, picks the dummy up, and walks over to the patrol car. The officer must completely and successfully seeat the dummy in the containment part of the car, place the safety belts over the dummy and secure them fully. Once they do this, and shut the door, they can go to decontamination, which is their choice of either a hose, or the eye wash center. They can use as much water as they want, and there is a bucket of ice cold water with baby shampoo already mixed, so they can splash their face with it.

Once done, they go onto the written exam. They have a one hour holding period where they are not allowed to leave the scene, for their safety. and wallaa, the exam is scored, and they are certified for the year.

For the most part, it is done outdoors. It takes an average of an hour for both exposure periods to be completed. Towels are also available, as well as a fan and fresh running water. We have a first aid kit near by, as well as for most of the time a PD officer who is issued to us, but likes to watch, standing by. The fogger is the only indoor, as they need to understand the effects of the fog and how it travels. I also notify a local medical service of training days and times, just in case. Generally we end up with a bored ambulance on site, eating their lunch.

Safety, Safety, Safety!

Nathan: I have a wonderful new video I have to share with you.. I about fell over laughing with this one, and you absolutley have to see it!!!! I will email it to you!

[Charger]

I'd like a copy of that vid too, if you don't mind. ;)

One thing I am curious about, however, is that you mentioned that you give your written exam AFTER the spray session. Any particular reason? I was trained (and therefore do the same in my classes) to do the written first, and only allow those with passing grades to move on to the physical usage/spray training. (Granted, I have yet to have anyone fail the written, but you never know, it could happen!) :D

[Mall Director]

LOL, yeah, we were trained to give it afterwards.. as an extra skills test that PD and LEOs have to do, since the class was with them.. It was strange being in a room full of LEO and being the only Security..

The concept behind why "after", is that many times you make an arrest, have to use OC, then complete any documentation afterwards, such as arrest reports and so on.. So this simulates the same tasked environment, and the student, gets to work through the challenge of having to complete their duties after exposure, since the world doesnt stop due to our being exposed and in pain.

I can get you a copy as well! This seems to be getting popular, the requests for the vid.. LOL

[SecTrainer]

I've tried and failed, unfortunately, to find the OCP study done awhile back (by the NIJ, I think) that showed that stream and fog OCP dispersal patterns were statistically much less effective than the cone pattern. However, I do very clearly remember the exact stats from the actual in-field (after-action) reports:

Stream/fog = 72.5% takedown rate
Cone = 90% takedown rate

I also remember the reason for the difference - the cone pattern has a much faster and much stronger inhalation effect than stream, fog (and also foam).

...I'll keep looking. My library has literally thousands of pages of research reports such as this one and yes, I'm w-a-a-a-y behind in my filing. In fact, I don't remember if I printed this one or just read it online.

[Mall Director]

Cone does saturate more.. The effectiveness rate is the same, but its the contact area of contamination that differs..

Foam and Fogger are not the most ideal for saturation. Stream is great for crappy environmental conditions, such as winds, gusts, rain, snow.. and so on, as it maintains a consistant pattern of contact even when outside factors change. Where Foam and Fogger, unlike Stream and Cone, are effected by outside conditions. A good gust and fogger will blow back on you, and a strong wind will knock your stream off your target.

I think we probably have the same meaning in mind when it comes to OC differentiation.. LOL..

I always suggest and highly recommend researching your area of operation, and what is suitable for your needs.. All these types work very well, and are just as effective as the next, but its design is based more on the needs of the carrier.

Taking for example, and outdoor operation, such as exterior patrols and stops, Cone and stream are ideal. You dont have to as concerned with your surroundings when saturating your subject, but you may also become contaminated yourself.

Foam is the ideal indoor type. Especially if your operation places you in the midsts of bystandards. You want to effect the subject only, and do not want to contaminate the area, just the subject. Foam will do exactly that, but its con is that if you leave outside, and effect the same use, and a gust or wind is present, you wil have compenation to account for.

Fogger is ideal for outdoor use, or cell extraction use. In outdoor settings, you want to effect a large group of subjects quickly, such as rioters and fights. Con, wind effects it, and you may be exposed yourself.

I have had many PD and general interest ask what we use, and when I say Foam, at first the reaction is the same, that of a negative opion.. until they realize that if we need to spray a subject, that there are others around that we dont want to have effected by the OC use. Now, we also carry a second can of Cone spray for outdoor situations. But everyone agrees.. You visit a mall, the fellow next to you at the food table acts up and goes insane, the last thing your really want is to feel like your Kung pow chicken.. extra spicey, from your neighbor getting hosed! LOL!

[fatalflaw]

But everyone agrees.. You visit a mall, the fellow next to you at the food table acts up and goes insane, the last thing your really want is to feel like your Kung pow chicken.. extra spicey, from your neighbor getting hosed! LOL!

Chickety China da Chinese Chicken, have some OC and your face starts trippin *sings along* :D

[Mall Director]

LOL.. Thats pretty funny!!!

[Doc757]

Does it Expire?

I was issued a can of foam that doesnt contain a exp date on it, does this crap expire?

Been hit with the fogger, God dang it works. :mad:

and yes that shyt on my face is OC


http://www.hellzkitchenserver.com/forums/uploads/post-7-1158012657.jpg

[Mall Director]

OC, particularly foam, has a general expiration date of 4 years after manufactoring.

The expiration of OC, is not so much the validity of the products heat, but the seal on the container. Remember with foam, to shake it up every month at a minimum, and it does help the rubber seal to keep it turned upside down as often as possible. If you have never used the can, it will last even longer, as no contents have evacuated through the release valve, causing any blockage of the valve closing.

