Removing fire hoses from cabinets

[HotelSecurity]

With the holidays my fire prevention bureau is closed & I can't find the answer.

Most fire departments will not use the fire hose in the cabnets in hight rise buildings. They bring their own with them. (Bacause they know that their's will not have holes, be missing nozzels etc). The CSST (Quebec's OSHA) does not allow us to use the hoses except to protect an exit while evacuation a floor. Since we don't have protective gear we can not use the hoses to fight the fire.

New Years Eve & the night before & after bring us many many wild young people who come here to take advantage of our lpwer driniking age. They can get really rowdy & a lot of vabdalism occurs. In the past years it has involved turning on the fire hoses & damaging elevators & other electrical equipment.

The upper floors of the hotel are fully sprinklered. My question - Can we temporarily remove the hoses from the cabinets?

[LARMGUY]

With the holidays my fire prevention bureau is closed & I can't find the answer.

Most fire departments will not use the fire hose in the cabnets in hight rise buildings. They bring their own with them. (Bacause they know that their's will not have holes, be missing nozzels etc). The CSST (Quebec's OSHA) does not allow us to use the hoses except to protect an exit while evacuation a floor. Since we don't have protective gear we can not use the hoses to fight the fire.

New Years Eve & the night before & after bring us many many wild young people who come here to take advantage of our lpwer driniking age. They can get really rowdy & a lot of vabdalism occurs. In the past years it has involved turning on the fire hoses & damaging elevators & other electrical equipment.

The upper floors of the hotel are fully sprinklered. My question - Can we temporarily remove the hoses from the cabinets?

Of course not but you can arm the cabinets with an alarm.
Use wireless transmitters and a name brand alarm. The transmitters are addressable so you will know which sensor is open.

[SecTrainer]

With the holidays my fire prevention bureau is closed & I can't find the answer.

Most fire departments will not use the fire hose in the cabnets in hight rise buildings. They bring their own with them. (Bacause they know that their's will not have holes, be missing nozzels etc). The CSST (Quebec's OSHA) does not allow us to use the hoses except to protect an exit while evacuation a floor. Since we don't have protective gear we can not use the hoses to fight the fire.

New Years Eve & the night before & after bring us many many wild young people who come here to take advantage of our lpwer driniking age. They can get really rowdy & a lot of vabdalism occurs. In the past years it has involved turning on the fire hoses & damaging elevators & other electrical equipment.

The upper floors of the hotel are fully sprinklered. My question - Can we temporarily remove the hoses from the cabinets?

No - because this is also exactly the sort of occasion when a fire is also probably more likely to occur (someone brings in fireworks, for instance). Alarming the hose cabinets might be all you can do, and to justify that cost you'd have to have a handle on the total cost of the water damage you typically suffer.

What puzzles me is the general attitude of management about encouraging this kind of "business". Surely there must be other guests in the hotel who are not likely ever to return once they've experienced this madhouse - New Year's Eve or not. And they tell their friends, corporate booking agency, etc. You will never know about this lost business once a hotel earns this kind of a reputation.

And, if I'm not mistaken, this isn't the only time of year that the owner lets these little hoodlums take over the property, right? I just don't get it.

[HotelSecurity]

No - because this is also exactly the sort of occasion when a fire is also probably more likely to occur (someone brings in fireworks, for instance). Alarming the hose cabinets might be all you can do, and to justify that cost you'd have to have a handle on the total cost of the water damage you typically suffer.

What puzzles me is the general attitude of management about encouraging this kind of "business". Surely there must be other guests in the hotel who are not likely ever to return once they've experienced this madhouse - New Year's Eve or not. And they tell their friends, corporate booking agency, etc. You will never know about this lost business once a hotel earns this kind of a reputation.

And, if I'm not mistaken, this isn't the only time of year that the owner lets these little hoodlums take over the property, right? I just don't get it.

If a fire were to occur the sprinklers are still there. Like I wrote the hoses are there but legally we are not allowed to use them except to defend an exit, which the sprinklers would do & the fire department will not use them. I brought it up because I have seen a nearby mall that removed theirs once they added sprinklers.

The alarms are a good thing but our biggest loss from vandalism has been when water gets into the junction boxes of the fire alarm system. It only takes a few drops & costs $250.00 to replace. Even if it only took us seconds to get to where the hose was open, the damage would already be done.

In our métro stations, ones in the "bad" part of town the fire extingusihers have been removed from the cabinets & are placed behind locked doors with signs in the cabinets saying where they are. If this is legal....

ST what can I say about the owner accepting these groups. Everything you wrote is 100% true. Except the hotel not knowing the cost. True we will never know the cost of the negative word of mouth publlicity but we do see it on Tripadvisor etc & we do feel it in the refunds they have to give back the next morning :o After this we have a university games group coming Jan 7 & 8 then a ski group Jan 20. After that hockey groups. If the hotel would just stick to 1 segment of the market, liesure OR business then it would be easier. It's mixing the 2 that causes the headaches. But at this time of the year when the occupancy runs below 30% they say they have to take all they can get. It's also due to the economy. the more business people you have in the hotel the more you can charge & the less the punks want to come. Maybe one year when the costs of the extra security & refunds out weigh the profit they might, like other hotels have done, ban these groups.