What brand, lot number do you have?

[Doc757]

OC, particularly foam, has a general expiration date of 4 years after manufactoring.

The expiration of OC, is not so much the validity of the products heat, but the seal on the container. Remember with foam, to shake it up every month at a minimum, and it does help the rubber seal to keep it turned upside down as often as possible. If you have never used the can, it will last even longer, as no contents have evacuated through the release valve, causing any blockage of the valve closing.

What brand, lot number do you have?


federal laboratories inc. mfg 2000 lot# pf10-022
misc numbers below that 3603 PF4

for the most part - this is it http://www.defense-technology.com/products.aspx?pid=5046
only, older, way older :rolleyes:

[Mall Director]

I am sorry I havent gotten back as quickly as I usually do.. I will get that for you asap!

[ValleyOne]

OK, I just sat down and read all ten pages of this OC stuff and well; for some wierd reason my throat is a little itchy and my eyes are watering... :cool:

Anyone ever try or evaluate this stuff? <nudging Mall Director>

Mace Industries Pepper Gel Defense Spray (http://www.chiefsupply.com/Law_Enforcement/Self-Defense_Sprays/Pepper_Spray/PEPPERGEL)

[ff000525]

of OC today in my DAAT class so I figured I'd share it here instead of starting a new thread. I was fortunate to take a 1-2 sec burst of a little known OC distributed by ETGI out of Milwaukee, WI. The link to the type of OC I was hit with is http://shotgunstream.etgi.us/asp/5.5oc.asp just for reference. Well, let me start off my description of this by saying that it was liquid HELL. I was sprayed at 11:45AM and it is now 8:23PM and my eyes are still swollen and my left ear still burns a little. Upon being sprayed by my partner, my eyes almost instantly swelled shut and the pain was enough that I forgot that I needed to verbalize while I was doing bag work. The effect on my breathing was minimal for the first few minutes, but I could feel a little tightness in my chest while I was attempting to apply handcuffs properly. It definetly took the fight out of me and if it wasn't required to throw elbows and knees and then handcuff to pass this course, I would've sat down and cried (not really, because that wouldn't have helped). The decon time for this OC was actually very, very long. The intense burning lasted over an hour, and it took just as long for me to be able to open my eyes fully. Many different brands of decon wipes had absolutely no effect, nor did Baby Shampoo. The only thing that helped a little bit was sitting in the snow and pressing snowballs against my face and eyelids, but this was just a temp help that numbed up the nerve endings and the pain came back as soon as the numbing wore off. One thing that helped a little was that I was one of the few students that insisted on flushing my eyes for a long period of time (20 minutes at least). Like I said before, it took me over a hour to be able to fully open my eyes, some of the students were still having problems 2 and 2 1/2 hours later. All in all, it was a pretty painful experience, but a good one at that. The OC brand we used was an effective mix that delivered a tight stream of OC that was painful almost on contact. The only thing I didn't appreciate was the long decon time, but I have never been sprayed with anything else so I guess I can't complain ( I have had a secondary exposure to FOX labs and a minimal direct exposure to Vexor though).

[Dam Guard]

Hmmmmm, I wonder if maybe you are allergic to the oc? I say this because it really shouldn't have kept bothering you for that length of time. After that many hours your eyes shouldn't have been still swollen. Did you rub them after you were sprayed? It sounds like you are issued a decent spray :D.
Now you know the difference between a direct hit in the face and just a little blow back :eek: :D . By the way, are you issued the 5.5% spray or the OC/CS spray? I ask because OC/CS was much more effective on me than just OC was.

[ff000525]

Hmmmmm, I wonder if maybe you are allergic to the oc? I say this because it really shouldn't have kept bothering you for that length of time. After that many hours your eyes shouldn't have been still swollen. Did you rub them after you were sprayed? It sounds like you are issued a decent spray :D.
Now you know the difference between a direct hit in the face and just a little blow back :eek: :D . By the way, are you issued the 5.5% spray or the OC/CS spray? I ask because OC/CS was much more effective on me than just OC was.

Actually, everyone in the class were still feeling the effects this morning when class started. I woke up with my ears burning and had a little relapse in the shower (wasn't too bad). My eyelids are still a little swollen over 30 hours later and 3 washings (with baby shampoo). Oh well. To answer the spray question, CS is not allowed in WI. So I carry either OC foam (by DefTec) or FOX at work in MK III size.

[Dam Guard]

Maybe it is just some really good spray! I remember the last time I was sprayed I had a little discomfort the next day but didn't experience what you are describing. But, different people are affected differently. I remember one particular guy that was sprayed the same day I was skin began to peel a little bit two days after he was sprayed. My forehead was a little sore the next day but that was about all. Now, the hour or so after we were sprayed? I think you named it correctly, liquid hell! LOL! We were sprayed with a CS/OC product called Freeze Plus P. As N.A. Corbier says, it turns you into a drooling snot monster! LOL :D

[ValleyOne]

OK, I just sat down and read all ten pages of this OC stuff and well; for some wierd reason my throat is a little itchy and my eyes are watering... :cool:

Anyone ever try or evaluate this stuff? <nudging Mall Director>

Mace Industries Pepper Gel Defense Spray (http://www.chiefsupply.com/Law_Enforcement/Self-Defense_Sprays/Pepper_Spray/PEPPERGEL)

Sorry for the bump...

Mall Director, I fully realize your busy adjusting to your new schedule and such, but I was curious if this ever received one of your in depth evaluations?