[LARMGUY]

I am not trying to insult your intelligence. Some of your statements, example; protecting an exit?

You do know that sprinklers are only triggered by heat individually not zoned with multiple heads spraying when tripped or all of them when a pull station is activated as in the movies?

Removing existing fire hoses would have to be signed off by your AHJ.

Fire extinguisher in locked cabinets? :eek:

Do you have an annual fire inspection? Do you replace the extinguishers before the inspections?

[HotelSecurity]

I am not trying to insult your intelligence. Some of your statements, example; protecting an exit?

You do know that sprinklers are only triggered by heat individually not zoned with multiple heads spraying when tripped or all of them when a pull station is activated as in the movies?

Removing existing fire hoses would have to be signed off by your AHJ.

Fire extinguisher in locked cabinets? :eek:

Do you have an annual fire inspection? Do you replace the extinguishers before the inspections?

The health & safety laws are written in french. I might be using the wrong term when I say protecting the exits. What I mean is you can use the hose to push back flames that are coming out of a room & blocking an exit but since you are not wearing protective gear you can not continue to use the hose to fight the fire in the room.

I was offically the Fire Marshal of an hotel & am well aware of how sprinklers work :rolleyes: By the way deluge systems do work by zones & not by individual sprinkler heads going off when the temperature reaches 135F. (But we don't have deluge system, only in the computer room which has a Halon system where fire detection empties the halon cylinders through all the heads).

I hate abbreviations. What does AHJ mean?

I never said that we put the extinguishers in locked cabinets. I said that the city run transit commission permanelty removes some extinguishers from the cabinets & places them in locked storage rooms nearby. The put signs in the cabinets indicating where they are. All employees carry keys to the locked rooms. The logic is that if they were left in the cabinets they would be vandalized & of no use. At least when they are locked away they can be used by enmployees. As for putting them back before inspections,no they don't. I don't know how often the inspections are, the transit commisiiion has it's own fire prevention division. In my case I want to put them in an unlocked service area. They would be out of sight of the kids but not the staff.

A question - in a life safety situation what is more important - a 2 1/2 gallon pressuriized water fire extinguisher or an operating fire detection/evacuation system? The extinguishers are being discharged in the stairways disabling the fire detection/evacuation system.
BTW (I guess I do use abbreviations sometimes :)) We have 2 x 2 1/2 gallon pressurized water extinguishers in each of the 2 stairways per floor & 2 Halon extinguishers inside LOCKED rooms near the stairs. I've been at the hotel for 29 years & it has always been this way (except the halons used to be 5lbs CO2 & are being replaced with small ABC dry chemical extinguishers - although I'm pushing to have them replaced by AC Water Mists) & we have passed every city & insurance required fire inspection.

[SecTrainer]

"AHJ" is a term used in the fire alarm/suppression field. It means "authority having jurisdiction" - which in most cases is a city fire official. Without going into a lot of nitpicking details, the AHJ is basically the "last word" when it comes to the organization's total fire protection posture, including not only the systems (design, installation, testing and maintenance) but also things like evacuation plans, etc. They even have input into building design and construction itself - especially things like fire doors, wiring used in plenum (ceiling) spaces, emergency lighting, etc.

When it comes to anything fire-related, the other acronym for "AHJ" is "GOD". You can use them interchangeably. All people in the fire industry make regular sacrifices and offerings to the fire "GOD" (but not burnt offerings, of course!) :D

You mention that a mall removed its hoses after installing sprinklers. Undoubtedly, something like that would have gone through the AHJ's approval process and was probably part of the design plan for the sprinkler installation from the start.

In your case, I think you mention that it's not possible to get your suggestion approved (and it would take more time than you've got before New Year's Eve anyway). Without such approval, making any such major change to the fire systems as removing the hoses "on your own hook" would not only be ill-advised from a liability standpoint (could void your fire insurance), it could well be illegal depending on how your city has embodied the fire code into law.

I am in agreement with LARMGUY that alarming the hose cabinets would not represent a major modification of your system, PROVIDING that it's done in such a manner that access to the hoses is not hindered in any way and their functionality is not diminished.

The hoses might have a "vandalism value" of 100 and a "fire-suppression value" of only 1, but it doesn't matter. Leave them in place until and unless you have the AHJ's written permission to do otherwise. (And if you decide to pursue this, don't be surprised if getting approval requires seven truckloads of paper, the opinion of the Prelate of the Church of Abyssinia, and four years of waiting.)

[HotelSecurity]

"AHJ" is a term used in the fire alarm/suppression field. It means "authority having jurisdiction" - which in most cases is a city fire official. Without going into a lot of nitpicking details, the AHJ is basically the "last word" when it comes to the organization's total fire protection posture, including not only the systems (design, installation, testing and maintenance) but also things like evacuation plans, etc. They even have input into building design and construction itself - especially things like fire doors, wiring used in plenum (ceiling) spaces, emergency lighting, etc.

When it comes to anything fire-related, the other acronym for "AHJ" is "GOD". You can use them interchangeably. All people in the fire industry make regular sacrifices and offerings to the fire "GOD" (but not burnt offerings, of course!) :D

You mention that a mall removed its hoses after installing sprinklers. Undoubtedly, something like that would have gone through the AHJ's approval process and was probably part of the design plan for the sprinkler installation from the start.

In your case, I think you mention that it's not possible to get your suggestion approved (and it would take more time than you've got before New Year's Eve anyway). Without such approval, making any such major change to the fire systems as removing the hoses "on your own hook" would not only be ill-advised from a liability standpoint (could void your fire insurance), it could well be illegal depending on how your city has embodied the fire code into law.

I am in agreement with LARMGUY that alarming the hose cabinets would not represent a major modification of your system, PROVIDING that it's done in such a manner that access to the hoses is not hindered in any way and their functionality is not diminished.

The hoses might have a "vandalism value" of 100 and a "fire-suppression value" of only 1, but it doesn't matter. Leave them in place until and unless you have the AHJ's written permission to do otherwise. (And if you decide to pursue this, don't be surprised if getting approval requires seven truckloads of paper, the opinion of the Prelate of the Church of Abyssinia, and four years of waiting.)

So I guess our AHJ is as stated in this mission statement: "As stated in the Building Act, the mission of the Régie du bâtiment du Québec is "to ensure proper quality of construction work and the safety of the public who have access to a building or facilities intended for use by the public or who use installations independent of a building."

I would assume most AHJ draft their laws from the standards of the NFPA?

[LARMGUY]

So I guess our AHJ is as stated in this mission statement: "As stated in the Building Act, the mission of the Régie du bâtiment du Québec is "to ensure proper quality of construction work and the safety of the public who have access to a building or facilities intended for use by the public or who use installations independent of a building."

I would assume most AHJ draft their laws from the standards of the NFPA?

If that is French for Fire Marshal. ;) It looks like a loose translation to regulator of construction?
In my years in this business, no one tops the fire marshal. Also I would say reference the NFPA72 Life Safety, they are usually stricter rather than lax.

Here is a GE door window transmitter. http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSxA6R7KR8hrfx68_14g4xGnGAJKLPop qlc-91ZVmtBHNRqH6pBDgIt is self monitoring as to maintaining signal with panel and battery supervision.

Good luck buddy.

[SecTrainer]

So I guess our AHJ is as stated in this mission statement: "As stated in the Building Act, the mission of the Régie du bâtiment du Québec is "to ensure proper quality of construction work and the safety of the public who have access to a building or facilities intended for use by the public or who use installations independent of a building."

I would assume most AHJ draft their laws from the standards of the NFPA?

Typically, NFPA codes, the Uniform Building Code (UBC) or the International Building Code (IBC), etc. are simply enacted in their entirety into law with a very simple boilerplate "enablement" statute or ordinance that:

(a) Declares the code to be law (i.e., following the code is legally mandatory)
(b) Designates who is authorized to enforce the provisions of the code (the "AHJ" we discussed above), and
(c) Establishes the penalties for violations.

Sometimes a city will empower the "AHJ" with some latitude to modify the code, exempt certain structures from its provisions or make individual determinations that depart from the code in some way, etc. However, even when they don't do this, the codes themselves have quite a bit of latitude built in, which is why the "AHJ" - and NOT the code itself - has the "last word" as to what is permissible and what is not. You can "design to code" and "build to code" - but it's the AHJ who signs it off....or not.

[LARMGUY]

Typically, NFPA codes, the Uniform Building Code (UBC) or the International Building Code (IBC), etc. are simply enacted in their entirety into law with a very simple boilerplate "enablement" statute or ordinance that:

(a) Declares the code to be law (i.e., following the code is legally mandatory)
(b) Designates who is authorized to enforce the provisions of the code (the "AHJ" we discussed above), and
(c) Establishes the penalties for violations.

Sometimes a city will empower the "AHJ" with some latitude to modify the code, exempt certain structures from its provisions or make individual determinations that depart from the code in some way, etc. However, even when they don't do this, the codes themselves have quite a bit of latitude built in, which is why the "AHJ" - and NOT the code itself - has the "last word" as to what is permissible and what is not. You can "design to code" and "build to code" - but it's the AHJ who signs it off....or not.


Big thumbs up for this post.

[HotelSecurity]

So I did not remove the hoses. As a result 5 were pulled from the cabinets. 1 was turned on but the nozzel was shut so there was no water damage. I did remove the fire extingusihers but put them nearby NOT in a locked area but not in the stairways. (I am sure there was no law or regulation saying that they had to be in the stairway).